Lords Sitting of 13 May 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Parliamentary Voters (Ireland).
2a Distressed Unions Advances and Repayment of Advances (Ireland).
Reported.—Sunday Trading Prevention.

UNIVERSITY REFORM.
LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from the London University College, praying for better accommodation to assistant surgeons in the Navy. These gentlemen were a most meritorious class of officers, and he hoped their claims would receive the attention of the Government. He was glad to have that opportunity of reverting to a conversation which took place a few nights since with the noble Marquess opposite, and a noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) on the subject of the proposed Commission to inquire into the state of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. He had since then received many communications, by which it appeared that the observations of the noble Lord on that occasion were most correct, namely, that very great improvements had recently taken place in the course of study and discipline, both at Cambridge and Oxford. He believed he might say that his noble Friend (the Duke of Wellington), the Chancellor of Oxford, and his noble and learned Friend (Lord Lyndhurst), the High Steward of Cambridge, both concurred with him in deprecating any rash and inconsiderate interference with the Universities. He hoped that no Germanic proceedings and no Germanic discipline would be introduced into our ancient and hitherto flourishing Universities from foreign institutions of a similar character. He had no hesitation in saying that he was strongly in favour of the existing

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system, which in his own judgment was improving every day, and capable, as it undoubtedly was, of further improvement. He hoped that system would not be rashly exchanged for any foreign system.
The DUKE of WELLINGTON, in reference to the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, rose to declare that the University of Oxford was most anxious to introduce every improvement which was desirable into the system of education adopted in that ancient seat of learning. As far as he could understand the subject, there was no desire in any quarter to introduce German projects, or any system of that kind, into the system of education now in force in the University of Oxford. That university, he repeated, was anxious to meet the wishes of Her Majesty's Government and of the country at large, and to introduce every improvement that was at once useful and practicable. But that which the University of Oxford could not do, and which it would not be induced by any consideration to do, was this: it would not repeal the statutes by which the different colleges of that University were governed. Various portions of the inhabitants of this country—some living in its towns, and others in its rural districts—various young persons, now receiving their education in different schools, enjoyed important rights under the separate statutes of the separate colleges. The body to which he (the Duke of Wellington) had the honour to belong—namely, the Chancellor, Masters, and scholars of the University of Oxford, and the governing bodies of the several colleges—was bound to respect and maintain and carry into execution the statutes of the several colleges. He hoped that these bodies would not be required to submit to an inquiry directly tending to the repeal of those statutes, which the law of the land desired them to carry into execution for the benefit of the individuals who claimed rights and privileges under them. He made this statement now, which he should have made on a former occasion, had he been in the House at the time, because there appeared to him to be a tendency to institute an inquiry of the nature which he had described—an inquiry which, if instituted, would seriously affect some of the most loyal subjects of Her Majesty, who might be placed in a situation of the greatest difficulty as they would have to decide between their duty of obedience to Her Majesty's commands,
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and the duty and respect which they owe to the execution of the law.
Petition to lie on the table.

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.
LORD STANLEY: My Lords, since our last meeting in this place intelligence of an important character as to the affairs of Greece has reached this country—intelligence to which I am anxious to call the attention of the noble Marquess opposite. We have learned, my Lords, by means of the usual organs of public communication—and we have reason to believe that the information thus given to the public is not inaccurate—we have learned, I say, that the good offices of France in attempting to arrange the differences between the Government of Great Britain and that of Greece have not led to a satisfactory termination—that the French Minister has withdrawn from the negotiations—that, in consequence of his withdrawal, coercive measures of an extraordinary character have been resorted to by the British Minister and the British Admiral on the station—and that under the pressure of those coercive measures the Greek Government has submitted to the terms which we have imposed upon her, and which a British fleet has been sent to enforce. I hope, my Lords, that Her Majesty's Ministers will immediately lay before us all the official information which they may have received as to all the circumstances connected with this transaction, and especially as to the circumstances which rendered the interference of the French Government abortive, and led to the retirement of the French Minister. But, be that as it may, whether that information be given to or withheld from us, I take the earliest opportunity of giving notice, that at an early period after Whitsuntide recess I shall call your attention, my Lords, to all the circumstances of this most unfortunate transaction.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: I can assure the noble Baron, that all the information we have respecting this transaction shall be submitted forthwith to the I inspection and judgment of Parliament. But, as the noble Baron has referred to the unfortunate rupture of the negotiations, although such negotiations finally led to a very satisfactory and successful result, I may be permitted to avail myself of this the earliest opportunity to say, that the rupture in the negotiations occurred in consequence of the French negotiator having

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broken them off on a single point, and that that rupture would have been prevented had the later instructions sent out from England arrived in Greece three or four days earlier. The result of that rupture was that hostilities were again resorted to; but the Greek Government, having then desired to know the terms on which we were prepared to receive satisfaction, and to resume terms of friendliness and peace, was directly informed by our Minister, Mr. Wyse, what those terms were; and the noble Baron opposite, and all others in this House, will hear, I am persuaded, with unmixed satisfaction, that Mr. Wyse, acting under his instructions, thought that the moment had at last arrived when he could make it manifest to Greece and manifest to the whole world that the object of our hostility was to assert a principle, and not to bear hardly on the resources of Greece. Mr. Wyse did this in the exercise of a just moderation, which has met the high approbation of the Government at home. He so far relaxed in his demands that on the very first moment in which Greece evinced a disposition fairly to meet our demands, he offered her terms, to which Greece subsequently acceded, differing indeed in form, but not very different in substance, from those on which the Minister of France had negotiated with us, and which he deemed to be just and equitable. When those terms are laid on the table, it will be seen that they only differ in one point from those approved by the French Minister, and that point is favourable to Greece; so that, in the exercise of its free discretion Greece has obtained terms in a pecuniary sense much better than those which the French Minister here deemed her entitled to. This statement will, I am sure, be heard with satisfaction by all those who think with me that a strong State in dealing with a weak State ought not to presume on account of its strength, but that when it can obtain that, which even the weakness of its adversary is not entitled to refuse on the score of justice, it should be content, and should abstain from urging its claims further. That principle being once admitted, it may be prepared to relax its claims, if it be deemed expedient, and may proceed to treat with it on terms not merely of fairness but of indulgence. It would have been a satisfaction to me, my Lords, if the accommodation with Greece, at which we have arrived at last, had been
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brought about by the assistance and concurrence of the French Government; for I am bound to admit that during all these transactions the French Government has exerted itself most actively to bring about an amicable accommodation between ourselves and Greece. It was owing to an accident of the winds, which occasioned a delay of three or four days, that that accommodation was not brought about by the instrumentality of the French Government; but, not having been so brought about, it is a satisfaction to me to think that it has been concluded on terms nearly the same in substance, though different in form, with those which that Government suggested and thought to be correct.
LORD STANLEY: When these papers shall be laid on the table, your Lordships will be more able to judge how far they warrant the self-congratulation in which the noble Marquess has indulged respecting them. It seems to me most unfortunate that this case should again be productive of disappointment, owing to the delay of three or four days in the transmission of intelligence. It is somewhat strange, too, that the same misfortune should occur twice in these negotiations—once at their commencement, and once again at their close. The noble Marquess must have a strange idea of free exercise of discretion by the Greek Government when he applies such a phrase to its submission to terms dictated under a threat of bombardment by the fleet of the moat powerful maritime nation in Europe.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: The threat of bombarding the Piræus—just adverted to by the noble Lord—is entirely an assumption of his own.
Subject dropped.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLERGY (IRELAND.)
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHrose to present a petition from the board of guardians of the union of Thomastown in Ireland, on the subject of the relative position of the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland towards each other, and praying for a grant of public money to make provision for the clergy of the latter denomination. He thought that he should best explain the object of the petitioners by entering into a short detail of the statements in their petition. They commenced by declaring that the population of the ecclesiastical union of which they formed a part amounted to 4,000 persons; that the income of

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the Protestant incumbent was 410 l. a year; that he lived in a house which had cost 1,025 l., and that he was in the enjoyment of twenty-two acres of glebe. They further stated that the church in which he performed divine service had been built at the expense of the parishioners for the purpose of accommodating 120 persons, but that never on any occasion had there been more than 100 persons present, and that in general not more than 60 attended. They further stated that the Roman Catholic Chapel of Thomastown was an ancient structure, and too small to contain the Roman Catholic congregation of that place. There were also two other Roman Catholic chapels to which the same description would apply in the same ecclesiastical union, and those chapels the Roman Catholic inhabitants were unable to rebuild, owing to the state of poverty to which they had been reduced by the late famine. The petitioners further said that in the last few years Parliament had granted two millions of money to extend church accommodation in England and Wales; that it had also granted other large sums to accomplish the same object in the Highlands of Scotland, and that by such bounty church accommodation had been found for 480,000 persons who previously were without it. The petitioners further added, that within the same time not a single farthing had been given by Parliament to find church accommodation for the Roman Catholic population of Ireland. They declared that they were not moved to ask for some provision to be made for the increase of their places of worship by any envy or jealousy of the superiority of their Protestant neighbours, with whom they lived on terms of unusual cordiality and friendship, but entreated Parliament to provide some remedy for the religious inequality which they had set forth in their petition; and, without wishing to inflict any injury upon vested rights, they implored Parliament to apply the surplus property of the Protestant Church of Ireland to purposes of public utility, and especially to the increase of church accommodation for the Roman Catholic population of Ireland. After expressing his condemnation of this part of the prayer of the petitioners, he said, that he would not at present enter into the question whether the Church of England in Ireland had any surplus property or not. If there were any such surplus, the Church of England in this country had the first claim to the appropriation of it. He believed
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that the united Churches of England and Ireland formed but one Church; and, therefore, it would be unfair as well as unjust to appropriate to any other Church the property which belonged to the Church of England and Ireland in common. On this occasion he must tender to the petitioners and to all who sought to obtain a public provision for the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, his most earnest advice not to propose to take from the Protestant Church of England the aid to be given to the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. By offering such a suggestion, those who were friendly to the prayer of the petitioners would throw back to an infinitely distant period the fulfilment of their object. There was in this country a Protestant feeling which might be easily roused to rescue the Protestant Church from any meditated offence or injury. His firm conviction was, that the Protestants of England would never grant to the Roman Catholic Church any boon which involved injury and offence to their own Church. Whilst he was prepared to reject the prayer of these petitioners, as to the source from which aid was to be extended to the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, there was another portion of their petition in which he concurred, namely, that in which they declared that they wanted no aid which would bring their Church into conjunction with the State. It would be impossible for the Government of a Protestant State to interfere in the distribution of the patronage of a Roman Catholic Church. A Protestant Government could not have such knowledge of the men who were worthy of patronage as would enable it to exercise such patronage properly. Besides, he was satisfied that in the Protestant mind of England the strongest feelings of suspicion would be excited, if a constant intercourse were carried on between the Government and the various dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church. It was held by many to be unjust to take from the imperial revenue funds to endow the Roman Catholic Church; but, for his own part, he knew of no measure which would partake more of an imperial character than one which would improve the social condition of the population of Ireland. The due reward of such a policy would be found in the better feelings and more orderly conduct of the people of Ireland. If he might on this occasion be permitted to advert to any fund from which the means of increasing

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church accommodation for the Roman Catholics of Ireland might be taken, he should say that it was to be found in the sums due to the Imperial Treasury, the disposal of which was to be provided for in the Distressed Unions Advances and Repayments of Advances (Ireland) Bill which stood that evening for a second reading, In the first instance, he would gladly see those advances, as they were repaid, appropriated to the provision of church accommodation for the Roman Catholics of Ireland. In the next place, if there were a surplus after that object was accomplished, he would gladly appropriate it to the building of glebe-houses for the Roman Catholic clergy; and, if there were a surplus beyond that, he would purchase lands with which that Church might be endowed. And when he considered the vast quantity of land which was now thrown into the market by the instrumentality of the Incumbered Estates Act, he had no doubt that it would be of great advantage to Ireland itself to apply the money thus repaid to the State to the purchase of small estates for such purposes.
LORD REDESDALEexpressed his regret that this question had been mooted, as it would lead to much controversy and excitement in the country, without the prospect of any good result.
Petition to lie on the table.

DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND REPAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said, that although, from the nature of the Bill, and the object which it had in view, he did not anticipate any opposition either to the principle or the details of the measure, he still felt that it would be only respectful towards their Lordships to state shortly the grounds upon which he presented it for their approbation. He repeated, that he did not anticipate any opposition to the measure, because he knew that the feeling of their Lordships was one of liberality towards the people of Ireland; and while he was far from thinking that the Bill exhibited any undue liberality, he could not but believe that it would meet with their favourable consideration. It would be in the recollection of the House that, in consequence of the pressure of the famine which visited that country in 1846,
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and which was greatly aggravated in the course of the subsequent years. Her Majesty's Government were under the necessity of proposing to Parliament a variety of measures with the view of enabling the people to meet the difficulties in which they were placed, and even of saving the lives of the people. The object of the principal of those measures was to authorise sums of money to be borrowed, partly from the State, and partly from individuals. All these acts received the sanction of Parliament, and the effect had been to create an enormous amount of debt, which the resources of many districts, particularly in the south and west of the country, were entirely inadequate to repay within any moderate period of time. Under those circumstances the Government were desirous of alleviating the pressure upon those districts, and of simplifying the mode of repayment. It was thought expedient to provide, in the first place, that a sum of 300,000 l., bearing interest at 3 per cent, should be advanced to certain distressed poor-law unions and electoral divisions, to enable them to discharge the liabilities which they had incurred, more particularly in providing food and clothing for the poor during the years of distress. That was one object of the Bill. Another object was to consolidate the various debts which were contracted under Sir J. Burgoyne's and other recent Acts, and to extend the time of payment to forty years. It was not proposed to extend the time for repayment in all cases to forty years, but power would be given to the Treasury to take into consideration the condition of such unions as should not be able to make the repayments in less time, and to extend the full period to them, if they should think fit. He was happy to state, that owing in a great measure, he believed, to the increased workhouse accommodation which was offered as a test in that country, the number of persons receiving out-of-door relief during the month ending the 31st of March was one-third less than the number for the corresponding month of last year.
The EARL of GLENGALLhad no objection to the proposed advance of 300,000 l.; but, with regard to the other portion of the Bill, namely, that relating to repayments, he considered the powers proposed to be given to the Treasury as exceedingly arbitrary and unconstitutional; and he was understood to give notice that in Committee he would propose certain Amendments on that part of the measure.
The DUKE of LEINSTERthought that the powers given to the Treasury to enforce the payment of rates were absolutely necessary. In the union of which he was chairman, he was constantly outvoted when he proposed that they should make an effort to repay the advances that had been made to them. He was, therefore, very glad that there was power given to the Treasury to enforce payment.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, that Celbridge was situated better than any other union in Ireland. The pauper population was very small, the land was very productive, and near the best market in the country. But in the south and west of Ireland, the unions were in a much worse condition and of greater magnitude. Serious evils might be created there if the powers under this Bill were fully put in force. He trusted that some measures would be taken in order to protect particular unions from falling into utter ruin, and to assist them to extricate themselves from the evils to which they were exposed.
The EARL of WICKLOWagreed in thinking this one of the most arbitrary measures that had ever been introduced. At present the debts which it was proposed to consolidate were repayable, some in ten and others in twenty years; but by this measure the Treasury had power to enforce payment within one year if they thought proper. He did not mean to say that the Government intended to act in this harsh manner; on the contrary, he believed that the Bill had been framed in the most humane spirit possible; but, although that was his opinion, it might not be the opinion of the guardians of the different unions of Ireland, and he feared that the alarm which that part of the Bill would create, would have the effect of paralysing the exertions of the collectors, guardians, and ratepayers. He suggested that a provision should be introduced to the effect that on no account should a rate be levied beyond a certain percentage. Unless it were accompanied with such a provision, the Bill would defeat a measure in which the Government themselves professed to have great confidence for ameliorating the condition of Ireland—he meant the Encumbered Estates Act.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEassured the House that the Bill conferred no powers upon the Treasury which they had not possessed for the last few years, except the power of distributing the burden of repayment over a longer period than was
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originally agreed upon, if such a relaxation should be found to be necessary. It was, of course, desirable that the distressed unions should be relieved; but it was not therefore desirable that those unions who could pay should have facilities for delaying payment. The Treasury asked for no power which they did not think indispensable to enable them to exercise their discretion with advantage; and nothing was further from the intention of Government than that those powers should be exercised oppressively. He was sure that the Bill was looked for with great anxiety in many parts of Ireland, and he hoped it would pass with the unanimous sanction of their Lordships.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHsaid, that what he particularly objected to was the arbitrary power which the Bill placed in the hands of the Poor Law Commissioners, who, by themselves or their delegates, might exercise great oppression, He therefore could not allow this Bill to pass without protesting against a principle which was now becoming familiar to Parliament, namely, that of placing in the hands of the Poor Law Commissioners a power of which the House of Commons had always been most jealous—he meant the power of levying taxes.
LORD BEAUMONTthought that the Bill had been greatly misunderstood. It only gave the Treasury a wider discretion than they had before; it gave them a greater latitude, so as to enable them to allow unions which were really distressed, a greater length of time to pay their debts, and to call for payment from those unions which were able to pay in such proportion and as early as their circumstances seemed to justify. That latitude was not reduced by the present Bill, but extended according to the discretion of the Treasury.
LORD REDESDALEwas suprised at such a power being given to the Treasury as this Bill conferred—a power that might be managed to a most dangerous extent in reference to elections. For, supposing that a certain union owed a considerable debt, and that the Commissioners a short time before an election was to take place demanded payment of the money, a certain candidate, in favour with the Government, might have it in his power to obtain good terms for the union, and then might come before the constituents with superior advantages, and obtain his election in consequence. That was a most dangerous and unconstitutional power to be vested in

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the Treasury. He did not meant to say that, in the present case, any undue influence would be used in reference to elections; but he thought it was not a fitting power for the Parliament to place in the hands of any Treasury, whatever confidence they might have in the Government. He hoped that some Parliamentary security would be required against the improper exercise of this power.
After a few words from the Earl of GLENGALL,
On Question, Resolved in the Affirmative.
Bill read 2a
House adjourned till To-morrow.