Lords Sitting of 5 June 1851

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a School Sites Acts Amendment; Masters Jurisdiction in Equity.
3 a Compound Householders.
ROYAL ASSENT.—Property Tax; Sale of Arsenic Regulation; Royal Naval School.

LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee being read,
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, it was his intention to introduce words into the Bill for providing that it should not be compulsory for a wife to appear as a witness against her husband in any court, whether of Law or Equity. He had intended, in the first instance, to move that their Lordships should go into Committee on the Bill pro formâ hut considering the infinite benefits which he expected to attend the passing of this measure, and considering also the risk their Lordships ran of diminishing the amount of those benefits, if they left any defect in the Bill, he would propose that their Lordships should refer it to a Select Committee. He should object, however, to the Judges being called as witnesses, if their Lordships acquiesced in the Motion to send it before a Committee. He should be happy to hear the evidence of the members of the legal profession on its merits; but he should object to have Judges examined, who ought not to have their administrative duties mixed up with the legislative functions of Parliament.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he approved of the course taken by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) with respect to this Bill; but he did not agree with him on the point that the opinions and the experience of the Judges on this question were to be disregarded. Considering that when his noble and learned Friend introduced this measure, he relied

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very much on certain opinions given by the County Court Judges, he (the Lord Chancellor) thought the experience of the Judges in Westminster Hall ought not to be lightly esteemed, but that, on the contrary, they were very likely to be able to render his noble and learned Friend important assistance in the consideration of matters which bore on this question, He (the Lord Chancellor) felt perfectly satisfied that no more important Bill than this ever came under their Lordships' notice; and it deserved, on that account, more than any other, the consideration which his noble and learned Friend proposed to give it.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he likewise rejoiced in the course which his noble and learned Friend proposed to take with regard to this Bill. Either for good or evil, it was the most important Bill which had been laid on their Lordships' table for a long time. He, after great consideration, was a warm defender of the Bill; and his opinion had been greatly confirmed by the circumstance that his noble and illustrious predecessor, Lord Denman, though at first opposed to its principle, now, on more mature deliberation, cordially approved of it. With respect to the Judges not being-consulted on the provisions of this Bill, he (Lord Campbell) was of opinion that they ought undoubtedly to be consulted on the subject, and that the greatest respect ought to be paid to their opinions; hut he agreed with his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), that their opinions ought not to govern the opinions of the Legislature. He would remind his noble and learned Friend and their Lordships that many of the most important improvements which had taken place in the law during the last thirty years, had been actually introduced by the Judges. He had no doubt that in a Select Committee this Bill would receive all the consideration it so eminently deserved.
LORD BROUGHAMwas afraid his noble and learned Friend (Lord Campbell) had misunderstood what he had said with respect to the Judges not being consulted on the subject of this Bill. He (Lord Brougham) did not hesitate to say, that he had no objection to the Judges being consulted: so far from it, he thought, that their opinions ought to be treated with great respect; but his reference was to calling them as witnesses before the Committee—a course which was evidently open to great objection. If the Bill had been
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committed pro formâ, he should have proposed to add words providing for its not being compulsory to examine a wife as a witness against her husband; but he thought it would be better to refer the whole Bill at once to a Select Committee; therefore, instead of moving the Order of the Day for the House going into Committee pro formâ, he should move that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.
Order of the Day for the House to be put in Committee read, and discharged; and Bill referred to a Select Committee.

MASTERS JURISDICTION IN EQUITY BILL.
LORD BROUGHAM, in presenting a Bill to give primary jurisdiction to the Masters in Ordinary of the High Court of Chancery in certain cases, said, he had frequently had occasion to mention to their Lordships a saying of Lord Bacon, and he would repeat it for the comfort and encouragement of those of their Lordships who were interested in the amendment of the law: "No good proposal," said that great man, "for the amendment of the law was ever fruitless and lost, for although at first it might not be adopted, it was sure in the end to produce good fruit." His noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) made a statement the other night in their Lordships' House on the important improvements which had taken place in the course of proceedings in the Irish Court of Chancery, as the result of the Act which had recently come into operation for regulating the administration of justice there. His noble and learned Friend stated that the measure appeared to have given universal satisfaction to plaintiffs as well as defendants, which was proved by the fact that there was hardly any interruption given to the practice of proceeding by petition instead of by Bill, cither on the part of the suitors or that of the Judge. He (Lord Brougham) was not aware of the intention of his noble and learned Friend to bring the subject before their Lordships on Monday night, and therefore he was not prepared, in the statement he then had made, to sift his account of the working in Ireland of the Bill of the present Master of the Rolls, and to compare the provisions of that Bill with the provisions of the Bill which last Session he (Lord Brougham) had laid before their Lordships—which had found acceptance from their Lordships—which had passed through all its stages without any opposition whatever, except

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the doubts expressed by his most learned and able and much lamented Friend the late Master of the Rolls (Lord Langdale), which doubts upon further consideration had been so far removed, that he bad waived any objection to the measure: so that having passed through that House without any opposition, it went to the other House of Parliament, where it was dropped from; accidental circumstances, such, he presumed, as existed at a late period of the Session. That Bill was almost identical with the Act of the Master of the Rolls; and every one of the facts which had been stated by his noble and learned Friend two nights before, told most decidedly in favour of the measure, which therefore he (Lord Brougham) now again submitted to their Lordships. It had been found from experience of the Irish Bill that every one of the objections which his learned Friend now no more had urged against his (Lord Brougham's) Bill, were groundless. He was sure it would have the assent of their Lordships; and he had a right to expect the concurrence of the other House of Parliament in the Bill, which he now begged to lay on their Lord ships' table. He had only to add that the Bill was most carefully prepared, and that he (Lord Brougham) took no credit for the manner in which it was framed. It was prepared by a learned relative of his (Master Brougham), who had been for twenty years a Master in Chancery, who had examined the whole subject with the greatest care, and in concert with the great body of London solicitors, and he with them bad digested the details and framed the Bill which he (Lord Brougham) had the honour of presenting to their Lordships. The main object of the Bill had reference to suits of administration, and to supply the defects of the existing system, but it extended to other suits, that is, to such as were in reality uncontested, and yet entailed by the present practice great delay and heavy expense on the parties. An administration suit, be it for 50 l., or 100 l., or 10,000 l., or however great or trifling, could not be proceeded with a single step in the Court of Chancery under an expense of between 100 l. and 200 l., and yet such suits must be brought if parties would be secure, because, in consequence of a decision at the Rolls, and another decision in the Court of Chancery, no executor or administrator could by possibility be secure unless he administered under the sanction of that Court.
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In consequence of the grievous expense, it was found by examination in the will and probate offices, that four out of five of those bills never were brought into court, because the parties could not bear the expense; so that in the vast majority of cases executors and administrators took the great risk upon themselves; whereas the object of the present Bill was to enable parties to act without all that grievous and oppressive delay. Instead of parties being subjected to such grievous expense by this Bill, the necessary measures might be taken at an expense of 5s. or 6s., without any delay. He would move the first reading of the Bill.
LORD CRANWORTHfelt there could be no doubt about the extreme importance of this Bill, and thought that any suggestion which came from so distinguished a Member of the House as his noble Friend opposite was deserving of the most serious attention; but there was one circumstance to which he (Lord Cranworth) begged to call their Lordships' attention in reference to this proposal; it was this—he did not think that a case in England stood precisely in the same position as in Ireland. The late Lord Chancellor had introduced a new and summary mode of proceeding in the Court of Chancery, by the New Orders which had been issued by him, a mode of proceeding which was quite as expeditious as that adopted in Ireland—of proceeding by petition; and it appeared strange to him, that if the mode of proceeding by petition was so preferable, the noble and learned Lord opposite had not adopted it in his present Bill.
LORD BROUGHAM: The reason why I do not take the proceeding by petition is this—the cost is 15 l.; and this relates to uncontested suits, for the purpose of administration.
LORD CRANWORTH: It is better, perhaps, to say nothing until the Bill is before us. The other measure has been in operation less than twelve months, and we should allow it to have a fair trial before we introduce another mode of proceeding to remedy the evil complained of.
LORD BROUGHAMbegged to explain that there was no interference whatever by his Bill with the New Orders of Lord Cottenham.
THE LORD CHANCELLORbegged to say, in reference to the observations made by a noble and learned Lord (Lord Lyndhurst) on a previous night, with respect to the state of Irish business, that the ma-

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jority of the petitions filed were proceedings under the Encumbered Estates Sale Act.
Bill read 1a.
House adjourned till To-morrow.