§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH,after referring to what had passed on a former evening (see p. 534), relative to the production of information respecting the affairs of India, said, he must again call the attention of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) to the preparation of the information to be laid before the Committee on East India affairs. Perhaps he had not correctly understood what fell from the noble Marquess; but if he had correctly collected it, the statement was, that no preparation had been made for the laying of this information before the Committee, and that it would be for Parliament or the Committee to ask for such documents as they might require. If that were indeed the actual state of things, it would be to him a subject of very deep regret; for, in the first place, he thought it would show that Her Majesty's Government were by no means alive to the peculiar impor- 749 tance of the question now to be submitted to the consideration of Parliament—a question upon the consideration of which they were to decide what should be the future government of India, under circumstances materially different from any which had hitherto existed. Then, in the second place, the want of preparation would be productive of very great and inconvenient delay; and it would be obvious that their Lordships, if left to themselves, would be able to collect but a very small amount of information, compared with what the Government would be able to procure by-taking proper measures in anticipation. He had understood the noble Marquess to say, that he had applied at the India House and at the Board of Control, and to have found a difficulty in getting the papers connected with his recall from India, which consequently had only been in his hands a short time before he spoke the other evening. Now, he could not imagine what could have been the difficulty, because the papers were at both offices, and at whichever office he applied he could have got them. They had at the India Board in their possession the letter in extenso which he wrote in vindication of his Indian policy, and they had at the India House the portion of that letter which was communicated to the Court by the President of the India Board. If the noble Marquess had now read these, he would be able to state distinctly what difficulty there was about producing them, and to tell the House whether any inconvenience would arise from his doing so. So far as he (the Earl of Ellenborough) could judge, not only would there be no inconvenience from their production, but it was absolutely necessary to the just consideration of the whole question. He could not (as the noble Marquess had on a former evening seemed to do), treat this as a question personal to himself. If the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Department thought it essential to the performance of his duties to recall Sir H. Smith, there could be no doubt that that was a public question of the greatest importance, not merely a personal question between him and Sir H. Smith. The noble Earl had publicly assigned his reasons for it; and he would think it an act of the grossest injustice were he to hesitate to communicate to Parliament any reply which Sir H. Smith might make, although he no longer continued to be the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope. No doubt the rea- 750 sons for his (the Earl of Ellenborough's) recall were not published; so much the worse, for that enabled people to put the worst construction upon it. He asked in justice to the people of India, as well as to himself, that these papers should be produced, for they were most deeply and essentially concerned in the relations between the Governor General and the authorities at home. He had stated that only a part of the letter which he had written in defence of his measures, had been communicated to the Court of Directors. If the noble Marquess thought that only that part of the letter should be produced, although lie should regret the decision, he would defer to it. But he did hope that at least that part of the letter which had been in the possession of the Court for seven years, might now be given to the whole world. If the noble Marquess had no objection, he would at once move for the production of that extract, and also of two enclosures in the letter sent to the Board of Control— namely, his letter from Gwalior in defence of the alterations in the administration of Saugur, and a minute on a purely legal question connected with the position of the fourth Member of the Council of India under the Act of Parliament, which had strangely 'seen adduced as one of the reasons for his recall.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwould first reply to the observations of the noble Earl on the production of papers for the information of the House, and also of the Committee hereafter to be appointed to consider the expediency of renewing the Company's Charter, The noble Earl had not stated correctly what he had said on a former evening. He had not stated that papers would not be presented by the Government, either to that House or the Committee; but he had stated, that in addition to the papers which Government would feel itself called upon to lay before Parliament and the Committee, it would be competent for the Committee, or for any member of it, to move for such papers as were necessary to enable it to form a competent judgment on the subject. Information, he repeated, would be laid before the House and the Committee when the inquiry was commenced, and then it would be in the power of the noble Earl to call upon the Committee to decide whether the information was complete, or whether more ought to be demanded. With regard to the information which the noble Earl wished to have laid before the Committee, relative to the cir- 751 cumstances and causes of his own recall, he had only to say that it would he his own wish to do full justice to the noble Earl, and to have all that information laid before the Committee. When he had stated on a former occasion that this was a personal question, he by no means meant to say that it was merely a personal question, and that it contained no matter of interest to the public; for a question touching the recall of a Governor General or a Commander-in-Chief might be of private interest, and yet deserving of the deepest inquiry and judgment of the public. At the same time, he submitted to the noble Earl himself that it might not be convenient to produce those papers and to make that inquiry which he proposed, as a particular case, and not in connexion with a general system. The case in question had now been before the public for the last eight years and more. It was not thought fit by the Government of that day to produce the papers connected with the noble Earl's recall, and Parliament had not called for any inquiry. The subject had slept ever since, and he should regret going at this time, and after so many successive Governments, into any inquiry into that single event. But, considered as one of a series of events, which marked the tone of the Government in India, and of the progress of the relations between the Governor General and the Court of Directors, it might be deserving of inquiry; and, in that point of view, he agreed with the noble Earl in thinking the papers might facilitate the inquiry, not as a matter by itself, but as a matter connected with the general system, and, therefore, it might be expedient, together with any information which might be called for by the Committee, to furnish such information as could be obtained with respect to the noble Earl's recall; and he should be happy to do his utmost to promote that object. He had read the papers in question, and with great interest; but in reading them he had found that that letter, which he had no doubt the noble Earl considered most material to his case, had no existence either in the records of the Board of Control, or in extenso at the East India House. One reason for this might be, that the Earl of Ripon, who was then President of the Board of Control, and who, unfortunately, did not now take much share in their debates, had considered it so far a private letter that he felt himself authorised to take it away with him when he left his office. Now, whether the noble Earl considered it a private letter or not, he 752 should like, before he consented to produce it as a public document, to communicate with the Earl of Ripon and with others. In justice to the noble Earl opposite, he was most anxious to produce all the information he could to illustrate that transaction, considered as a part of the whole system; but, for the reasons which he had already stated, he submitted that it would not be expedient to revive that particular case. He submitted to the noble Earl that he should not move now for these papers. He pledged himself that in the interval between this time and this day se'nnight he would ask Lord Ripon whether he had any, and what, objections to the production of these papers; and that, as soon as he received Lord Ripon's answer, he would communicate it to the noble Earl. He hoped that on consideration the noble Earl would make his Motion, not in that House, but in the Committee.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that after what had fallen from the noble Marquess, he should not press the Motion for the immediate production of the Papers. He was perfectly satisfied that the papers connected with the question of his recall should be considered in conjunction with all the great questions that would come before the Committee. By law, the Court of Directors had no power to send to India one single syllable of directions as to measures; and yet they had most strangely continued to have the power of recalling the Governor General, by whom the measures were to be executed—a vestige of a former state of things which had now ceased to exist. They had, too, the power to recall without the authority of the Crown the Governor General whom the Crown might think best fitted to carry into effect those measures which, through the Board of Control, the Court of Directors might be compelled to adopt. So monstrous an absurdity had never before obtained admission into the system for governing any empire. The reason he asked for this information was, that he thought the question, whether this state of things should continue, ought to come before the Committee, and that they should have the means of judging of the manner in which that authority was exercised in this particular instance. But even if the unanimous opinion of Parliament should be in favour of the manner in which that authority was exercised in this particular instance, it would not in the slightest degree touch the general question, of whether two such contradictory authorities should exist; 753 one having the power to order measures, and the other to remove the Governor charged with executing them. He had heard with the greatest astonishment the statement of the noble Marquess with respect to the non-appearance of his letter in the records of the Board of Control. He sent it to the Board of Control by the very first mail which left India after he knew of his recall. He obtained a knowledge of that on the 15th June; and his letter, which was dated July 4, must have been received in England in the beginning of September. Undoubtedly he (the Earl of Ellenborough) was not then in office, but still he had to defend himself; and would any man prevent Sir Harry Smith from writing a letter for presentation to Parliament, in defence of his conduct against the strictures of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey)? He heard with indignation that at the time an attempt was made to treat his letter as a private one, which could not, therefore, be sent to the Court; although it was a public letter, written by a public man, on a most important public matter It should have been so considered at first as it was at last, for he could show the noble Marquess a copy of Lord Ripon's letter to the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Court of Directors communicating the extract of that letter; and when he (the Earl of Ellenborough) understood that an extract only had been communicated, he wrote to Mr. Waterfield, one of the clerks and secretaries of the Board of Control, and from him or from Lord Ripon he had a distinct assurance that, although an extract only was communicated, the whole letter in extenso should be recorded at the Board of Control.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEthen gave notice that on Friday, the 27th inst., he should move the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the Expediency of renewing the Charter of the East India Company.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that he thought it would be convenient for him on that occasion to state, as succinctly as he could, the alterations which it appeared to him desirable to make in the present system of the Government of India —first, on the supposition that the Court of Directors were retained with powers similar to those which they possessed at present; and also, further, what fundamental alterations he thought it would be most expedient to make.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEre- 754 marked that it was open to the noble Earl to use his own discretion in stating his own opinions and views with respect to the subject of the Committee's inquiry; but he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) wished it to be understood that it was not his wish to anticipate inquiry, but that he wished the whole question should go to the Committee unfettered by any previous observations on the part of Government. It was upon the result of the inquiry of that Committee that Parliament would be called to come to a definite decision.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that he only wished to take that course which, considering the knowledge he had: of Indian affairs, would be most convenient, especially to the Government. He would reserve the statement of his views for the I Committee, if the noble Marquess wished.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEdid not wish to object to the noble Earl's taking the course which he might consider most convenient. But he wished to state that he did not think that it would he convenient that the Government, or Members who were not so well acquainted with the subject, should deliver their opinions.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that forty years ago Lord Grenville thought it of importance that the earliest announcement should be given of his opinions of the future government of India, and he took an opportunity of making them known to the House at a great length before the Committee was appointed.