Lords Sitting of 20 May 1851

MINUTES."
Reported.—Property Tax.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Exchequer Bills; Indemnity; Apprentices and Servants.

ADMINISTRATION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE IMPROVEMENT BILL—PREVENTION OF OFFENCES BILL.
House in Committee.
LORD CAMPBELLstated that the operation of these Bills extended to Ireland; and he had received a letter from the Lord Justice Clerk of Scotland, requesting that a part of their provisions might be extended to Scotland also. He (Lord Campbell) should be most willing to follow his advice; but as only a part of the provisions were applicable to Scotland, he recommended that a separate Bill should be introduced for that purpose. He would either introduce it himself, or if the Lord Advocate introduced it, he would lend his best assistance to carry it through Parliament.
Amendments made: the report thereof to be received on Thursday next.

CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.
LORD WHARNCLIFFErose to put a question to his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies on a subject on which some explanation was certainly required. It would be in the recollection of some of their Lordships that about a month ago—he believed on the 15th of April—a gentleman of high authority, who took a great interest in the affairs of the Cape of Good Hope, proposed in the other House of Parliament that a Commission appointed by the Crown should be sent out from this country to inquire into the state of affairs in that colony. It would also be in their recollection that the Government met the
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proposition of that Gentleman (Mr. Adderley) by a counter proposition, negativing the appointment of a Commission, and proposing an inquiry by a Select Committee of the House of Commons. One of the principal grounds of opposition to the appointment of a Commission was stated to be that it would interfere with the operations and diminish the effectiveness of the authority of the local Government of that colony. [See 3 Hansard, cxvi. 226.] With the assent of Ministers, a Committee of the House of Commons was appointed; but the Committee was not named at the time, and indeed was not named till the 9th of the present month. The members of that Committee had not yet sat. It was stated by Ministers in the course of the debate on the 15th of April, that if it should appear to the members of the Committee that a commission should be sent out to the Cape of Good Hope to make inquiries on the spot, no objection would be taken to such a measure. As yet there had not been any opportunity of obtaining the opinion of that Committee, for, as he had stated, the Committee had not yet sat. It appeared, however, that a commission had been appointed to inquire into the present condition of that colony; and under these circumstances he now asked his noble Friend to explain the motives which had induced the Government to appoint this commission, the powers which had been intrusted to it, and the special objects into which it had been authorised to inquire.
EARL GREYsaid, that it was perfectly true that it was proposed in the other House that a Commission of Inquiry should be sent to the Cape of Good Hope, and that that proposition was objected to on the part of Her Majesty's Government, on the ground that the appointment of Commissioners of that description would interfere materially with the powers and functions of the Governor, and introduce much confusion into the affairs of the colony; and also on the ground that the general state of affairs at the colony had more than once been a subject of inquiry, and that further inquiry on that point was not required. At the same time it was stated that, as the war which had unfortunately broken out would render it necessary to apply to Parliament for a considerable grant to meet its expense, Her Majesty's Government thought it only reasonable that, before that vote was applied for, a Committee of the House of Commons should be appointed, before whom should

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be laid the information connected with that subject, so that the Committee might be satisfied of the necessity for the expenditure. Although, however, he believed that the appointment of a commission of inquiry as proposed by Mr. Adderley, would have been extremely inconvenient, he thought that although a commission of inquiry on the spot might not be necessary; yet that under the difficult circumstances in which he was placed, Sir H. Smith required some further assistance. When Sir H. Pottinger was sent out to the Cape of Good Hope at the end of 1846, he held, besides the appointment of Governor, a separate and distinct commission, by which he was appointed Her Majesty's High Commissioner for the adjustment of the affairs of the border tribes. And although, perhaps, no distinct or definite powers were conveyed by that Commission, it still pointed out one of the most important duties which he was expected to perform, and invested him with a certain degree of authority over the persons with whom he had to deal in that capacity. When Sir H. Pottinger was promoted to a higher office, and went to India, Sir H. Smith was appointed in the same terms High Commissioner for the affairs of the border tribes; and what was now intended by Her Majesty's Government, was to appoint two assistant commissioners tinder Sir H. Smith, for the management of this same business. It was not strictly a commission of inquiry, for he did not believe that inquiry would throw much light on the actual condition of affairs on the borders of the colony, or in the colony itself; nor did he think that it was likely to lead to any change in the policy to be adopted, for that policy had been carefully considered, and the views of all the different persons who had considered it coincided upon almost every important point. These views were adopted so long ago as 1845, on the recommendation of Sir Benjamin D'Urban; they were fully stated in a despatch which he (Earl Grey) addressed to Sir H. Pottinger at the time he proceeded to the Cape; they were adopted by Sir H. Pottinger in the course of his administration, and were mainly in accordance with those adopted by Sir H. Smith, when he succeeded to office. But although the general principles of the policy to be adopted were generally concurred in, there was much practical difficulty in their application. There were many questions of great nicety and complexity arising from the disputes of the
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border tribes, particularly with reference to the occupation of land, which required to be promptly decided, and when decided to be promptly executed—indeed, he believed that to a want of means deciding and enforcing the rights of the various parties, might he attributed many of the difficulties that had lately arisen. Now, although Sir H. Smith was appointed commissioner for this purpose, he must necessarily at the present time be so much occupied with the command of the military forces, and with the general direction of the civil government of the colony, that it was not possible for him to give that minute attention to these questions which was necessary for their prompt and satisfactory adjustment. He (Earl Grey) thought it of extreme importance—considering the state of affairs at the Cape, the number of private interests that were involved, and the manner in which, unfortunately, party spirit had been enlisted in questions that had arisen there—that, in the adjustment of these various points in dispute, and the grievances alleged by different classes of the population, which had led to the revolt of one very numerous class of the population whose assistance in the former war was of great value, Sir Harry Smith should have the assistance of able and impartial persons, who were at the same time intimately acquainted with the affairs of the colony. It was with that view that choice had been made of two gentlemen who had greatly distinguished themselves in the late Kaffir war, and had since left the colony without any intention of returning to it; but who had now, from a sense of public duty, though at considerable inconvenience to themselves, accepted the offices of assistant commissioners under Sir H. Smith, for the adjustment of these affairs. One was Major Hogg, who had been captain in the 7th Dragoons when that regiment was employed at the Cape, who was then entrusted by Sir H. Pottinger with the duty of raising the Hottentot levies during the wars, and who had so much influence with them that he was enabled to raise a large body of men whose services were of the greatest value. The other gentleman was Mr. Owen, who went to the colony a very young man, immediately after taking his degree at Oxford, resided there some time, and had the great advantage of speaking the Kaffir language with great facility. He had only returned to this country in May last, and there were the highest testimonials to his merit both from

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Sir H. Pottinger and Sir H. Smith. These were the grounds upon which their appointment had been made, and he trusted that they would be of the greatest service in assisting Sir H. Smith.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEasked his noble Friend whether he had any objection to the production of this commission?
EARL GREYwould rather that his noble Friend should not move for the production of this commission at present, as in a few days he should lay on their Lordships' table additional papers explanatory of the state of affairs in this colony, and this commission would be among them.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that if the noble Earl had really been desirous of giving assistance to Sir H. Smith in the difficult position in which he was now placed, he would have done so better by sending out to him two regiments instead of two commissioners.
EARL GREYhad to inform the noble Earl, that on the first receipt of the late intelligence from the Cape of Good Hope considerable reinforcements had been sent out to Sir H. Smith, and that more would speedily leave this country for the same destination. Though he agreed with the noble Earl that it was important Sir H. Smith should have a strong military force at his command and under his disposal, yet he also maintained that that officer should have sufficient assistance to carry on, he would not say negotiations—for that was not exactly the word—but to carry on his dealings with the native tribes, to keep in allegiance such of them as were faithful to us, and to make their services useful and available.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHknew something of the doings of those who were called "politicals," who had often interfered very adversely with military officers. If the political and military measures of the colony were to be mixed up together, it was only adding a new element of danger to those which were already impending-over that colony. It was the opinion of one of the highest authorities on military affairs, that it was better to have one bad general than three good ones, if they chanced to differ. The noble Earl had one good general already; but why should he send out two inefficient agents to thwart him?
EARL GREYentertained as strong an opinion as the noble Earl did of the necessity of having a concentration of authority. It was on that account he had objected to
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the appointment of a commission of inquiry. If the noble Earl had done him the honour to listen to what he said, he would have heard him declare distinctly that, though the two commissioners were to be associated with Sir H. Smith in the commission, they were not be equals, but to act under him as subordinates. He had yet to learn that even the Emperor Napoleon did not attach value to the assistance of good officers acting under him.
Subject at an end.

REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that by the direction of the Select Committee, to whom their Lordships had referred the Bill for the Registration of Deeds and Assurances affecting Land, he had to report that Bill, and to state briefly the course adopted by the Committee. He was particularly anxious to do so, as a rumour had been industriously propagated by the enemies of the measure that the Committee had qua-relied, and found the measure wholly valueless. So far was this from being true, that the Committee was throughout unanimous, and entertained the most auspicious hopes that the measure would now pass into a law; and the Committee first took into consideration the petitions against the Bill which the House had referred to them. He believed that all the petitions were from solicitors. One, which was from the solicitors of London, confined its objection to the principle of the Bill, stating that in their experience there had been few instances of persons who had purchased landed property losing it through a bad title. He believed that was true; but the allegation of the frequent occurrence of such losses never was made a foundation of this measure. Its foundation was the enormous expense and trouble arising from the existing state of the law, and from the necessity of taking precautions to guard against danger. There wore also petitions from country attorneys, not objecting to the principle of the Bill, but praying for district register offices; and he could not help suspecting that the hope of being registrar, or deputy or assistant registrars, in these various districts, had influenced the opinions which they had formed upon the subject. The Committee, however, were of opinion that there must either be one registry for England and Wales, or that the measure must be abandoned altogether. These district offices would entail an enormous expense, and the

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work could not be done by them nearly as well or as conveniently as by one metropolitan office. All England and Wales might now he considered one great city; and such was the facility of communication with London, that it was frequently more easy to get at the metropolis than at the county town. The next question was, whether maps should be issued as supplemental to the indexes; and upon this point the Committee, after hearing the question elaborately argued, came to the conclusion that maps would be highly desirable, but that at present there were not maps in existence sufficient to start the measure, and that it would be necessary to postpone it for an indefinite time, if they were to wait for them. It had been supposed that by the maps of the Ordnance Survey, and the maps for the commutation of tithes, and for the parochial assessments, maps might have been found for every part of the kingdom, that would have formed a foundation for the registration of deeds; but it was found that the Ordnance maps were very far in arrear, and that those for the commutation of tithes and the parochial assessments were very imperfect. He hoped, however, that in the course of a few years there might be accurate maps for every county in England, which might assist the system of registration. The original Bill had been drawn introducing maps; but the Committee had directed it to be re-drawn, omitting the clauses which related to the maps, and in that shape he now had the honour of presenting it to their Lordships. He trusted that the time had now come when this great measure would at length be passed into law. It was most violently opposed now, as it was twenty years ago, by the attorneys, who thought that it would diminish their business. He believed, however, that this was an error; for when conveyancing was simplified and the expense lessened, he had no doubt that the business in this branch of the profession would be greatly increased. He had no doubt that the attorneys would use all their influence against the Bill in the other House of Parliament, where, no doubt, from their connexion with many of the Members, they had great influence. He hoped, however, that their Lordships would show their approval of the measure by the unanimity with which they gave it their support. He begged to present the Report of the Select Committee with Amendments, and to move that the Bill be reprinted in its
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amended form, and taken into consideration on Friday next.
LORD COLCHESTERsaid a few words in approval of the Bill.
LORD BEAUMONTthought this measure would be a great boon to the country. The conviction of the necessity of such a measure was the growth of many years, and had received the sanction and support of all the law Lords and of noble Lords of all political opinions. The only parties who were opposing it were those interested in the continuance of the evils of the present system—the attorneys and solicitors. He regretted the opposition of the solicitors to the Bill. They objected to a central registration, but they admitted that the local system was imperfect. They objected to the depositing of the original deeds, and thought that it would be enough to deposit memorials; but it was notorious that memorials were quite insufficient, and that they sometimes misled. As to the expense, he believed that a central registration would be less expensive than a local system.
Motion agreed to. Bill committed to a Committee of the whole Mouse on Friday next.

PROPERTY TAX BILL.
House in Committee.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he wished the noble Marquess opposite to afford him some information as to the interpretation to be put upon the clause which had been introduced into this Bill for the purpose of enabling tenant-farmers, whose profits and gains had fallen short of their existing assessment, to obtain an abatement in the amount which they formerly contributed to the tax. The third clause of the Bill provided, that—
"If at the end of the year of assessment any person occupying land for the purpose of husbandry only, and obtaining his livelihood principally by husbandry, who should be assessed under Schedule B, should prove to the satisfaction of the Commissioners that his profits and gains arising from the occupation of such lands fell short of the sum on which the assessment was made, it should be lawful for him, on appeal made within three months of the expiration of the year, to cause an abatement to be made proportionate to the deficiency of his profits."
He (the Earl of Ellenborough) was in the habit of acting as a Property Tax Commissioner, and he wished to call attention to the difficulty which he should experience in giving a property construction to this new clause. It was well known that the ex-

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penditure of a farmer, and his profit upon that expenditure, did not both occur in the same year. A farmer possessed of capital might not sell his crops at once, but keep them back in order to obtain a higher price; and no doubt in one particular year his money gains might not amount to the sum at which he had been accustomed hitherto to be assessed. Again, a farmer in 1849 and 1850, for example, might by over-cropping have exhausted and injured his land, and he might thereby have made, by anticipation, his profit of the year 1851; but in 1851, in consequence of the ill-usage which the land had suffered, he might not make a profit equal to his assessment. On the other hand, by farming more liberally and more sensibly, he might make a large purchase of manure in 1851, or effect other improvements; but the profit on that expenditure would not be realised till 1852, 1853, or even later; and in 1851, if the whole of his expenditure of the year was balanced against the whole of his receipts, he might appear not to have made enough gains even to pay his rent. In the first year of improvements it might often be the case that the profits made did not equal the amount of the assessment. What were the Commissioners to do in these cases? Were they to endeavour to strike an average for a term of years; or, contrary to all reason, to endeavour to ascertain what was unascertainable, probably, except in extreme cases, namely, whether the profits of a farmer in each particular year were equal to the assessment?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that no doubt great difficulties, such as the noble Earl had alluded to, existed in ascertaining what might be fairly set down as the amount of a farmer's profits in any particular year. But these difficulties were incidental in the system of a property and income tax, and could not be altogether obviated. All they could do was to mitigate them as much as possible. It should be borne in mind, however, that such difficulties were not peculiar to the case of the farmer; they were in an equal degree incidental to that of the trader who might lay in a greater stock of goods in one year, and not realise his profit on them until another; and there was the same probability (to put it no higher) of approximate justice being done in the one case as in the other. All that could be done in either case was to strike a balance as fairly as possible between the
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profits and expenditure of one year as compared with those of another.
Bill reported, without amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
House adjourned to Thursday next.