DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND REPAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND) BILL. (Hansard, 13 May 1850)

§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE
, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said, that although, from the nature of the Bill, and the object which it had in view, he did not anticipate any opposition either to the principle or the details of the measure, he still felt that it would be only respectful towards their Lordships to state shortly the grounds upon which he presented it for their approbation. He repeated, that he did not anticipate any opposition to the measure, because he knew that the feeling of their Lordships was one of liberality towards the people of Ireland; and while he was far from thinking that the Bill exhibited any undue liberality, he could not but believe that it would meet with their favourable consideration. It would be in the recollection of the House that, in consequence of the pressure of the famine which visited that country in 1846, 1380 and which was greatly aggravated in the course of the subsequent years. Her Majesty's Government were under the necessity of proposing to Parliament a variety of measures with the view of enabling the people to meet the difficulties in which they were placed, and even of saving the lives of the people. The object of the principal of those measures was to authorise sums of money to be borrowed, partly from the State, and partly from individuals. All these acts received the sanction of Parliament, and the effect had been to create an enormous amount of debt, which the resources of many districts, particularly in the south and west of the country, were entirely inadequate to repay within any moderate period of time. Under those circumstances the Government were desirous of alleviating the pressure upon those districts, and of simplifying the mode of repayment. It was thought expedient to provide, in the first place, that a sum of 300,000l., bearing interest at 3 per cent, should be advanced to certain distressed poor-law unions and electoral divisions, to enable them to discharge the liabilities which they had incurred, more particularly in providing food and clothing for the poor during the years of distress. That was one object of the Bill. Another object was to consolidate the various debts which were contracted under Sir J. Burgoyne's and other recent Acts, and to extend the time of payment to forty years. It was not proposed to extend the time for repayment in all cases to forty years, but power would be given to the Treasury to take into consideration the condition of such unions as should not be able to make the repayments in less time, and to extend the full period to them, if they should think fit. He was happy to state, that owing in a great measure, he believed, to the increased workhouse accommodation which was offered as a test in that country, the number of persons receiving out-of-door relief during the month ending the 31st of March was one-third less than the number for the corresponding month of last year.

The EARL of GLENGALL
had no objection to the proposed advance of 300,000l.; but, with regard to the other portion of the Bill, namely, that relating to repayments, he considered the powers proposed to be given to the Treasury as exceedingly arbitrary and unconstitutional; and he was understood to give notice that in Committee he would propose certain Amendments on that part of the measure.

The DUKE of LEINSTER
thought that the powers given to the Treasury to enforce the payment of rates were absolutely necessary. In the union of which he was chairman, he was constantly outvoted when he proposed that they should make an effort to repay the advances that had been made to them. He was, therefore, very glad that there was power given to the Treasury to enforce payment.

The EARL of MOUNTCASHELL
said, that Celbridge was situated better than any other union in Ireland. The pauper population was very small, the land was very productive, and near the best market in the country. But in the south and west of Ireland, the unions were in a much worse condition and of greater magnitude. Serious evils might be created there if the powers under this Bill were fully put in force. He trusted that some measures would be taken in order to protect particular unions from falling into utter ruin, and to assist them to extricate themselves from the evils to which they were exposed.

The EARL of WICKLOW
agreed in thinking this one of the most arbitrary measures that had ever been introduced. At present the debts which it was proposed to consolidate were repayable, some in ten and others in twenty years; but by this measure the Treasury had power to enforce payment within one year if they thought proper. He did not mean to say that the Government intended to act in this harsh manner; on the contrary, he believed that the Bill had been framed in the most humane spirit possible; but, although that was his opinion, it might not be the opinion of the guardians of the different unions of Ireland, and he feared that the alarm which that part of the Bill would create, would have the effect of paralysing the exertions of the collectors, guardians, and ratepayers. He suggested that a provision should be introduced to the effect that on no account should a rate be levied beyond a certain percentage. Unless it were accompanied with such a provision, the Bill would defeat a measure in which the Government themselves professed to have great confidence for ameliorating the condition of Ireland—he meant the Encumbered Estates Act.

§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE
assured the House that the Bill conferred no powers upon the Treasury which they had not possessed for the last few years, except the power of distributing the burden of repayment over a longer period than was 1382 originally agreed upon, if such a relaxation should be found to be necessary. It was, of course, desirable that the distressed unions should be relieved; but it was not therefore desirable that those unions who could pay should have facilities for delaying payment. The Treasury asked for no power which they did not think indispensable to enable them to exercise their discretion with advantage; and nothing was further from the intention of Government than that those powers should be exercised oppressively. He was sure that the Bill was looked for with great anxiety in many parts of Ireland, and he hoped it would pass with the unanimous sanction of their Lordships.

The MARQUESS of WESTMEATH
said, that what he particularly objected to was the arbitrary power which the Bill placed in the hands of the Poor Law Commissioners, who, by themselves or their delegates, might exercise great oppression, He therefore could not allow this Bill to pass without protesting against a principle which was now becoming familiar to Parliament, namely, that of placing in the hands of the Poor Law Commissioners a power of which the House of Commons had always been most jealous—he meant the power of levying taxes.

§ LORD BEAUMONT
thought that the Bill had been greatly misunderstood. It only gave the Treasury a wider discretion than they had before; it gave them a greater latitude, so as to enable them to allow unions which were really distressed, a greater length of time to pay their debts, and to call for payment from those unions which were able to pay in such proportion and as early as their circumstances seemed to justify. That latitude was not reduced by the present Bill, but extended according to the discretion of the Treasury.

§ LORD REDESDALE
was suprised at such a power being given to the Treasury as this Bill conferred—a power that might be managed to a most dangerous extent in reference to elections. For, supposing that a certain union owed a considerable debt, and that the Commissioners a short time before an election was to take place demanded payment of the money, a certain candidate, in favour with the Government, might have it in his power to obtain good terms for the union, and then might come before the constituents with superior advantages, and obtain his election in consequence. That was a most dangerous and unconstitutional power to be vested in 1383 the Treasury. He did not meant to say that, in the present case, any undue influence would be used in reference to elections; but he thought it was not a fitting power for the Parliament to place in the hands of any Treasury, whatever confidence they might have in the Government. He hoped that some Parliamentary security would be required against the improper exercise of this power.