Lords Sitting of 6 February 1851

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Dunsany.

ABOLITION OF THE LORD LIEUTENANCY (IRELAND).
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYsaid, he wished to ask the noble Marquess the Lord President of the Council a question, to which he hoped he would by courtesy give an answer. He understood from what had taken place in another place, that the Government intended to introduce a Bill for the abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant in Ireland. Would the noble Marquess tell him, whether it was intended that the measure should be introduced on an early day of the Session? He hoped sufficient time would be given to the people of Ireland to express their opinions upon it by petitions to that House or otherwise.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied, that from what had passed in another place, it would be seen that it was the intention of the Government to introduce a measure for the purpose of abolishing the office of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland: but no notice had been given of the period when the Bill would be brought forward, and therefore he was not in a position to inform the noble Marquess at what specific time the measure would be introduced. At the same time he was sure he might say, that the noble Marquess might rest satisfied that ample opportunity would be afforded to the people of Ireland to consider and examine the measure.

LORD MINTO'S MISSION TO THE COURT OF ROME.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid: My Lords, I am desirous of asking my noble Friend who holds the office of Lord Privy Seal, whether there is any truth in the allegation which has been very industriously propagated in relation to that transaction which now goes, in the cant phrase of the day, under the denomination of "the Papal aggression." A report has been industriously sent about that my noble Friend, by some act of his, either of commission or of omission, has made himself a party to the proceedings of the Supreme Pon-
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tiff on this subject. My Lords, I am desirous of knowing whether there is any truth in this allegation—whether anything ever took place between my noble Friend and his Holiness the Pope, which can give a colour to the allegations made on this subject? I am sure it is most desirable that the public mind should be disabused on this subject, if it has been misled; and on the other hand, if my noble Friend has incautiously given any countenance or encouragement to what has been done, then, however much I may be disposed to trust that he may long retain the office which he now holds, I must take leave to state that I think my noble Friend has acted with a want of caution which I should not have expected from a man of his experience.
The EARL of MINTOsaid: My Lords, I have no difficulty in assuring my noble Friend that I have shown no want of that caution for which he is good enough to give me credit. I will answer my noble Friend's question in one word. There is no truth whatever in the report, or in any part of the report, to which my noble Friend adverts. No communication whatever upon the subject of this aggression was ever made or even hinted to me; and I really am entirely at a loss to guess on what grounds or authority the report on this subject, which I certainly heard with considerable surprise, has arisen. My Lords, during the period of my residence in Rome, in the course of very frequent communications with the Pope and the Cardinal Secretary of State, no allusion was at any time made to any design of organising a Roman Catholic hierarchy in this country, or of any measure such as that of which we have lately heard so much. I neither received any communication upon it from these illustrious individuals, nor did it ever form the subject of any conversation, public or private, of any other individual during my stay. And I assure your Lordships that no one of your Lordships could have been more completely surprised at the arrival of the Papal document in this country than I was. My Lords, I trust that this assurance will be satisfactory to your Lordships.

THE CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.
LORD WODEHOUSEpresented two petitions—one from the commissioners for the municipality of the city of Cape-town, and another from the resident householders of the municipalities of Cape-town and Green Point, on a subject which he considered of

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great importance. The latter petition was very numerously and respectably signed. The petitioners represented that Her Majesty had been advised to establish a Legislative Council and a House of Assembly in the colony, of which Cape-town was the capital; and that as the Legislative Council had lost the confidence of that colony, they were anxious to lay before their Lordships a plan of constitution which they considered a better plan than the present, and of which they furnished the details. They further represented that as the Governor had been empowered to make, continue, and alter the existing laws of the colony with the assistance of the House of Assembly, and as it was impossible for the House of Assembly to continue its functions under the present constitution, it was necessary that measures should be taken to remedy the evils which must of necessity result from the present state of things. He did not wish to be understood as concurring in all the representations of the petitioners, but he thought their Lordships would feel that the present state of affairs in this colony was one which all parties must desire to see speedily put an end to, as being fraught with very great dangers to the colony, and also to the friendly feeling which the colonists entertained towards this country. It was therefore desirable, and doubtless his noble Friend (Earl Grey) desired, that the question should be brought before Parliament as soon as convenient. He would, therefore, ask his noble Friend whether he was prepared now, or at any early period, to lay on the table of the House copies of any correspondence that may have passed between the Home Government and the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope, relative to the establishment of the constitution proposed to be introduced at the Cape of Good Hope, and also copies of any other despatches or communications which may have passed on the subject?
EARL GREYsaid: In answer to the question put by my noble Friend, I beg to inform the House that it is my intention to lay on your Lordships' table certain papers connected with the proposed alteration of the constitution of the tape of Good Hope; but it is not in my power to do so until further advices are received from the Cape, because it is necessary that the despatches addressed to the Governor of the colony should be answered before the correspondence is laid on the Table of the House.

MR. NICHOLLS, LATE SECRETARY TO THE POOR-LAW BOARD.
EARL FORTESCUE,before putting the question of which he had given notice, respecting the grant of a retiring allowance to Mr. Nicholls, late one of the Secretaries to the Poor Law Board, begged to state I some facts which bore essentially on the merits of his case. Mr. Nicholls was originally a captain in the service of the East India Company. On his retirement from that service he took up his residence in the parish of Southwell in Notts. While in that place he became so impressed with the evils arising from the mismanagement of the poor under the law as it then existed, that he could not refrain from attempting to redress them. He did so with so much success, that in 1832, some years after his removal from Southwell, the system which he had established there attracted the attention of the Commission appointed to inquire into the operation of the poor-laws; and, in consequence of the terms in which he was noticed in their reports, he was applied to on the passing of the New Poor Law, in 1834, to become one of the three Commissioners for the administration of that law. At that time he was holding the situation of manager of the Branch Bank of England at Birmingham, at a salary of 2,000 l. a year; and so anxious was the Bank of England to retain the benefit of his services, that on hearing of the application of the Government to him they volunteered to offer him an additional 500 l. a year, and intimated, that if he did not think that advance sufficient, they were prepared to give him still more. Mr. Nicholls, with a public spirit which did him much honour, gave up his private lucrative situation for a more arduous and less profitable employment in the public service, and accepted the commissionership. So satisfied was the Government with his conduct in the administration of the poor-law in this country, that when it was in contemplation to extend a similar law to Ireland, he was appointed to visit that country and inquire into the propriety of such a measure. On his report, though shorn of its most important recommendation with respect to mendicancy, was founded the poor-law for Ireland, which passed in the year 1838; and at the end of 1838 Mr. Nicholls was appointed to superintend its execution. Early in the year 1839, his (Earl Fortescue's) acquaintance with that gentleman commenced. He was, of course, by his position as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland at that

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time brought into constant communication with Mr. Nicholls; and in that and the two following years he had constant occasion to admire the great abilities, the persevering industry, the cheerful good temper and the great self-devotion to the public interests which so uniformly animated his exertions. In the autumn of 1841, he (Earl Fortescue) left Ireland. Mr. Nicholls was removed shortly after; but, without questioning the policy of that removal, it may fairly be said that those who succeeded to his office did not find it easier than he had to overcome the difficulties of carrying out the new system. After Mr. Nicholls returned to England, he remained a member of the Poor Law Board until the constitution of that Board was altered by the Act of 1847, when he was appointed one of the two assistant secretaries, with a salary of 1,500 l. a year. Since then Mr. Nicholls had found himself compelled, by impaired health, to give in his resignation; and, after a service of sixteen years, he was not entitled by the constitution of the Poor Law Board to any retiring pension. He (Earl Fortescue) hoped, however, that the justice of the country would not suffer a public officer who had sacrificed to it so much of his personal interests to retire into private life at the age of more than 70, without some provision for his declining years, and some acknowledgment of his valuable services. He (Earl Fortescue) had not had any communication, directly or indirectly, with Mr. Nicholls on this subject; but having witnessed his labours and known his merits during the most trying and most important part of his official career, he felt it a duty not more to Mr. Nicholls than to that House and to himself to say what he had on his behalf. He would now ask his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council, whether it was in the contemplation of the Government to make any provision by way of a retiring pension for Mr. Nicholls?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE,before answering the question which the noble Lord put to him, begged to say how entirely he concurred in the whole of the statements he had made respecting Mr. Nicholls. With many parts of the statement of his noble Friend he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) agreed, from a personal knowledge of the facts to which they related, and he had no reason to doubt the other circumstances that had been mentioned. Such being the case, he could have no hesitation in stating that the mode
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of appreciating the merits of Mr. Nicholls, and providing a reward suitable to his services so long and so ably rendered, was under the consideration of Her Majesty's Ministers. When he said this, it must be remembered that any plan for carrying out such an object must be submitted in the first instance to the other House of Parliament, and he therefore thought it inexpedient in that place to state what was the nature of the reward proposed to be conferred on Mr. Nicholls; although he had no doubt that when it was made public, it would prove satisfactory to all parties.
LORD BROUGHAMfelt it due to Mr. Nicholls, to justice, and to the great system of the poor-law, in the administration of which that gentleman had taken so prominant a part, to declare that Mr. Nicholls had been the great and principal agent in devising the new law, and in carrying it afterwards into execution. He was anxious to state his entire concurrence in all that had been urged by his noble Friend (Earl Fortescue) on behalf of Mr. Nicholls; and he could add this fact of his own knowledge—for his noble Friend opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne) and himself had been the cause of bringing Mr. Nicholls to town—that with a due regard to his private circumstances, and with a well-founded and proper view to the interests of his family, Mr. Nicholls felt much hesitation in accepting the offer of Government, and that his noble Friend and himself had removed that hesitation by assuring him that his services were—he would not say absolutely, for that would not be true of any man—but were essentially necessary for bringing into effect that great change of the law, of which he might add that Mr. Nicholls was, practically speaking, the originator. Southwell was the parish in which the improvements of the poor-law were first tried; and it was upon the experimental proofs of those improvements that the New Poor Law was framed. After dwelling for some time on the inestimable value of the services of Mr. Nicholls, his Lordship added that he could confirm the assertion of his noble Friend opposite, that partly from a love of his system, and partly from a desire to carry his principles into effect on a great scale, Mr. Nicholls had given up the lucrative appointment under the Bank of England which he held at Birmingham. On a recent change of system, recommended by a Committee of the House of Commons, the salary of that gentleman, as assistant-secretary to the

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Poor Law Board, had been reduced to something more than half the amount of his salary as manager of the Birmingham branch of the Bank of England, and hence the retirement of a gentleman whose services had been of inestimable value to his country.
The EARL of CARLISLE,who had be-come acquainted with the merits of Mr. Nicholls during his tenure of office in Ireland, bore testimony to the high value of his services, and declared that, of all the men whom he had met in private and public life, Mr. Nicholls appeared to him to be the most honourable.
The EARL of ST. GERMANS,as late Secretary for Ireland, expressed a similar high opinion of Mr. Nicholls' character and services.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that his noble and learned Friend, when speaking of the merits of Mr. Nicholls, might have added, that the poor were better taken care of in England and Ireland under that gentleman's administration of the poor-law than they had ever been taken care of previously.
House adjourned till To-morrow.