Lords Sitting of 10 December 1852

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a West India Colonies, &c.; Loans Act Amendment; Commons Inclosure.

MILITARY EMIGRATION TO THE CAPE.
The DUKE of RICHMOND The DUKE of RICHMOND rose to present a Petition from Anthony Alexander O'Reilly, late a Colonel in Her Majesty's Service, and since a settler in the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, complaining of having suffered severe loss at the hands of the Kafirs, and praying for relief. The noble Duke knew nothing at all personally of the individual whose name was attached to it; but that gentleman had sent him a certificate of his having served as an officer in the British Army for fifty-two years, during which time it would appear, from general and private orders, that he had merited and gained the esteem of his commanding officers and fellow soldiers. This gentleman was, a few years ago, prevailed upon by the inducements which were held out by the late Government, and after fifty-two years' service in the Army, to dispose of his commission for the purpose of settling at the Cape of Good Hope. He accordingly took a farm there, and was going on remarkably well. He had a great quantity of stock, was possessed of the best implements of husbandry, and was in all respects a thriving farmer, when the Kafir war broke out—one of those "little wars" which had always proved so detrimental to this country, and which would have been settled immediately had they sent out 7,000, or 8,000 British Infantry at the beginning. The consequence was that the Kafirs made an inroad upon this gentleman's farm, seized his cattle and horses, the Hottentot levies deserted him, and it was with the utmost difficulty that he and his son escaped with their lives. By that inroad of the savages he was totally and

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entirely ruined; and now, after fifty-two years spent in the service of his country, the only way in which this gentleman was at present enabled to get a bit of bread to put in his mouth was by going to labour in the fields. Now, he (the Duke of Richmond) contended that this was a case of very great hardship. He contended also, that the Government ought not to recommend officers in the Army, or any other persons, to go out as settlers to the Colonies, unless they intended to protect them there against the inroads of savage tribes. And, moreover, he would say to old officers, if they would take his advice, "Stick to the Army, and don't go out as settlers," for nineteen out of twenty, after they became settlers, deeply regretted having left a service in which, at least, they had enjoyed a well-merited reputation. The case he had mentioned was, he repeated, one of very great hardship, and left a considerable amount of responsibility on the Government which encouraged such settlements. He did not know whether the Government at home could be of any service to the petitioner; still he did think that it was a case of very crying hardship, and one that, at all events, justified him in having occupied their Lordships' time and attention for a few moments.
The EARL of DESARTthanked the noble Duke for the notice he had given of his intention to present the petition, and assured him, that neither Her Majesty's Government nor he (the Earl of Desart) felt less commiseration than did his noble Friend himself for this gentleman's case. The facts of the case were these. This gentleman had served fifty-two years in the Army, but in 1848 he sold out, and availing himself of certain indulgences which were given by the Government, invested the proceeds of the sale of his commission, 4,000 l., in the purchase of land at the Cape of Good Hope; but at the end of the year 1851 an inroad of Kafirs took place upon his farm, and owing to the treachery of his servants he had difficulty in escaping with his life, his premises were destroyed, as the noble Duke bad stated, and he had since been compelled to work in the fields. He granted that it was a case which demanded the warmest commiseration; at the same time, however, it must be remembered that when this gentleman sold his commission, he assumed the character and placed himself exactly in the position of any other colonist at the Cape. Under these circumstances it was
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impossible that the Government could give compensation for losses so sustained. Their doing so now would involve the necessity of making compensation in every similar case which might arise.
Petition read and ordered to lie on the table.

RELATIONS OF LANDLORD AND TENANT IN IRELAND.
The EARL of RODENsaid, he was anxious to put a question to his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, on a subject of the deepest importance, not only to that part of the Empire to which it referred, hut to the Empire at large. In doing so, however, he must ask pardon of the noble Earl for having departed from the custom of that House, and omitted to give him the usual notice. It was now Friday night, and if he were then to give notice to the noble Earl, he would not have an opportunity of putting his question and receiving an answer until Monday, and he feared that great apprehension and anxiety would arise in the minds of those to whom the subject referred in the interval. On referring to the reports of the proceedings in the other House of Parliament, a few days ago, he confessed he was extremely surprised and alarmed to find, on the introduction of certain Rills connected with landlord and tenant arrangements in Ireland that one of the Bills so presented to the House was one that was better known by the name of "Mr. Sharman Crawford's Bill." Now, he begged to remind their Lordships that that measure had been twice at least under the consideration of the House of Commons, and on each occasion had been almost unanimously rejected. It had been conceded, not alone by Gentlemen seated on one side of the House or the other, but by men of all parties, that that Bill partook of a character which was calculated to overthrow the best interests of property in whatever country it might chance to become law. He was sure that no one in their Lordships' House would ever sanction so unjust a proposition, and therefore he had no fear of its over passing into law; but the circumstance to which he had alluded must, he was confident, have the effect of greatly agitating the minds of all persons who were possessed of property in Ireland, and of imparting feelings of triumph to those who having no property themselves wished to destroy the property of others. The night before last this measure was introduced with other measures to the con-

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sideration of the House of Commons, and with those other measures was proposed for a second reading, and the proposer of that second reading was one of Her Majesty's Ministers, a colleague of his noble Friend at the head of the Government. He (the Earl of Roden) would not attempt to express what must be the feelings of all loyal men, all men of property in Ireland, when they found that, so far as they had gone, Her Majesty's Ministers seemed to have sanctioned a measure which contained propositions of so Communist a character that it had been twice rejected by the House of Commons as one which it was totally impossible that Parliament could give its assent to. The question which he would take the liberty of putting to his noble Friend was, whether the proceedings which had been adopted in the other House of Parliament had been taken with his sanction; and in case the Select Committee to which the Bill had been referred should unhappily sanction the measure as one proper to be adopted, whether Her Majesty's Government were prepared to support and carry it into law?
The EARL of DERBYsaid, he had no difficulty in answering the question of his noble Friend, because his attention had been called to the matter he referred to yesterday or the day before by some of the representatives for Ireland, who shared in the apprehensions-which his noble Friend entertained in consequence of what took place in the House of Commons two or three nights ago. But in order to make intelligible what did take place on that occasion, he would explain what his noble Friend might be perfectly familiar with, but some of their Lordships might not so well know—the circumstances under which the transaction took place to which his noble Friend had adverted. It was in the knowledge of his noble Friend, and, probably, of most of their Lordships, that the attention of the Irish Government, and especially of the Attorney General for Ireland, of whom he might say that no Government had ever had the services of a more able, zealous, and useful officer, had since their accession to office been directed to the best means of developing the resources of Ireland, of encouraging the application of capital to the land of Ireland, and of improving the relations subsisting between landlord and tenant in Ireland; and however delicate and difficult some portions of that subject might be, he was sure their Lordships would admit that there was no
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subject which more deserved, and particularly at this moment, the attention of those who were anxious to see the landed property of Ireland recovering from the depressed condition in which in which it had been for the last few years. The consequence of the attention which the Irish Government gave to this subject was, that, with great pain and labour, the Attorney General for Ireland, more especially assisted by the Solicitor General and the Chief Secretary for Ireland, prepared what might be almost considered as a code of laws having reference to the relations between landlord and tenant, comprised in four separate Bills, every one having distinct objects, but all connected closely together, and bearing upon one another. The first of these Bills had, he believed, the effect of facilitating the application of capital to land by the tenant for life, the tenant for life being, under certain circumstances, authorised to charge the expense as an advance from himself personally to the estate, consequently rendering facilities for the application of capital to land. The second Bill gave facilities, under certain circumstances, for the application of capital to the land by the tenants, with the consent of their landlords, subject to the control and superintendence of the Board of Works especially, the machinery of which had been employed with great success of late years in Ireland. The third was a most important Bill for consolidating and bringing into one statute the whole of the law having reference to the relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland—a work of great detail and involving much consideration, but which, if successfully carried into effect, would not only materially improve, but greatly simplify and render of much more easy reference, the existing law, which was now spread over some hundred of statutes. The fourth Bill was intended to settle the terms under which compensation could he claimed by the tenant and enforced against the land-land for unexhausted improvements, subject to certain restrictions and regulations. These four Bills, all bearing upon one another, stood a few nights ago for a second reading in the House of Commons; and he thought their Lordships would readily agree that if they were to pass at all, or receive due consideration by Parliament, it was desirable that no time should be lost with a view of obtaining a second reading of those Bills, and in order that they might be sent with the least delay to the investigation of Com-

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mittees. Those of their Lordships who had experience in dealing with questions of that kind would also be further of opinion, that in order properly to discuss measures which involved such details, it was expedient that they should be referred, not to a Committee of the whole House, but, in the first instance, to a Select Committee. Now, if the second reading of those Bills had been postponed until after Christmas, considering that Easter would fall very early next year, and that very few days would be at the disposal of the Government between Christmas and Easter, there might be considerable risk that the second reading would not take place until after the Easter recess; and in that case they must be aware that the passing of the Bills in that Session would be absolutely impossible. It was thought desirable, therefore, that these Bills should proceed to a second reading, and be referred to the consideration of a Select Committee. At the same time, it happened that there was a Bill in the House of Commons which had been brought in by an independent Member—a learned Gentleman (Mr. Serjeant Shee) who had recently, for the first time, taken his seat In that House, which was, in some respect, pari materia, founded upon a different principle from that of the Attorney General for Ireland, but dealing with the question of compensation to the tenant for exhausted improvements. That Bill was, in substance, the one which his noble Friend had referred to as having been brought in by Mr. Sharnian Crawford in former Sessions of Parliament, which had in former Sesssons been rejected, and which he (the Earl of Derby) trusted would in future Sessions also be rejected; because he had no hesitation in saying, that he thought that the principle on which the Bill was framed was entirely subversive of all rights of property; and he was quite certain it would never be passed into a law either by the present or any future House of Commons that was desirous of maintaining the just rights of property, while disposed to give due encouragement to the improvement of the land. Now as this Bill was pari materia with one of the four Bills introduced by the Attorney General for Ireland, it was thought it might be difficult to obtain the assent of the House of Commons to the immediate passing of the second reading of the four Bills of the Government, and their immediate reference to a Select Committee, without, at the same time, giving an opportunity to the
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hon. and learned Gentleman who introduced the other Bill, of having his measure placed in juxtaposition and comparison with the Bills of the Attorney General for Ireland, and of sending them to be investigated by the same Committee. Therefore, it might be technically true, though he (the Earl of Derby) was not certain that it was so, that the second reading of that Bill was moved by a Member of the Government; but if it were so moved, he was confident it was on the distinct and positive declaration made at the time that the taking of the second reading of that Bill was merely pro formâ, for the purpose of referring it, together with the other measures, to the consideration of the Select Committee; that it involved no assent to the principle of that measure, and that Her Majesty's Government were so far from sanctioning the principle of that measure, that they wore decidedly opposed to the main principle, and to the provisions contained in the bill of Serjeant Shee. If, therefore, any step had been taken which apparently forwarded this measure, it had been taken only for the purpose of bringing it in juxtaposition and comparison with the Bills of the Attorney General for Ireland, which were founded upon a different principle; and he had no hesitation in saying that, although he thought the course which had been taken by the House of Commons was, on the whole, a sound and wise one, as tending to give an opportunity for a full and ample consideration of the most important question, yet he was as opposed, as his noble Friend himself could be, to the principle of the Bill introduced by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Serjeant Shoe). He thought it as destructive of the rights of property as his noble Friend did, and he could not believe that any Committee, representing the opinions of a considerable number of the Members of the House of Commons, would sanction the adoption of that principle or the passing of that Bill; and further, whatever might be the opinion of the Committee, he was satisfied that no such sanction would be given by her Majesty's Government to the passing of a measure, the effect of which appeared to him to be that of an absolute confiscation of property. At the same time, proceeding, as he hoped the Committee would do, on the basis laid down by the Attorney General for Ireland on the part of the Government, he thought it would be useful for the Committee to have before them the measure by which the hon. Gentleman proposed to deal with the same

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question; for there might be details with respect to which some useful modifications might be adopted, and advantages gained from a comparison of the views of persons starting from different points, but desirous at the same time of legislating for the interest of the improving tenant. He repeated, that the passing of the second reading of the Bill of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Serjeant Shee) must not be taken in the slightest degree as any indication of a disposition on the part of the Government to countenance its principle, the object of referring that measure to a Committee being solely to give more ample opportunity for the consideration of an important question involving a variety of details, which, if brought to a satisfactory issue, would confer a great benefit on all persons interested in the land of Ireland.
The EARL of WICKLOWhad no doubt the explanation of the noble Earl would give general satisfaction; but he was bound to say that he thought he had not given sufficient consideration to the importance which attached to the admission of a principle of a Bill by agreeing to the second reading. As the obnoxious measure in question had been rejected by all preceding Governments, he was the more surprised that a Government which had brought forward such admirable measures to carry their object into effect, should have assented to the second reading. He believed that the Bills laid before the House of Commons by the Irish Attorney General would give general satisfaction to the country; they were both desirable and necessary, and in their preparation that learned Gentleman had shown great information and research. He trusted that the statement of the noble Earl would remove any disagreeable impression which might exist in Ireland or in this country, owing to the circumstance already reverted to.
The EARL of DERBYwas glad to find that the noble Earl had made himself so thoroughly acquainted with the principle and details of the Bills introduced by Her Majesty's Government; and he was glad also to have that opportunity of correcting any misapprehension-if it prevailed—as to the extent which the Government could be supposed to have admitted the principle of Serjeant Shee's Bill by the course which was taken in the House of Commons the other night. He could assure his noble Friend, that not only was it the practice of their Lordships' House frequently to permit a second reading to be
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taken pro forma for the purpose of discussing a Bill at another stage, but in the present instance the opinion of the highest authority in the House of Commons had been asked, and he had distinctly stated that there could be no assent to the principle when it was announced that it was taken pro formâ. Moreover, when two Bills were presented at the same time, founded upon different principles, and the House gave a second reading to both, surely it could not be supposed that they gave their assent to the principle of both, when their only object was to refer them to a Select Committee.
The EARL of ST. GERMANSbelieved that a number of Members had left the House of Commons on the evening when these Bills were before it, under the impression that it was not the intention of the Government to accede to the proposition relative to Mr. Serjeant Shee's Bill, and it was with great surprise they heard next morning what had been done. He thought it was an unfortunate proceeding, because very erroneous impressions would in consequence be produced in Ireland, and a great stimulus given to the proceedings of the body who had formed themselves into something like a Convention in that country. When addressing their Lordships on this subject, he could not but refer to the labours of Mr. Tighe Hamilton, a gentleman who had held an important office under the Irish Government. He had not seen any Bill prepared by that gentleman, but he had read the pamphlet in which he described the main propositions of a measure upon this subject, and it appeared to him that they were in many respects preferable to the measure proposed by the Government.
The EARL of DERBYdid not wish to canvass the pamphlet of Mr. Tighe Hamilton. He had not seen that pamphlet; but it would be extraordinary if, in a great degree, his plan did not resemble the present measure; because, though a charge had been made in the House of Commons that the Attorney General for Ireland had borrowed his Bills from Mr. Tighe Hamilton, the fact was that the Attorney General had not seen that gentleman's pamphlet— whilst Mr. Tighe Hamilton had prepared his details from a work by Mr. Vance and another gentleman, which had been executed under the direction, superintendence, co-operation, and advice of the Attorney General: consequently, if the Attorney General had borrowed at all, he had bor-

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rowed from his own original work, and not from Mr. Tighe Hamilton's pamphlet. House adjourned to Monday next.