Lords Sitting of 2 December 1852

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Ponsonby.
PUBLIC BILL—la Bank Notes.

COMMERCIAL LEGISLATION.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: My Lords, in reference to the conversation which took place the other evening, I wish to state shortly to your Lordships the course I now propose to take, in regard to a Resolution which I had intended to move, and which, I thought this House should adopt. I stated the other evening that nothing was so much in my mind as to obtain from your Lordships' House aft unanimous Resolution, or one as nearly unanimous, as the great and important subject to which it referred would possibly admit of. I think there would have been the greatest possible advantage if the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Derby) had thought it right to adopt the Resolutions which have been come to by the other House of Parliament. I think there would have been great advantage, great force, and great weight in the two Houses adopting a concurrent vote on this question. But I am free to say that I think there will still be great advantage in recording the opinion of this House to be unchanged—such as it was when it passed the measure of 1846, and such as it has been proved to be on different occasions since that time, when the commercial policy of the country has been discussed in this House. I think, I say, there will he a great advantage in a unanimous, or nearly a unanimous, vote on this subject, by which your Lordships may avoid all those personal and

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recriminatory attacks to which unfortunately the subject might lead, but which would tend to no public advantage. With this view it was my hope, indeed, that your Lordships would have adopted the Resolutions adopted by the House of Commons; and I was very much surprised when the noble Earl stated that he had an objection to those Resolutions. I am not going to canvass the grounds of that objection, such as they might be indicated from anything which fell from the noble Earl on that occasion, or such as I myself might suppose them to be. I am not going to argue on the subject at all. It has been my desire to find words which should accord with the suggestion thrown out by the noble Earl as well as I could, in order to attain as nearly as I could the main object I had in view—namely, the pronouncing of an opinion by this House, if not unanimous, yet agreed to by a large majority, although I might fail in obtaining a concurrent vote with that of the other House of Parliament. I therefore thought it right to take a Motion which was made, by way of Amendment, by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the House of Commons, and upon that to frame a Resolution for your Lordships' consideration, which would be in substance and in meaning the same as the Amendment moved in the House of Commons, but which should contain some difference in language, which I thought, upon constitutional grounds, and upon other grounds, it might be advisable to make, without introducing any matter that might be deemed objectionable to your Lordships, especially to those by whom that Resolution must have been approved. I have conferred, however, with the noble Earl opposite; and, he approving rather of the words which he himself has prepared as the draft of a Resolution, I certainly shall not give this House the trouble of dividing, or entering into any violent or warm discussion, on the subject, provided the noble Earl, on reconsideration, thinks that the form of words, to which I see no strong objection, is calculated to convey the meaning which we all desire to express, in the least objectionable terms. I shall read the Resolution which I have prepared, and which I had intended to offer to your Lordships, provided it had been accepted. But this I think it right to say if I find myself driven to come to a contest in this House, and to a hostile controversy and division, I shall cer-
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tainly think it my duty to take a stand on the Resolutions passed by the House of Commons. I shall not have foregone the advantage which I think I shall have had, of being supported by the high authority which passed those Resolutions; nor should I have abandoned them except for the chance of obtaining that which I wish so much—namely, a unanimous vote of this House. I wish, however, that this matter should not be hostilely moved or discussed at all. I shall not oppose the adoption of the form of words which the noble Earl thinks the most advisable. But it is only proper that I should read to your Lordships the Resolution which I myself have prepared, and which I think most fitting under the circumstances. It is in these words:—
"That this House acknowledges with satisfaction that the cheapness of provisions, occasioned by recent legislation, has mainly contributed to improve the condition of the country and increase the comfort of the industrious classes; and that unrestricted competition having been adopted, after due deliberation, as the principle of our commercial system, this House is of opinion that it is wise and expedient unreservedly to adhere to that policy."
I confess I see nothing that any noble Lord on either side of the House ought to object to in such a Resolution as this. I only hope that the opinion of this House may be recorded in a satisfactory manner on this question. I do not wish to make any repetition of any of the hostile controversies we have had on the subject. All I thought it my duty to do was, in a constitutional point of view, to see that, at a time when Parliament was assembled to pronounce their opinion on a great question, the opinion of this House should be taken, as well as the opinion of the other House of Parliament. I thought it right in a constitutional point of view; and I only wished to submit such a Resolution to your Lordships as I could concur in without any dereliction of principle, and as noble Lords with whom I formerly differed in opinion on this question might concur in without any feeling of pain; and I shall be content that the opinion of this House shall be recorded in any language that fully recognises the policy on which the country has entered.
The EARL of DERBY: My Lords, I must, in the first place, express the satisfaction which I have felt at the calm and temperate manner in which the noble Marquess has treated the qnestion of which he had given me notice, that he intended to

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bring it under your Lordships' consideration. The subject is one on which, in the position in which the country is now placed, I am bound to say that my wish is in accordance with that of the noble Marquess—that, if it is to be decided by a Resolution of the House, it shall be decided by a Resolution couched in such terms as will have the least possible chance of giving rise to a conflict of opinions among your Lordships. I might not, perhaps, myself have taken very great objection to the terms of the noble Marquess' Motion, because I believe that, undoubtedly, combined with other causes, the cheapness of provisions occasioned by recent legislation has contributed to increase the comforts of the labouring classes and of the working classes generally: yet, I think it more desirable that we should not raise discussion—invited by these words of the noble Marquess—by going back to the question as to what degree or to what extent that cheapness of provisions has been the main cause of the increased comfort of the labouring classes. Beyond that, however, the noble Marquess assumed that there is a great increase in the prosperity of the country generally. My object is to couch the Resolution in such terms as would recognise to the fullest extent the adherence of your Lordships' House to the principle now sanctioned by the vote of the House of Commons, and which I am bound to say has also been sanctioned by the general opinion of the country; and at the same time to avoid entering on any topic with regard to the past that could by possibility raise any controversy. I apprehend the noble Marquess and those who act with him are desirous most firmly to secure the adherence of this House to that policy which I am bound to say the country has, by a large majority, signified its determination to uphold; and I am satisfied that the noble Marquess' object will be best effected by dealing with the future only, provided the terms of the Resolution are as clear and definite with regard to the future as he has done me the honour to say he considers the words to be which I have suggested. The terms which I propose should be submitted to your Lordships' consideration, and which I will be happy to place in the hands of the noble Marquess, in order that he may, if he thinks fit, move them as a Resolution brought forward by himself are these:—
"That this House, thankfully acknowledging the general prosperity, and deeply sensible of the
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evils attending frequent changes in the financial policy of the country, adheres to the commercial system recently established, and would view with regret any renewed attempt to disturb its operations or impede its further progress."
It appears to me that this Resolution contains as unreserved and distinct an adoption of the existing commercial policy as noble Lords opposite can desire; while at the same time it is likely to obtain the concurrence of those who doubted the expediency of the recent change in the first instance—who doubted the policy of the measure of 1846—who, even now, if the controversy were to begin again, might desire to see a different policy adopted, but, who, nevertheless, being sensible of the evils which must result from constant changes in our financial system, will readily acquiesce in the continuance of a system established seven years ago. The introduction into the Resolution of unnecessary allegations can have no other effect than to keep alive a feeling of irritation and disquietude in the country. On these grounds, I submit my Resolution to your Lordships, and I am glad to hear that the noble Marquess is not unwilling to adopt it in lieu of his own. It is for him to determine whether he will move it now, or give notice on the subject. I cordially join with the noble Marquess in wishing that, from this moment, the controversy as to the relative merits of protection or free trade may be put an end to, and that no attempt may be made to disturb the system recently adopted.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE: I accept the noble Earl's words instead of my own Resolution. Personally I should prefer moving the noble Earl's Resolution immediately; but, looking to the importance of the subject, I do not think it would be right to deviate from the usual course. I therefore give notice that I will move the Resolution on Monday, but I shall not think it necessary to address your Lordships, nor do I anticipate that any discussion will arise.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: I wish the noble Marquess would reconsider his determination, and move the Resolution at once. If he postpones it to Monday, there may be a debate; but if he moves it now, there will be none at all. I think both Resolutions equally unnecessary, and would rather avoid a useless debate.
The EARL of DERBY: I am not sure whether the noble Marquess has decisively made up his mind as to whether he will

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move the Resolution now, or give notice for Monday. As far as I am concerned, I think there is a great deal of good sense in the observations of the noble Earl who spoke last.
The MARQDESS of CLANRICARDE: I am far from dissenting from the noble Earl's last sentence; but I think it is desirable not to depart from the rule observed under ordinary circumstances. I think that on so serious a subject, and one which occupied the attention of the other House for several nights, it would hardly be in keeping with the dignity of the House to move the Resolution without notice. Besides, the proceeding might be drawn into a precedent, and noble Lords, founding themselves on it, might move Resolutions of great importance without previous notice.
The EARL of DERBY: As the noble Marquess has referred to precedent, I beg to express a hope that the length of the discussion in the other House may not be taken as a precedent by your Lordships.
House adjourned till To-morrow.