Lords Sitting of 8 May 1851

MINUTES.
A CONFERENCE. Communications between the Lords and Commons—Amendments to Bills.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Exchequer Bills; Indemnity. 3a Apprentices and Servants.

ADMINISTRATION OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE IMPROVEMENT BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLlaid on the Table the Report of the Select Committee on

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his Administration of Criminal Justice Improvement Bill, and his Prevention of Offences Bill, in which several important Amendments had been made, and moved that they be reprinted as amended. The noble and learned Lord said these Bills had been drawn by two very eminent members of the Bar, Mr. Greaves, Q.C. of the Oxford Circuit, and Mr. Pitt Taylor, the latter of whom was a grandson of the celebrated Lord Chatham, and inherited a great portion of his talents, and had also an ardent desire to improve the laws and institutions of his country. He (Lord Campbell) had received a letter from the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench in Ireland—one of the greatest Judges that had ever lived in either Ireland or England—who stated that he and his learned brethren in Ireland highly approved of these Bills, and anxiously wished to see them extended to that part of the United Kingdom. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving that the Bills be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Motion agreed to.

COMMUNICATION BETWEEN THE LORDS AND COMMONS—CONFERENCES.
LORD REDESDALE LORD REDESDALE moved—
"That in cases in which the Commons disagree to any Amendments made by the Lords, or insist upon any Amendments to which the Lords have disagreed, the Lords are willing to receive the Reasons of the Commons for their disagreeing, or insisting (as the case may be) by Message, without a Conference, unless at any time the Commons should desire to communicate the same at a Conference."
Agreed to; and the said Resolution ordered to be communicated to the Commons at a Conference, and their concurrence thereto to be desired. Message sent to the Commons for a present Conference.

APPRENTICES AND SERVANTS BILL.
The EARL of CARLISLE The EARL of CARLISLE moved the Third Reading of this Bill, and briefly pointed out the alterations which had been made in the original form of the measure. In its altered shape, the number of inspections made as to the comfort and condition of young persons hired from the workhouses, would be made twice a year instead of four times; and it was now proposed that the certificates authorising prosecutions for negligence should be signed by two justices.
LORD BEAUMONTthought the 4th clause an inquisitorial interference between master and servant, and considered it
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highly objectionable to base their legislation upon a single case of monstrous and extreme cruelty. The means already existed for making anybody's grievances known to the public; and the system of inspection proposed by this Bill would almost entirely prevent persons from hiring any more servants from the workhouses of the country.
The DUKE of RICHMONDconcurred in the objections of the noble Lord who had just spoken. If extreme cases of cruelty, like that of the Sloanes, were likely to be frequent, he thought they might legislate on the subject, but he disliked special legislation based upon an isolated case.
The EARL of CARLISLEreplied. If the Bill would prevent the hiring of young persons in the workhouses at all, it would only be that class of persons who were likely to ill-treat them who would object to the inspector's visits. This Bill was not proposed to meet the case of the Sloanes alone, but there were other cases evincing an habitual cruelty towards unprotected young persons; such as the case of the Birds, in Devonshire, where the parties not only had illtreated the unfortunate girl Jane Parsons, but their cruelty was such that the poor creature died while in their hands. It was said these were extreme cases. For the sake of the victims, he hoped they were; but there were many cases of negligent and cruel treatment, the details of which never reached the public eye. The neighbours of the Birds allowed Jane Parsons to continue in her emaciated and declining condition, and people were apt to say it was no business of theirs; and unless they had a periodical and systematic inspection of unprotected and friendless young persons, they could never hope to prevent the recurrence of practices at which the heart of the country had so naturally revolted. In some instances the system of inspection had been voluntarily adopted by the boards of guardians, and the Poor Law Board had received representations from all parts of the country, strongly urging the adoption of a compulsory system of that kind; whilst there had been no objections to any of the details of the Bill raised by any board of guardians, or in any part of the country. He therefore trusted that their Lordships would agree to the measure, which had passed through the other House without opposition.
Bill read 3a.
Amendments made.
LORD PORTMANobjected to the 4th clause as dangerous and inexpedient, and could not remain silent whilst it was proposed to be passed into law. At present there were 14,000 children with no parents, or at most with one parent, in the union workhouses, and there they must continue, without ever learning how to earn a livelihood, if this system of inspection was insisted upon. It would be a virtual prohibition of pauper apprenticeship in the small towns of the country. He therefore moved that the 4th clause be rejected.
The EARL of CARLISLEdefended the clause.
The BISHOP of CHICHESTERsupported the clause, pointing to an instance where a systematic periodical inspection had been practically carried out, and yet there was no difficulty in getting rid of the pauper children.
Amendment negatived; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

EDUCATIONAL GRANT (IRELAND).
LORD DUNSANYpresented a petition from the members of the Established Church of a parish in the county of Meath, praying that the schools under the direction of the Established Church might not be excluded from the grants allowed by Parliament for national education in Ireland. The noble Lord supported the prayer of the petition, contending that all that the petitioners asked for was the same encouragement for the schools of the Established Church that was already afforded to all other religious denominations. He had only recently returned from Ireland, and he found that the feeling against the recent aggression of the Pope had by no means abated, and the Protestants complained that the grants made to the Roman Catholic schools in Ireland were not made subject to the same conditions as those which were proposed to the schools of the Established Church.
Petition to lie on the table.
House adjourned till To-morrow.