Lords Sitting of 27 June 1851

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Landlord and Tenant; St. Albans Bribery Commission; Attornies and Solicitors Regulation Act Amendment.
2a Copper Miners in England Company.
Reported.—Bridges (Ireland); Fee Farm Rents (Ireland),
3a Salmon Fisheries (Scotland); Stamp Duties (Ireland) Continuance; Law of Evidence Amendment.

COUNTY COURT EXTENSION (No. 2) BILL.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEpresented a Petition from Attorneys and Solicitors of the borough of Leeds, against the Bill now before the House with reference to the extension of County Court jurisdiction to cases of Bankruptcy and Equity, on the ground that the duties of the Judges of the County Courts are already extremely onerous.
LORD BROUGHAMadmitted that the grievance to which this petition had reference, was very great; for although recent legislation tended to cast a great increase of business upon these learned Judges, there was no increase of remu-

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neration. The present amount of salary, he considered, was very scanty, and at the same time he was ashamed to say the surplus revenue resulting from the labours of the Judges of the County Courts was paid into the Consolidated Fund. From that increased revenue remuneration might well be paid for increased labour. He (Lord Brougham) had received numerous complaints from the Judges of the County Courts themselves on this subject, and he thought nothing could be more fair than the prayer of the petition, that if compensation was denied, extra labour should not be imposed.
LORD CAMPBELLpresented a petition from the Solicitors of Southampton, in favour of the extension of County Court jurisdiction, and took the opportunity to express his concurrence with the noble Lord (Lord Brougham), that it was highly desirable these County Court Judges should not be overworked.

PREVENTION OF OFFENCES BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLmoved, that the Amendments made by the House of Commons on the Prevention of Offences Bill should be taken into consideration. He regretted that another Bill, which went down to the Commons along with it, had not been returned along with it to their Lordships. He alluded to the Bill for the Improvement of Criminal Proceedings, which was a Bill of great importance. His noble and learned Friends, the Lord Chancellor, Lord Brougham, and Lord Cranworth, had all paid great attention to that Bill; and the most eminent men at the Bar, and those most versed in criminal proceedings, had also bestowed upon it much valuable time and labour. Notwithstanding this, the Bill had been referred in the House of Commons to the consideration of a Select Committee. He knew that that Committee had power to defeat the Bill; but he hoped that it would not do so; still it was a great discouragement to the friends of law reform, to find that a Bill which had been so carefully prepared, should be referred to a Select Committee. At present, however, he had only to move that the Commons' Amendments to the Prevention of Offences Bill be considered.
LORD BROUGHAMwarmly commended his noble and learned Friend (Lord Campbell), and assured their Lordships that the noble Lord had not in the least degree overstated, but rather understated, the great pains which had been taken with re-
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spect to the Improvement of Criminal Proceedings Bill. He (Lord Brougham) was quite mortified that it should have been sent before a Select Committee elsewhere, because at that critical period of the Session, the delay which must necessarily arise would jeopardise the passing of the Bill. He begged to ask the noble Lord if he could give any information as to when it was likely the report of the Commissioners on Common Law Proceedings, would be made.
LORD CAMPBELLwas deeply grieved that he could afford no satisfactory information. Some time since, he had asked when the Report would be made, and he was told in a fortnight; but they had now arrived at the 27th of June, and no report had been presented. He thought it was very much to be deplored, as it had prevented the Judges from carrying into effect some very salutary reforms which they had contemplated.
Commons' Amendments agreed to.

JOTEE PERSHAUD.
LORD BROUGHTONwished to make a request to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough) respecting the notice of Motion which he had given on the case of Jotee Pershaud. It appeared from his notice that the noble Earl intended to reopen that case that evening. He had placed on the paper a notice that he intended to move for certain papers to illustrate the merits of that case. He (Lord Broughton) had no objection to produce them; they would be laid immediately on the table. The request which he had now to make to the noble Earl was, that as a mail would immediately arrive in this country with despatches relating to this case, he would not deem him unreasonable when he asked him to postpone his Motion till the arrival of that mail.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, when the noble Lord informed him that morning of his intention to make this request in the House, he (the Earl of Ellenborough) thought it was not probable that anything from India could affect the statement he had to make. At the same time he promised to give the request his best attention; and it had occurred to him that the Governor General might possibly have directed an inquiry into the charges which had been made by the press of India with respect to the corruption of witnesses and the obtaining of evidence against Jotee Pershaud. If that should

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turn out to he the case, it would not be proper that he should state in that House what he had to state, because the gentlemen whom it affected had not there the power of making any answer; and his only object was to obtain a promise from the noble Lord that full inquiry should be made on that subject. Therefore he should waive all notice of the matter he intended to bring before the House with regard to those charges. He understood the noble Lord did nut object to the production of the papers of which he had given notice; but he would take the opportunity to place himself right with the House in respect to a statement which he had ascertained to be in a slight degree incorrect. He stated the other day that when the recognisances of Mr. Lang, the surety of Jotee Pershaud, were estreated, his press—he being the editor of a newspaper—was placed under "embargo." He did not like the expression himself because it was not sufficiently explicit and distinct, but he was compelled to use it, because it was used in a letter which was his authority for the statement. He understood it to mean that the press was not carried away, but was placed under the charge of the police, and Mr. Lang could make no use of it. He understood now that the circumstances were really these: that an order was issued for seizing the press, but the person to whom it was entrusted was afraid of executing it; because he found that either a real or fictitious sale having been effected, the press did not belong to Mr. Lang. Having set himself right on that point, he begged to refer to another point, in which he should have to correct a statement made the other evening by the noble Lord the President of the Board of Control. He had understood the noble Lord to say the Affghanistan accounts were settled, and that the Sutlej accounts approached settlement. He however understood from an officer of the Military Board, who had just arrived in London, that at the date at which he left India, neither of those accounts were settled. The return which he moved for would show whether that statement, or the statement of the noble Lord, was correct. Upon another point the noble Lord made a statement not entirely correct. The noble Lord stated that two members of the Military Board, who were the majority, and who were of opinion that the case ought not to be proceeded with, thought the opinion of Major M'Tier was of such weight that that opinion should be, together
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with their own report, referred to the President in Council. Now, Military Boards had no option; because where there was a difference of opinion, they must report that difference, with the names of the several officers, and wherein they differed. Unless he was very much mistaken, that was now the practice in India, in consequence of a rule he had himself made a few months after his arrival. A question was also put to the noble Lord in the course of the discussion the other night, which was not answered, as to what was the amount found due to Jotee Pershaud on the award when the accounts had been investigated. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) understood the amount found to be unquestionably due, upon the accounts which had been as yet before the Military Board, was between thirty and thirty-five lacs of rupees, or between 300,000 l. and 350,000 l., not one rupee of which had been paid. In addition to that, Jotee Pershaud had entered into security, and that security, represented by absolute stock, which Jotee Pershaud had transferred to the possession of the Government, amounted to five lacs of rupees, or 50,000 l., in consideration of the contracts into which he had entered; so that, taking the last advices, the Government was in possession of property belonging to Jotee Pershaud, amounting to very nearly 400,000 l., and that was the result only of such accounts as had as yet come before the Military Board—those accounts only which had been considered and approved by the military officers—therefore much more than that sum was actually in the possession of Government. The Gwalior accounts were, he believed, settled. The Affghanistan and Sutlej accounts were not settled; and he understood, such was the disgust of this Hindoo contractor at the delay in the settlement of these accounts, that when it was proposed he should engage as contractor in the Punjaub campaign, he absolutely refused to do so. It was only by holding out promises of considerable reward, and the accession of a title of honour, that he was induced to undertake that contract; and in justice to that person he was bound to state, that he (Jotee Pershaud) entered the enemy's camp, bought the grain in their own bazaars, bribed the persons in charge of it, and it was brought into the British camp for the support of our troops. The noble Lord then moved for the following papers:—

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"A return of the date of the final Settlement of the accounts of Jotee Pershaud, an army contractor in India for the campaign of Affghanistan, of Gwalior, and of the Sutlej, respectively: Also, an Account of the Total Sum found by the Military Board to be due to Jotee Pershaud, and unpaid on the 2nd of May, 1851, on such Accounts as had been then laid before that Board for the said several Campaigns, and for the Campaign in the Punjaub, respectively: And also, an Account of the Sum deposited by Jotee Pershaud, as Security on his undertaking the several Contracts for the said several Campaigns respectively, and of the Total Sum under these Heads which remained in the Hands of the Government of India at the above Date."
LORD BROUGHTONmade a statement in answer, which was quite inaudible.
On Question, agreed to.

THE APPELLATE JURISDICTION.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, he should, on a future occasion, propose that the Law, in the same way as the Church, should, to a certain extent, be represented in that House, by the holders of certain offices—that they should be admitted to that House as Peers of Parliament during the continuance of holding such offices. The form of his notice would be—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying, that for the Advantage of this House and the Suitors thereto, and for the honour of the legal Profession, Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to sanction the Erection of the Offices of Lord Chancellor, Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and Chief Baron of the Exchequer, in England into Baronies, which shall entitle the Holders of the said Offices to Writs of Summons to Parliament by Tenure of the said Offices."
The effect of that would be, that they would have the three chief Judges of the Common Law Courts to express their opinion with a full voice in that House. He believed it would be most beneficial, and the three first Equity Judges might afterwards be included. The matter was, however, so novel in itself, that he only threw it out as a suggestion. He did not fix any day, nor, if he had fixed any day, should he have proposed it for immediate decision; but it was a matter which he considered well worthy the attention of their Lordships.
LORD CAMPBELLdid not intend to offer any opinion on this suggestion; it might deserve the consideration of their Lordships. His noble Friend proposed that these high officers should have a temporary peerage, to be held only during their tenure of office. Now this could not
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be done by an Address to the Crown. The Crown might create, by its prerogative, a peerage for life, but not a peerage during a man's continuance in office; that would require an enactment of the three branches of the Legislature.
LORD REDESDALEwas well aware of the objection urged by his noble and learned Friend, but reminded him that a bishop might resign his see, and if he did so he would not continue a Peer for life; for his peerage depended on the temporal barony which he held while a bishop, and which he would cease to hold when he ceased to be a bishop. So, too, with the Scotch Representative Peerage. A man might be a Representative Poor in one Parliament, and not in another.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, it would be calling on the Queen to exercise a power which the Crown did not possess. There must first be a legislative enactment.
LORD REDESDALEreplied that his Motion was directed to obtain Her Majesty's sanction, with the view to subsequent enactments.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, the sanction could be given in the words, "la Reine la vent."

LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.
Bill read 3a, according to Order.
LORD BROUGHAMproposed certain verbal alterations in this Bill, which had been adopted on the suggestion of his noble Friend the Lord Chancellor.
Amendment agreed to.
On the Question, That the Bill do pass,
LORD BROUGHAMsaid: I congratulate your Lordships and the country on this most important measure having received your sanction, and being, as may be confidently expected, about to pass into a law. You have conferred an inestimable benefit upon the community; you have incalculably improved the administration of justice, effaced from our jurisprudence its greatest blot, planted our judicial system upon solid grounds, and provided the best security to the Bench, and the safest protection to the Bar. Let mo further say how grateful I feel on behalf of my revered and most dear Friend, not now present to partake of our satisfaction. You have this day gladdened his heart—you have renewed his illustrious youth.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned to Monday next.