Lords Sitting of 2 June 1851

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Charitable Trusts; Bridges (Ireland).
2a Compound Householders; Arrest of Absconding Debtors; Highways (South Wales).
Reported.—Duchy of Lancaster (High Beak Mining Customs and Mineral Courts).

CHANCERY REFORM.
LORD LYNDHURSTsaid, it appeared by the Votes and Proceedings of the other House of Parliament, that the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government had given notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill to improve the Administration of Justice in the Court of Chancery. But it would be in their Lordships' recollection that a similar Motion was made several weeks ago; and he (Lord Lyndhurst) presumed, therefore, that it was the intention of the Government to abandon its former Bill as unsatisfactory, for the purpose of finding a substitute in some other measure. He could only express a hope that his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack had had more hand in preparing the intended Bill, than he had in the preparation of the former one. His (Lord Lyndhurst's) principal object in rising, however, was to direct the attention of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack to what be considered a matter of great interest and importance as connected with this subject. In the last Session of Parliament a Bill was introduced by the present Master of the Rolls, with a view to a reform of the proceedings in the Court of Chancery in Ireland. That Bill passed the

329
other House of Parliament and their Lordships' House with little or no discussion. He (Lord Lyndhurst) was now very desirous of knowing what had been the effect of that Act. The object of it was certainly a very desirable one. It was to facilitate the progress of the proceedings of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, and—what was even more desirable—greatly to diminish the expense of those proceedings; and accordingly, some clays ago, he had moved for certain returns 'connected with the proceedings of the Irish Court of Chancery, for the purpose of coming to some satisfactory conclusion on the subject. He had found it impossible as yet to obtain those returns; but at the same time he had undertaken to inquire in the highest quarters what had been the result of that Act. He was able to say that the result had been most satisfactory; and he would very shortly state two or three facts which had been communicated to him, which would satisfy their Lordships that what he had stated was correct. The object of the Act of last Session was to substitute summary proceeding by petition, instead of the ordinary cumbrous proceeding by bill and answer, in a suit of Chancery. He had ascertained what number of petitions had been presented to the Court since that Act of Parliament passed. That Act came into operation in August last, and up to the 1st of May of the present year he was informed, upon the highest authority, that 694 causes had been instituted in the Irish Court of Chancery by petition alone. That was a pretty satisfactory conclusion. But their Lordships would be desirous of knowing what were the number of suits instituted by bill and answer in the same time. Perhaps their Lordships would be gratified to know that those suits by bill amounted to the small number of twenty-nine, out of about 700 causes. That was a pretty safe conclusion that the operation of the Act had been satisfactory to plaintiffs, seeing that they might have proceeded by bill and answer, or by petition, just as they chose. Their Lordships might be desirous of knowing how it had operated with respect to the defendants also. In that Act there was a clause by which the defendant was entitled to apply to the Lord Chancellor for an order to direct the plaintiff to carry on the proceedings in the ordinary mode by bill. He had inquired how many such applications had been made to the Lord Chancellor; and the answer he had got
330
was that not one single application had been made on the part of the defendant to compel the plaintiff to proceed by bill instead of by petition. That was conclusive, as far as the defendants were concerned, that they were satisfied with that mode of proceeding. With respect to another part of the subject, their Lordships would probably be desirous of knowing what was the opinion of the supreme Judge of the Court. The supreme Judge of the Court had the power, without any application on the part either of the plaintiff or defendant, to direct, if from the nature of the cause he so thought fit, that the proceedings should be by bill instead of petition. How many times did their Lordships suppose the supreme Judge had interposed for that purpose? Not in one single instance. Their Lordships would therefore see that the plaintiffs, the defendants, and the high Judge of that Court were equally well satisfied with the new mode of procedure. Now, these were grave considerations, deserving much examination and reflection on the part of his noble and learned Friend with reference to the Bill now in preparation. He (Lord Lyndhurst) had been desirous of obtaining the number of decrees which had been pronounced on those petitions in the suits so instituted. He had mentioned that the number of petitions amounted to 694. Nearly 400 decrees, or orders in the nature of decrees, had been pronounced on those petitions; and had it not been for the circumstance that there was a great arrear of heavy causes before the Court of Chancery when this Bill came into operation, he was assured there would not have been a single petition in which a decree would not have been pronounced. Now, these were facts of the greatest importance. His noble and learned Friend well knew that a summary proceeding by petition lessened in an enormous degree the cost of proceeding, and expedited the suit in an extraordinary manner. He submitted, those matters were well worthy their Lordships' consideration, and in particular the consideration of his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor). He (Lord Lyndhurst) made no comment on them, but he asked his noble and learned Friend to take them into his consideration at his leisure in connexion with the Bill about to be brought into the other House of Parliament, with a view to a reformation of the course of proceeding in the Court of Chancery. He would leave the matter in the hands of his noble and

331
learned Friend, satisfied he would give every attention to so important a subject.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, his noble and learned Friend had presented their Lordships with important information bearing on the recent alterations in the Court of Chancery in Ireland; but he (the Lord Chancellor) was not precisely aware what his noble and learned Friend's object was in bringing this subject under their Lordships' notice. As his noble and learned Friend had stated, the noble Lord at the head of the Government had given notice elsewhere of his intention to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to reform the proceedings in the Court of Chancery. He would not now enter into the provisions of that Bill; but he could state that every labour had been bestowed upon it, and he hoped their Lordships would consider it satisfactory when it came before them. He confessed that those statements, coming on him on a sudden, and without notice, with regard to the whole course of proceedings in the Irish Court of Chancery, were somewhat embarrassing; but he did not apprehend that their Lordships would expect that he should go into the details brought under their notice by his noble and learned Friend. He could very readily understand that the form of proceeding by bill might be conveniently ex-changed for that of petition. If the statement handed to his noble and learned Friend was correct, that 400 orders had been made by one Judge in the Court of Chancery in Ireland since last August, it would be a happy result in this country if counsel would exhibit the same saving of time in their speeches, be they made either upon bill or petition. Their Lordships would find on inquiring that they had had many hundreds of causes commenced by petition in the Court of Chancery during the last year, arising under the Railways Winding-up Act; and he could assure his noble and learned Friend that what he had just stated should be made matter for instant inquiry, and that too with a wish to adopt some similar measure in this country. He should certainly feel much obliged to his noble and learned Friend if he would give him the opportunity of making inquiry before he again directed their Lordships' attention to this subject, if such should be his noble and learned Friend's intention. He (the Lord Chancellor) did not know what the proceedings had been under the new Act in Ireland, but he thought the statements that had
332
been received should be adopted with some caution; for he could not think an experience lasting only from the month of August last to the present time could be sufficient to warrant the adoption of a definite conclusion. He would, he repeated, make inquiry into its correctness, and then, with the able assistance of his noble and learned Friend, or without it, would adopt such proceedings as would tend to render the transaction of business in the Courts of Chancery more expeditious and less expensive. He hoped that the Bill which would be introduced shortly into the House of Commons would meet the approbation of his noble and learned Friend. In conclusion, he thanked his noble and learned Friend for having called his attention to this matter, and assured him that he should at all times be most happy to receive from him communications in private on a subject which he (Lord Lyndhurst) so well understood as the administration of justice in the Court of Chancery.

THE CRIMINAL LAW.
LORD LYNDHURSTsaid, he felt obliged for the very courteous manner in which his noble and learned Friend had expressed his readiness to direct his attention, to the subject which he (Lord Lyndhurst) had felt it his duty to bring under his notice. He had felt it necessary to make the remarks he had addressed to their Lordships before the Bill was introduced, in preference to waiting for the returns for which he had moved, on account of the short interval which was likely to elapse before the introduction of the new measure. He had now to put a question to his noble and learned Friend on a very important subject—he meant with reference to the Criminal Law. Their Lordships were aware that in 1838 a Commission had been appointed to frame a Digest, or Criminal Code. Those Commissioners had performed their duty with great zeal, industry, and ability. Many thousand pounds had been expended under that Commission. A Digest was prepared by them, and a Bill was brought in, which was read a second time in their Lordships' House, and afterwards referred to a Select Committee. The question he wished now to ask his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) was, whether or not it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to pass over altogether the labours of that Commission, and, if not, to what extent it was meant to adopt or

333
to abandon them? He (Lord Lyndhurst) was anxious to know what the intentions of Her Majesty's Government were on that important subject, because, until their Lordships knew whether the Report of the Commissioners was to be acted on or altogether disregarded, it was impossible to expect any general measure to be introduced, having for its tendency the consolidation into one simple, uniform, and consistent code, the present complicated criminal statutes of this country. That was his object in putting the question; otherwise they might go on, from Session to Session, in a line of patchwork legislation, on this important question. He had mentioned the subject a few days ago privately to his noble and learned Friend, who would, therefore, probably be prepared now to give an answer to this question.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, a few days ago his noble and learned Friend did incidentally mention this subject to him in the way of ordinary conversation, but not in a manner to make any particular impression on his (the Lord Chancellor's) mind, or to induce his noble and learned Friend to expect that be (the Lord Chancellor) would make any inquiries of his Colleagues on the subject. He thought that it was mentioned merely in the way of gossip, and not with a view of bringing it under public consideration. The question had been asked on a former occasion, by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), and it was then stated that it was not the intention of the Government to advance any more money with a view to enable the Commissioners to prosecute their inquiries. He had not heard anything on the subject; he had no reason to think that it was the intention of the Government to renew the Commission, though their Lordships would not understand him as giving an authorised answer to the question.
LORD BROUGHAMcommented on the remark of the Lord Chancellor, that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst) had put this question to him in private conversation. But his noble and learned Friend would perhaps recollect that before Easter he had himself put a nearly similar question to him. [The LORD CHANCELLOR: And you were answered.] No, he was not answered. His noble and learned Friend said that he would inform himself upon the subject, and then give him a decisive answer, but he had not yet done so. He would remind his noble and learned
334
Friend on the woolsack of what had occurred on this subject in the course of last Session. He had himself addressed a letter to the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he was informed, in reply, that he (the Chancellor) did not intend to renew the Commission. He had received that information with surprise and regret, for both the late Lord Chancellor Cottenham, whose name he could never mention here without the deepest sorrow, and his noble and learned Friend Lord Lyndhurst, bad agreed that there was but one way of making the valuable labours of the Commissioners available, and that was by referring the digests which they had prepared to another Commission. He had then said, that a Bill for the consolidation of the Criminal Law could never be carried through the stages either of a Committee of that House, or of a Select Committee in that House, except by having it previously referred again to another Commission, or to the old Commission increased by fresh minds. Such being the case, the Commission was reconstituted, and reported the Bill, as they believed, in a perfect form. He must again express his surprise and disappointment at the answer which he had received from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, declaring that he would not renew the Commission. By his refusal, the country would derive no practical benefit from the labours of the Commissioners.

PAPAL AGGRESSION—PETITIONS.
The EARL of ENNISKILLENhaving presented many petitions from Ireland against Papal Aggression, and praying that Ireland may be included in any measure for the suppression thereof,
LORD MONTEAGLEprotested against the practice of considering these petitions as the expression of the unanimous opinion of the people of Ireland. The forms of the House allowed parties to petition against what was at present called Papal Aggression, but did not allow parties to petition the House against the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, which was intended to repel that aggression, inasmuch as it was not yet, and he hoped it never would be, before their Lordships. Petitions of a nature contrary to that of the petitions presented by the noble Earl could not be received; and he mentioned the fact that the people out of doors might not suppose that there was unanimity on this subject in Ireland. He assured their Lordships that there was a strong feeling of unanimity in that coun-

335
try against the Bill in the other House, and, indeed, against any measure that would interfere with the free exercise of the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland.

ABSCONDING DEBTORS BILL.
The EARL of HARROWBYmoved the Second Reading of the Bill. He did not believe that there was any objection to the measure. The object of it was to give to the Judges of the County Courts, and also the Commissioners of the Court of Bankruptcy, the same power to issue warrants for the arrest of absconding debtors as was now enjoyed by the Judges of the Superior Courts in Westminster Hall, with the same provisions and securities which now existed to prevent any injury from being inflicted on the personal freedom of the subject.
LORD BROUGHAMbelieved that some such measure as this was greatly wanted, hut pointed out some objections to this Bill, which he, nevertheless, thought might be cured in Committee. He thought that some means should be adopted to ascertain whether the party accused of absconding was really in debt or not. Under this Bill a man might be arrested and held to bail for a debt of 10,000 l., when he did not owe a shilling either in law or in equity. It was rather hard to saddle a poor man with the costs of resisting such a Motion; but this, he repeated, might be remedied in Committee.
After a few words from Lord CRANWORTH in support of the Bill, and a brief remark from the LORD CHANCELLOR,
Bill read 2a.

PUBLIC WORKS IN INDIA.
LORD WHARNCLIFFErose, in pursuance of notice, to move for Papers relating to works of irrigation, public works, and internal improvements in India.—(Minutes of Proceedings, 51. 52.) As he believed that the noble Lord on the opposite benches who presided over the administration of affairs in that country concurred in the propriety of producing these papers, and as he did not believe that any Other of their Lordships would object to their production, he might perhaps have abstained from offering any remarks to their Lordships; but, considering the nature and importance of the subject, he hoped that he might occupy the attention of the House for a short time while he explained the grounds on which he made, his Motion, and the position of the country which would be elucidated by acceding
336
to it. It had been said on a former evening by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Broughton), that the East India Company were the trustees of the Crown for the benefit of the people of India; and if that were true, he trusted that he might add that the Legislature and the Crown were also the trustees of Providence for their benefit. Such being the case, and there being no question as to the importance of the Motion, he must remind their Lordships that in the year 1842 the late Sir Robert Peel, then at the head of the Government, in proposing a plan for the arrangement of the finances of that part of our empire, called the attention of the House of Commons to the manner in which the condition of England was influenced by the flourishing or depressed condition of the finances of India. He (Sir Robert Peel) spoke of the condition of India in a financial point of view; but he (Lord Wharncliffe) should proceed to view it as a great social, moral, and commercial question. He was justified in asking for these papers on those grounds, but he had also other grounds for requiring their production. The communications made to Parliament respecting the internal improvements of India were singularly rare. There had been an objection to proceed with any public works in that country without the previous consent of the Government at home; and the consequence had been that amid all the multiplicity of papers transmitted by the officials of the East India Company to the Directors at home, on commercial, judicial, political, and military subjects, there was only to be found one single paper from 1834 to 1851 respecting public works. That in itself was a sufficient reason for requiring further information. In the time when the ancient dynasties of India ruled over that vast empire, large canals and other works for draining and irrigating the country existed in the north-western provinces of India and near the sources of the Jumna and the Ganges. It was a reproach to the present Government of India that such works had been allowed to fall into decay and ruin. The noble Lord referred to the canals which have been constructed in India, and was understood to say that they not only contributed to the wealth of the country through which they passed, but yielded a revenue equal to 24 per cent on their cost; and that, therefore, if it were true that the investment of capital in such undertakings would yield so large a revenue, it was the direct interest

337
of the Government, not loss than their duty to their subjects, to accomplish these improvements. As to roads, there appeared to he very few parts of India in which good practical roads existed, and where they did they were often rendered useless by streams which there were no regular means of crossing, so that the difficulty of removing from one part of the country to another was exceedingly great. The stoppage of internal traffic from the want of good roads and bridges was so great that grain was sometimes sold at a famine price in one part of India, while at another, not more than 300 miles distant, it was selling at the lowest conceivable price: though the necessity for grain in one place was most urgent, and though it might be most abundant in another, the want of the proper means of communication rendered it impossible to supply the deficiency. It was a singular fact that in Mysore the roads were in far better condition generally than in any part of the British territory. He contended that as a matter of principle it was the duty of the East India Company to proceed as far as it possibly could in the execution of public works in that country, so as to develop to the utmost extent its great and growing resources. Of course, the means of doing so must depend very much upon the state of the Indian finances. He found that from the close of the great Burmese war down to 1838 there existed in the Indian Exchequer a considerable surplus; in the years 1835–36–37, it amounted to 3,470,000 l. From that time to this, however, there had been a succession of military events by which the Company had necessarily been driven into great expenditure, and in 1848–49 the surplus had had been converted into a deficiency of 2,800,000 l. This state of matters was, no doubt, inimical to the construction of public works; but, nevertheless, he could not help thinking that much more ought to have been done, and that the cessation of public works had in itself proved injurious to the Indian revenue. For the last 20 years the annual revenue of the East India Company had been 16,000,000 l., making an amount of 320,000,000 l. during that period, while the greatest sum expended by them in any one year on public works was 230,000 l. It was but justice to the Indian Government to say, however, that there were several canals now going on, and that great exertions were making to promote public works. He trusted that
338
the prospect before them was better than for some years past—that they would not have so many military calls upon them as unfortunately had been the case—and that therefore the East India Company would be able to enter upon the execution of public works in that country with more vigour and earnestness than hitherto had characterised the administration of India. The noble Lord concluded with moving for correspondence, &c., relating to the subject.
LORD BROUGHTONsaid, that he quite agreed with the noble Lord who had just resumed his seat, that it was impossible to overrate the importance of this subject, and he thanked him for the terms in which he had prefaced his Motion, which he believed was the wisest course he could have adopted to attain the object in view. The noble Lord had done the East India Company no more than justice in what he said with respect to their anxiety to improve the present condition of their territory. He would not say that, upon the whole, more attention might not have been paid by the Indian Government to the construction of public works; but the noble Lord had very fairly told the House that, during the nine years from 1837 to 1846, they were engaged in expensive wars which prevented them prosecuting these great works with the same earnestness with which they had been previously carried on. But even during those years the annual expenditure upon public works had amounted to 253,000 l. This certainly was no great sum; but it at least showed that even in those days of great exertion and sacrifice, the Governors General of India were not unmindful of their duty in proceeding steadily with the work of internal improvement. The noble Lord had referred to several works now in progress; and in order to show their Lordships the extent to which these works were now in course of construction, he might state that the Indian Government were now proceeding in the Bengal Presidency with the Delhi or West Jumna Canal, twenty-four miles in length, and upon which 352,000 l. had been already expended; and the East Jumna Canal, 160 miles in length, and upon which 190,000 l. had been expended; and there was another small canal on which 12,000 l. had been expended, making a total of 554,000 l. Added to that was the cost of the Great Ganges Canal (a most important work), which would be 452 miles in length, besides a branch, and the estimate for which

339
was 1,500,000 l. In the Madras Presidency there was the Tanjore Canal, which would cost 30,000 l., with other smaller works, the total cost of which was estimated at 250,000 l., with 100,000 l. for irrigating tanks, &c. In Scinde there would be some, though not a very large, outlay; and in the Punjab the present Governor General had devoted 50,000 l. a year to the construction of canals for irrigation. Nor were these the only works of great national importance that had been undertaken of late years in India; for the trigonometrical survey of the country was in progress, on which 341,000 l. had been already expended, and with respect to which a very interesting report had been presented to the other House of Parliament in April last. It was quite true that the finances of India had gone through a process of exhaustion which was much to be deplored, but which was the natural consequence of the wars which had been carried on there for some years, and which he maintained to have been absolutely necessary. It appeared, however, from accounts which were laid upon the table of the other House of Parliament, in February last, that the state of the finances was improving; for, according to the "Sketch Estimate" of 1849–50, not only would the revenue not be deficient, but there would be an actual surplus of 77,000 l. He would not, of course, undertake to say that at the end of the year the accounts would actually turn out so well as this "Sketch Estimate" represented; but it at any rate showed that the prospect was much better than we had any reason to expect during the past year. The noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) had asked about the 5 per cent loan: that loan had been closed. With respect to the observations made by the noble Earl on the guarantee for the Bengal Railway, it was not a guarantee of a dividend, but of interest upon a million of capital expended. The estimated cost of the Bombay line was half a million; but in consequence of its having been determined not to proceed with the whole extent as at first proposed, it would not cost anything like that sum. He thought that the noble Lord (Lord Wharncliffe) had undervalued the state of the Indian roads; he believed that the great road of Bengal, 800 miles in length, was in good condition, and that there was no ground for making any complaint of it. He joined in the wish expressed by the noble Lord that the continuance of peace in India
340
would enable these great public works to be carried on with vigour. We had had wars enough in India. He believed, however, that they were inevitable, while they had certainly for the most part terminated to the honour and glory of the Indian empire. We had acquired two great provinces, Scinde and the Punjab; the former having come in most opportunely to assist the latter. He trusted that there was little doubt that these acquisitions would be of the greatest importance to our Indian empire; and from the inclination which the Government had already shown to promote great public works, he thought there was no reason to despair of the future. He not only had no objection, but, on the contrary, would be most happy to furnish the Returns moved for by the noble Lord.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHthanked his noble Friend who sat near him (Lord Wharncliffe) for having called the attention of Parliament to this important subject, and expressed a hope that when next year their Lordships would be called upon to consider in what position the government of the East India Company was to be placed, they would have the benefit of his Lordship's experience and knowledge of all subjects connected with our Eastern possessions. His noble Friend had referred to roads and canals as important instruments for improving the condition of the people of India; nor could there be any doubt that while in this country drainage was the great means of agricultural improvement, in India irrigation was absolutely essential, not merely to the fertility of the soil, but to the production of any crop whatever. He was, therefore, disappointed to find that there had not been a greater expenditure on these works, considering the great increase of revenue derived from the sums which he mentioned as having been expended on these works. In consequence of the construction of some irrigation tanks in districts in Rajpootana, under the direction of Lieutenant Colonel Dixon, the revenue had during the last three or four years increased 200 per cent. With respect to canals, he had been informed by the native chiefs who possessed the largest part of the land along its banks, that the effect of the Delhi Canal (or the Hastings Canal as it should be called) had been prejudicial to the health of the population through which it passed, although it had improved the revenue. He entertained great doubts with respect to the Great Ganges Canal, as it was at present pro-

341
posed to be constructed. He had always insisted that it should be a canal for irrigation as well as navigation, for although one for the former purpose might improve the revenue, what was that to the importance of the navigation of the Ganges above Allahabad, whence it was now proposed to take a great part of the water for the canal? Whatever surplus water there was might have been used for the purpose of irrigation; but he thought that the means of conveying troops, Government stores, &c., up into the country should not have been allowed to be perilled, as he thought it was by the Government plan, for it was intended to pass by the foot of the hills in such a manner as to expose its flank to all the torrents which would pour down upon it from the higher regions. There could not, indeed, be found in India, a line of country in which a railway could be laid down more easily; and if that could be substituted for the Ganges, there would no longer be any necessity to insist that the canal should be navigable. Wherever, however, the nature of the country would allow it, he thought that tanks were a more convenient mode of irrigation than great canals, while he did not hear of a single case of malaria occurring in the neighbourhood of a tank. On the other hand, the filtering of the water from the Delhi Canal rendered the neighbouring district so unhealthy that he had been obliged, when Governor General of India, to remove the European troops from it, and construct barracks elsewhere. There had been a great improvement in the Indian roads of late years. The state of the Bengal road, to which reference had been made, varied considerably, for, while some portions of it were as good as any road in England, others were in by no means a satisfactory condition. He had heard with the greatest satisfaction from the noble Lord that there was some hope held out—even although it was only held out by a "Sketch Estimate"—of a surplus in India. Still he could not himself entertain any decided expectations on the subject. What he had done when in India with the view of reducing the expenditure and raising the receipts, did not make him very sanguine of their obtaining a surplus. Yet the state of things was very different there when he left than when he arrived. He had increased the revenue five millions, found six or seven millions in the Treasury, and he left about ten millions; and he had kept that amount in hand for the
342
purpose of reducing the interest of five per cent, an object which ought always to be kept in view. The great mass of the debt of that country was the four per cents, and the effect of creating the five per cents was almost immediately to reduce the four per cents, sixteen and a half, or, in other words, to strike off at once four millions of capital. So long as they held out a five per cent guarantee for railways, so long they could not expect the four per cents to rise to par; and he, therefore, hoped the Government would bear that consideration in mind with respect to their guarantees for railways in India. He would much rather that the Government of India had at first, if it thought railways advisable, dispensed altogether with foreign speculators, and taken the whole matter into its own hands. No doubt the establishment of railways by the Government must be of great benefit, not merely as regarded the transit of troops and stores, but in bringing the raw produce of India to the seaboard. A vast proportion of the produce of India was raw produce, and the greatest difficulties to its profitable disposal was the heavy charge of transporting it to the seacoast. If a railway was constructed from Bombay into the cotton districts, and arrangements were made by the Government to encourage the growth of cotton in India, they might effect what he took to be the greatest commercial object connected with India, namely, the independence of this country in its supply of cotton from the United States. Those portions of India where the best cotton was to be obtained might not be our own territory; but it mattered very little whether the territory was our own, or that of our Indian allies: what England wanted was, to be independent of the United States; for cotton was in a manner as important to us as food, and we could as little stand the interruption of the import of corn as we could the import of wheat. He had examined all those persons who had been sent out to investigate the cotton question in India, and he had sent home the result of the best consideration that he could give the subject; and let the noble Lord read the answer which he received, and he could not wonder that he (the Earl of Ellenborough) felt disgust that the earnest endeavours of a public servant to serve his country in one of its most important commercial as well as political interests should be met not only by captious objections, but even by sneers

343
against him, his arguments, and his observations. Indeed, he was so disgusted that, he confessed, it was with faint-heartedness that he applied himself again to the subject. But all these questions, which were more fitted for a Committee, would come under consideration again next year, and he had perhaps now better terminate his remarks, again expressing to his noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe) his heartfelt thanks for calling the attention of their Lordships to that subject, and his earnest hope that he would continue to give the House the advantage of his industry and ability in considering all matters connected with India.
The EARL of HARROWBYsaid, that in India it was left entirely to the East India Company to do everything as regards the formation of roads, canals, and other public works, and private enterprise did nothing. The consequence had been that the whole amount expended for these purposes during twenty years among a population of 100 millions, was a pitiful sum of something like three millions. The radical defect was, that it was not considered the first duty of a Government, especially in India, to provide the extension of roads and irrigation, without which it was impossible that there could be a development of industry or progress in civilisation. These objects the Mahometan conquerors of Hindostan had made their first duty; and their exertions in this respect, as compared with ours, placed this country in a most humiliating contrast. He had read a few years ago, with shame, a picture of the state of the Madras territory, with its hundreds and hundreds of tanks, all raised by the industry and enterprise of these Mahometan conquerors, but which were lying in ruin and decay. Whatever wars the East India Company might have been engaged in, this primary and most paternal duty of providing the first elements of civilisation ought to have occupied the foremost and most prominent place in their administration of the vast empire of India committed to their rule.
On Question, agreed to; and ordered accordingly.

CLEOPATRA'S NEEDLE.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHwished to inquire of the noble Earl the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, what steps had been taken for obtaining possession of, or for removing, the obelisk called "Cleopatra's Needle," which was present-
344
ed to George IV. by the late Pasha of Egypt in 1820? The noble Marquess adverted to the proposal made for its removal to this country at the end of the campaign of 1801. The opinion of the late Sir Robert Peel expressed to himself was, that it was a monument which ought to be brought to London and erected as a memorial of Sir Ralph Abercromby and others who had fought and died in Egypt. The late Sir George Murray also stated, that he joined with all his military and naval friends, who desired that the obelisk should be brought to this country. Some obloquy had been thrown on the condition of this monument, under the impression that it was not of adequate value to compensate for the trouble and expense of removal. Perhaps its intrinsic value might not be much; but, as a monument, and as a trophy, it had a value peculiarly its own. The sculptures, he understood, were in comparatively good preservation. He had called attention to the subject solely at the request of several military and naval officers.
The EARL of CARLISLEacknowledged the importance which attached to the obelisk, not merely as a memorial of the ancient art of Egypt, but also as a monument of British heroism. He had consulted with his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, and inquiries had been made on the subject. There were, he apprehended, some mechanical difficulties, and all he could say was, that the matter was still under consideration.
House adjourned till To-morrow.