Lords Sitting of 22 March 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.
3a Consolidated Fund; Registrar of Metropolitan Public Carriages; Turnpike Roads and Bridge Trusts (Ireland).

WATERFORD, WEXFORD, WICKLOW, AND DUBLIN RAILWAY COMPANY.
The Order of the Day being read, for the attendance at the Bar of this House of Mr. Charles De Lacy Nash, the Secretary to the Committee of the Company, Mr. William Wood, and Mr. John Wickey Stable, the Yeoman Usher informed the House, that Mr. Nash was in attendance; whereupon he was called in, and examined: He was directed to withdraw. Then Mr. John Wickey Stable was called in; and having been sworn and examined, he was directed to withdraw. Then the Yeoman Usher informed the House, that Mr. Richard Dorington Dickenson, an officer of the House of Commons, was in attendance (pursuant to Message of Yesterday), with reference to certain documents (and pursuant to leave of that House); whereupon Mr. Dickenson was called in; and, having been sworn and examined, he was directed to withdraw. Then Mr. William Wood was called in; and, having been

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sworn and examined, he was directed to withdraw.
The Examination and Evidence to be printed: And Mr. Charles De Lacy Nash was again Ordered to attend at the Bar of this House on Monday next, at Five o'clock.

EXHIBITION OF THE WORKS OF INDUSTRY OF ALL NATIONS.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he had already obtained a copy of the Royal Commission for the Exhibition of 1851, and he now wished to obtain a copy of any report which the Royal Commissioners might have made. He should avail himself of the present occasion to reiterate his former objections to the proposed locality of this exhibition—namely, Hyde Park. He fully concurred with the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests in thinking that Victoria Park would not do for the exhibition; but what objection could there be to select Regent's Park as the site for this great spectacle, where he believed the erection of a building of the necessary dimensions would be attended with little or none of the inconveniences which it must occasion in Hyde Park; for his own part, he could see none, always supposing that the exhibition was to go on. He thought that it would prove a great hardship on some of the middling and on many of the hardworking classes of the country, if the money for the erection of this immense building were to be raised by voluntary contributions. If the object were so purely national, as it was now represented to be by Whigs and Tories, by Free-traders and Protectionists, why should not 40,000 l. or 50,000 l be contributed towards it out of the public purse? He could state of his own knowledge that many tradesmen and shopkeepers in this great metropolis were putting their names to subscriptions, and consenting to act as committee-men, under a species, he would not say of compulsion owing to the benevolent intentions of those high influences which sanctioned it, but of douce violence, as the French styled it, on the part of their customers. One person, who had subscribed 100 l., had said that he could not help doing so, but he would willingly give 200 l. more to do away with it altogether, for he was sure such would be the effects of competition, that he should suffer from it materially in his business. Before he sat down he would say a word to his noble Friend behind him (Lord Stanley). He
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(Lord Brougham) saw that at the meeting held yesterday—not a meeting of 168 peers, but a meeting of 168 mayors—that his noble Friend had said that he (Lord Brougham) had been "somewhat volatile" in his objections to the proposed exhibition. If the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne), or some of the noble Lords whom he saw near him—all grave, stable, solid men, and remarkable for their discretion—had made the charge which his noble Friend had made against him, he should have thought it to be a sarcasm; but when his noble Friend, to whom he did not apply any one of those epithets in the smallest extent or slightest degree, made such a charge against him, he considered it to be a compliment. He might almost consider himself a pupil of his noble Friend. He had certainly gained some knowledge under his auspices and tuition; he might have caught a little, not much, of his nature, for volatile meant flighty. He might be open to a similar charge, but one flight he certainly had never taken, namely, a flight from the House of Peers to the house of mayors—to make an answer, in the house of mayors, to a speech made in his presence in the House of Peers. He would not say how far good communications might improve bad manners, but he might yet improve somewhat in that respect, and take a leaf out of his noble Friend's book. This was really a serious matter—for a species of compulsion, he repeated, was used which was very injurious—and as the intended exhibition was exciting the attention of the whole country, he hoped the Government would take up the subject with the view of considering whether some grant should not be made, so that men might not be fined for their generosity or their actions under pressure.
EARL GRANVILLEcontended that the noble and learned Lord had somewhat exaggerated the inconvenience which might accrue to the public from erecting this building in Hyde Park. The site proposed for its erection was a narrow slip of grass, nearly opposite to the barracks at Knights-bridge, which was now almost unfrequented. Gentlemen had the privilege of riding there, but it was only during a few days in the year. Some speeches in support of this exhibition had been made last night, which the noble and learned Lord had treated with contempt, but which, in his opinion, were worthy of any place, or of any assembly. He could not but notice

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some inconsistency between the present proceedings of the noble and learned Lord, and his proceedings at a public meeting at Westminster, where the noble and learned Lord had eulogised this exhibition as one "well calculated to excite our industry and whet our inventive faculties, and increase our skill by competition with other nations; and, above all, to increase mutual good understanding and friendly feeling among all nations—an object which every lover of his country and of his kind ought to promote." He had likewise told that meeting that he had interrupted his judicial labours in the House of Lords to be present at their proceedings, and expressed a hope that they would allow him to retire at once to resume them, "without considering his departure as inconsistent with that feeling of warm interest with which he regarded this proposed exhibition." The noble and learned Lord had likewise told that meeting that he considered it such an auspicious event that he had broken through a rule which he had observed for twenty years preceding, namely, never to accept an invitation to attend a public meeting. The noble and learned Lord then considered this exhibition as a national object, and he supposed that the noble and learned Lord considered it so still, or why was it so important that the noble and learned Lord would defray the expense of it out of the taxes? Now, the speech of the noble and learned Lord, the other night, did not appear to be made for the purpose of furthering the success of the exhibition; on the contrary, it appeared to be an appeal to the worst prejudices of the manufacturing and trading classes, made for the purpose of exciting them against it. He might be deceived in that notion, but such, at any rate, appeared to him to be the tendency of the noble and learned Lord's observations.
LORD BROUGHAMdefended the consistency of his past and present conduct. He still believed that the exhibition would do great good. The manufacturers would gain by the exhibition of foreign ingenuity, which would enable them to strike out new lights, and add fresh improvements to their former inventions. Their gain, however, would only be gain in the long run; presently their profits would be diminished, as prices would be reduced, but ultimately they might be benefited by the result. He had been repeatedly thanked by the shopkeepers and tradesmen of the metropolis for the warning he had given them as to
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the effects which they might expect from foreign competition. The noble Earl appeared to suspect that his objects were of a personal nature, arising from pressure from without. Now, that pressure was one of his greatest gratifications, for it showed that he had obtained, and still possessed, the confidence of his fellow-countrymen. He had already said, that he would not himself subscribe to the funds out of which the expenses of this exhibition was to be defrayed, for he did not consider it to be a fit subject for voluntary subscriptions. It was invidious, in men of their Lordships' rank in life, to subscribe towards that which would be immediately beneficial to themselves, and which must for a time be prejudicial to all manufacturers and shopkeepers.
LORD OVERSTONEsaid, it was a remarkable circumstance that there was not a class in the country which had not put forward some of its most prominent members to aid in carrying out this exhibition in a manner worthy of the high auspices under which it originated, and of the benevolent and sagacious Prince who had first suggested it. When he looked at the public expressions of approval emanating from the most distinguished men both of this and of the other House of Parliament, from the heads of the municipal bodies of the empire, and from the great body of our countrymen in all ranks and in all stations, he saw incontestable proofs that the great mass of the British community was determined to give its cordial co-operation to this exhibition; and, as the events of yesterday had been alluded to, he might be permitted to observe that it was an example unparalleled in the city of London. It would form a remarkable epoch in its history, for on no former occasion had any public banquet in the city of London been attended by so peculiar an assemblage of persons of high distinction in their various stations and pursuits. The venerable head of our Church was present, not less distinguished for his high rank than for his sound learning and sincere piety. There were present some of the first statesmen of every shade of political party—there were present some of our most eminent merchants, there were present also the living representatives of British industry from every town and corporation in the country. These all assembled at that banquet to declare their deliberate conviction, speaking not only for themselves, but also for their constituents, friends, and

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fellow-labourers, that this undertaking orinated in patriotic motives, and was dictated by really enlightened wisdom. It would be productive of results honourable to the country, beneficial to all its interests, and more especially beneficial to the interests of those working classes with whom the noble and learned Lord opposite had hitherto identified himself in a most honourable manner, and for whose interests he had expected that the noble and learned Lord would have been, on this occasion, a zealous advocate. With regard to the observations which had been made on the speech of the noble and learned Lord at the meeting at Westminster, he had only to say, that as a member of the Commission he had felt it his duty to attend that meeting, and it had, in consequence, surprised him exceedingly to hear the noble and learned Lord now denouncing, by every means in his power—and his means were very formidable—the proposal of carrying out this exhibition by the voluntary subscriptions of the public. The noble and learned Lord was singular in that opinion, for almost every deliberative community in the country, from the highest down to the very lowest, had declared itself in favour of supporting this exhibition by means of private contributions. It had, he repeated, surprised him exceedingly to find that the noble and learned Lord, after having attended the meeting in Westminster, which was called to originate a public subscription, and after having proposed one of the resolutions, and after having expressed so earnestly his concurrence with its object, and after having apologised for coming so late, and retiring so early, and after having declared that he had suspended his judicial labours in the House of Lords, to enable him to take a part in their proceedings, and after having expressed his earnest hope that his early retirement from the meeting would not be construed as indicating any lukewarmness or want of sympathy in the objects of the meeting—it had indeed surprised him exceedingly that the noble and learned Lord should have turned round so suddenly to denounce the voluntary subscriptions which were required for the support of the exhibition. Under such circumstances, he thought that the epithet of "somewhat volatile," which had been attached last night to the noble and learned Lord's name was not altogether unreasonable. It was easy to throw out objections, and to find fault, the reply to which would involve much tedious explanation, but their Lordships
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had already had a sufficient warning not to yield lightly to the hasty propositions of the noble and learned Lord, who had that very evening confessed that on a former occasion he had thrown out a very ill-considered suggestion respecting the practicability of making the Victoria Park available for this exhibition, and who now proposed to transfer it to the Regent's Park. The first proposition of the noble and learned Lord was, that the building, which he said would interfere injuriously with the lungs of this great metropolis, should be transferred from Hyde Park to Victoria Park, that was, from a site in a park more peculiarly devoted to the recreation of the higher classes of society, to a site in a park given almost exclusively to the lower. The Commission had not proceeded hastily or without deliberation on these points. It was deeply impressed by a sense of the responsibility which rested upon it. It had received suggestions from scientific men of the most eminent reputation, and it had selected the present site in conformity with their almost unanimous decision. It had determined to carry out this exhibition in such a manner as would render it a memorial worthy of the age in which we lived, and as a lasting proof of the sympathy of the rich in the interests of the poor, and more particularly of the sympathy felt in their welfare by one who now stood nearest to the Throne, and who day by day was drawing more closely the ties which would bind him to the hearts and affections of his adopted country. The question as to the site in Hyde Park had been referred in the first instance to a building committee, which had reported to the commission favourably regarding it. The objection to fixing the site in Regent's Park was, that that park was not level ground, but of an undulating character; that it was wet and damp, and must be drained before it could be used for building purposes; and that it was, moreover, the favourite resort of the middle and working classes for air and recreation, whilst the site selected in Hyde Park was almost exclusively the resort of the wealthier. The site which the Commissioners had chosen was a space free from the resort of the lower classes, and though it was sometimes occupied by the wealthier, it was only just that they should surrender their advantages for the benefit of the poor, and not that the poor should surrender theirs for the benefit of the rich. It would be an appropriate and gracious concession on the part

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of the upper classes. This very day the Commissioners had sat in deliberation on the subject. The several mayors of the different muncipal towns in the three kingdoms had attended to share in their councils; and they had endeavoured to impress on the Commissioners the propriety of a temporary surrender by the richer classes of society of the conveniences which they derived during a few months of the year from the use of that part of Hyde Park. The site in Hyde Park was also a site which could be most easily restored to its original condition. The noble and learned Lord on a former evening had expressed a fear that the building would be a permanent structure. He could assure the noble and learned Lord that there was no intention of erecting a structure of that character. On the contrary, the building erected would be of a nature to be removed with the greatest case, and would not form a lasting incumbrance on the park. Everything that had occurred since this exhibition had been in contemplation justified him in thinking that it would be carried out in such a manner as would be in conformity with the wishes of our most gracious Sovereign, and realise the intentions of the illustrious Prince, whose proud office it was to promote the progress of industry and to sympathise with the wants and wishes of the working classes. The undertaking had still difficulties to contend with; but he trusted that with steady perseverance it would triumph over them all—that it would carry its designs into effect so as to do honour to British industry and to show British sympathy for the industry of other nations—and that it would consolidate and strengthen now and for ever all those amicable relations between the various countries of the world which arise from the mutual interchange of their respective productions, and which must tend to bind nations together in lasting peace and unity.
LORD STANLEY: It is quite unnecessary, my Lords, for me to say a word either as to the objects of the Royal Commission, or as to the site of the exhibition, under any circumstances, after the able and excellent speech just delivered by the noble Lord who has just addressed you for the first time. I hope, however, that I may be excused by your Lordships and by my noble and learned and very grave and discreet Friend, if I say that he has greatly exaggerated the importance of the expression used by me at a festive meeting last
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night, when I characterised him by an epithet which, I am sorry to find, has occasioned him some disquietude. Last night, in combating an erroneous impression sought to be inculcated into the minds of the tradesmen and shopkeepers of London, that their pecuniary interests would suffer by the introduction of goods not for sale but for exhibition in the year 1851, I certainly did regret that that impression had received encouragement and support from my noble, learned and "somewhat volatile" Friend. I did use those expressions because I certainly saw some sudden inconsistency and change of opinions and views on the part of my noble and learned Friend in the language which he used at the Westminster meeting, and in that which he addressed to you the other night in his place in Parliament. I really thought that my noble and learned Friend would have taken my expression as a compliment, falling, indeed, below the amount of praise which is due to him, and very unequal to the merits of the individual to whom I applied it. On the point of acute-ness, activity, rapidity, and pungency, sal volatile is nothing when compared with my noble and learned Friend. You may put a stopper of glass or leather on a bottle of sal volatile, or any other ethereal essence; but I defy any human power, even that of my noble and learned Friend himself, to put any stopper, either of glass, or leather, or any other material, over the activity, ingenuity, and pungency of his mind, I will do him the justice to say that I believe that his activity and energy of mind, and that his wit and readiness of humour, are as active and as pungent as any volatile essence; but that they are either offensive or acrimonious is that which no man in his senses will ever assert, and which I shall at all times be prepared to deny. I hope that the long friendship which has existed between us will not be disturbed for a single moment by the expression I used. [Lord BROUGHAM: Hear!] For, henceforward, I shall form a more correct estimate of his character. I shall look on him, hereafter, not as one of those great, rapid, and energetic men, who can make any question important, and who are capable of dealing and taking a part in any and every question, even though they come one after another with such velocity as to seem not continuous questions but only one question; but I shall look on him as a man of a grave, serious, plodding, and rather slow and heavy nature, not hasty in taking

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up a subject, nor in laying it down, nor in expressing his opinions upon it—never expressing an opinion on any point which he has not well weighed previously—not taking up many subjects at once, but taking up all separately, and making himself fully and entirely master of one before he adventures on another—content with one at a time, and never hazarding a judgment upon every subject without hearing and without examination, and discreet enough never to speak on any Motion, unless he has previously considered it in every light and in every bearing. And even if my noble and learned Friend should hereafter say anything calculated to disabuse me of that opinion, I shall attribute it to my own want of judgment, and that what appears to be inconsistent with that opinion is not really inconsistent with it. But my noble and learned Friend must forgive me for saying that when he means to speak seriously he should take care that no doubt can exist as to his intentions. If my noble and learned Friend will put himself under my tuition—and, considering the constancy with which he favours us with his company on this side of the House, I may perhaps venture to give him one hint—it is that when my noble and learned Friend favours us with his sincere opinions, he should not give them so much an air of irony, and that when he wants to promote an object like the exhibition of 1851, he should not throw out a sarcasm that is calculated to deter people from supporting it. Because, while he tells the tradesmen of this metropolis that the object which this exhibition is intended to promote is really for their benefit, he couches his ideas in such expressions that a really contrary impression is created, and it is supposed that my noble and learned Friend is really of opinion that they are great fools if they suffer themselves to be deluded by it, and that they are going to do that which is really injurious to their interests. If my noble and learned Friend will adopt my advice in future, and separate that which is serious from that which is ironical, he will avoid such misconceptions as have prevailed upon the present occasion. If his real desire was, as he says, to promote the objects of this great exhibition, I very much regret that my noble and learned Friend did not last night avail himself of the opportunity which was afforded him of accepting the invitation of the Lord Mayor, when we might have thanked him for the effective aid with which he has, it appears, endeavoured to
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promote its ultimate success by the speech he delivered the other night in this House.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid: After a noble Lord in this House and a Royal Commissioner have made my speech the subject of remark, the courtesy of either House of Parliament would allow me the privilege of explaining. My noble Friend has given me his advice, on the use of the figure of irony. Now, I hope my noble Friend will permit me in return to give him a piece of advice, which I do with the greatest earnestness and sincerity of purpose, and with the kindest and most benevolent feeling to him which I can possibly entertain, when I say to him, not always when you are present and hear an argument which you think inconclusive—always when you are present and hear an opinion which you think erroneous—ever when you are present at a debate where an individual openly, above board, and frankly comes forward, and in the presence of those who are supposed to hold different opinions, delivers his sentiments, states his feelings, propounds his reasons, and supports his opinions—ever (and this is an inflexible rule), if you differ with him, if you disapprove the course he is taking, if you despise his authority, if you charge him with inconsistency, if you feel that he is not saying here what he has said elsewhere, at another time or place—then ever and always at once come forward, attack him, defend yourself, and do not wait until the day after, and then, having been silent when he spoke, and having failed to get up, to put him on his defence, to give him an opportunity of explaining himself if he has been obscure—of reconciling himself if he has been inconsistent—of defending himself if what he has said is defensible—instead of that, do not take the opportunity, three miles off, and the day after, and before other people, and when he is not there, to set people laughing at him. My noble Friend may say that no harm was done, and I agree with him; but I must take the liberty of saying, that there is nothing so easy as to raise a laugh against an absent man, nothing so safe as joking about him when he is not there, nothing so secure as to set people laughing at his expense when he is somewhere else. It is the safest kind of joking, and the easiest. Why does not my noble Friend think that I could have raised the laugh against him if I had said of him last night, "He's tumbling at the Mansion House, for the amusement of 160 mayors of the provincial towns?" It

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would, I admit, have been the dullest possible joke—almost, not quite, as dull as my noble Friend's own joke last night—but still there was no denying it that, dull and stupid as the joke would have been, it would have been successful in exciting a laugh; and that the reporters would have written after it, "A laugh," or "Laughter," I have no doubt whatever. I must say that the noble Lord (Lord Overstone), who has addressed the House to-night for the first time, has delivered himself in a manner creditable to himself. He has shown himself capable of giving us that information which few men possess in a greater extent, and he has also shown himself capable of supporting any side of any question. But the noble Lord will forgive me for saying that when one person attacks another, he ought to take great care as to his accuracy, and still greater care that he does not persist in attributing to that person views which he has disclaimed—views which he has categorically and most significantly and perfectly intelligibly disavowed. The rule is—and the noble Lord, as an experienced Member of this or the other House, will pardon me for apprising him of it—not to impute anything to a person that he denies to have said. And this is a rule of common sense, of courtesy, of common fairness, and of candour, never to impute anything to any man after he has disclaimed it. When the explanation was given to me by my noble Friend (the Earl of Carlisle), I was convinced that I was wrong in one point, and I retracted what I had said about the Victoria Park; and, having done so, it is not right in any noble Lord to come down afterwards and then charge me with having rashly made a suggestion about the Victoria Park. When my noble Friend told me the extent of the Victoria Park and the inconvenience of holding the exhibition there, I at once gave it up. Then as to the Westminster meeting, the resolution I there proposed was, that the presence of scientific men, makers of machinery, artists, and others, who might attend the exhibition from other countries, would greatly benefit us, and that they, again, would benefit by the interchange of ideas on that occasion. Since then a new light has been shed upon the subject, which has made me think that a subscription is not the proper course, but that a public contribution, and not private subscriptions, ought to be the mode of raising the funds for this exhibition. Since that Westminster meeting I have received many communications,
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and since I addressed your Lordships the other night, I have received a great many more from tradesmen and professional persons, complaining of the injurious effect of the canvass for subscriptions, and these have changed my views, and have made me unfavourable to private subscriptions for accomplishing the object in view. I cannot vie with the noble Lord (Lord Overstone) in his glowing panegyric on all the parties concerned, from the most rev. Prelate to the illustrious Consort of Her Majesty—I cannot pretend to vie with him in the gorgeous eloquence of his boundless panegyric on all sects of persons, touching all manner of things. He is a grand, a mighty, eulogist—a wholesale dealer in praise. I content myself with giving my simple adhesion, and, it is sufficient for me, in my plain way, to say—not vieing with him, as I have said—to state that no one can have a higher respect than I bear towards that illustrious Prince, of which I have given proof on many occasions to the utmost extent of my limited means. And that respect and esteem have been, I will say, greatly increased by the more recent conduct of the Prince—I mean with respect to the interest he has taken in the condition of the working classes at those meetings which he has attended, so that it is difficult to know which most to admire, the sound judgment or the benevolent feelings of the Prince. I have always admired his prudence in a position of a delicate and difficult nature; and I have of late seen cause to admire his feelings on matters of a still higher kind.
Subject dropped.

PAROCHIAL EDUCATION.
The DUKE of ARGYLLsaid*: My Lords, I can sincerely say that it has not been without some hesitation that I have determined thus early to call the attention of the House to the important subject of education in Scotland. That hesitation, however, has had reference to one circumstance alone. I allude to the fact that notice has been given by a noble Lord in another place of his intention to introduce a Bill upon the subject. I am anxious, therefore, at once to explain that, except in so far as some general principles are concerned, to which I shall feel it my duty to refer, it is very far from my intention to anticipate even my own opinion—far less the opinion of this House—in respect to any measure which may come before us.

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The subject of national education is, in Scotland as well as elsewhere, beset with many difficulties. But there is one circumstance peculiar to that country, with reference to which the whole of those difficulties must be viewed, and according to the view we take of which they may be either diminished or increased. The circumstance I allude to is this—that in Scotland there is, and has long been, a system of education, national in its origin and object, and, to a great extent at least, national in its character and effect. A party has been formed in Scotland, composed of somewhat heterogeneous materials, who appear to think that the first step to be taken is to upset this system altogether, and to substitute some other in its stead. What that other system is to be has not been so distinctly stated; and I suspect that the suffrages which are united in pulling down, would be by no means equally united in building up. Now, my Lords, the petitions which I have the honour to lay on the table of the House do not pray that your Lordships will take no steps to extend education in Scotland—they do not pray that you will take no steps to improve the education already existing. They pray only that this House will agree to no measure involving any radical or fundamental change in the constitution of those schools which by law are placed in connexion with the Established Church; and to this point it is my intention strictly to confine the observations I shall have the honour of addressing to the House.
My Lords, the parochial system of Scotland, considered merely as an institution of the law, is of no very ancient date; although a date with which we connect not a few of the institutions which we value most—I mean the period immediately succeeding the Revolution. But to understand the real character of this system, we must go much further back. It was at the first establishment of the Reformation in Scotland that the parochial system was first planned, and submitted by the Reformers for the adoption of the State; and, although it was not then adopted by Parliament, but was left to the unaided exertions and authority of the Church, yet to a large extent it was carried by these into practical effect; and the subsequent statutes enforcing this system can only be considered as giving the sanction of law to a system which had been first conceived and already carried into effect by the Church itself. I shall not detain the House
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by dwelling on the advantages which this system has conferred on Scotland. Your Lordships have all at least a general impression that hitherto, at least, that country has been somewhat before others in the moral and intellectual cultivation of its people; and you have all a further impression that this result has not been unconnected with the parochial schools. But I am perfectly willing to allow that this system must now be considered mainly with reference to two great changes of circumstances—the increase of population and the progress of dissent.
Your Lordships are of course aware that at various periods in the history of the Church of Scotland, sections have split off from her communion and formed independent bodies. I do not stop to inquire what the causes of these divisions have been; but I am anxious to direct your attention to one peculiarity which belongs to them. The differences between the Established Church and those bodies which have separated most widely from her, are not only less, but are as nothing to the differences which exist between the members of the same body, included in the wide embrace of the Church of England. Not only do these differences not refer to matters of doctrine, but not even, for the most part, to matters of discipline. They have reference chiefly to the lawfulness of the connexion, and the degree of connexion lawful between Church and State. Now, my Lords, mark the consequences of this fact on the question of education. When the Dissenters of Scotland send their children to the parochial schools, they find there precisely the same religious teaching—the same Catechisms and forms of faith which they themselves approve of, and on which in their own schools they would conduct the religious education of their children. The consequence has been, that the children of all sects have freely attended the parish schools, and I have evidence before me (with which I shall not trouble the House, though it is evidence taken before a Committee of this House) showing that on all hands it has been freely acknowledged that Dissenters find in the parish schools no other teaching than that of which they themselves approve; and that no attempt has ever been made, as indeed none such is possible, to influence the minds of their children on those more abstruse and difficult points on which alone they (for the most part) differ from the Established Church. But I should omit a circumstance materially

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illustrative of the large and liberal spirit in which those schools have been conducted, were I not to mention the cases in which the Church has been called upon to deal with the children of a very different communion. Your Lordships are, of course, aware that there are several districts in Scotland, chiefly in the Highlands and Islands, in which a large Roman Catholic element exists; and in these districts the General Assembly laid down a rule with reference to their own schools, which are still more entirely than the parish schools under the control of the Established Church, that the children of the Roman Catholics were to be freely admitted to the benefit of the general education given in the schools, without insisting on their receiving any religious instruction to which their parents or priests might object.
Such being the position of the parochial schools with reference to Protestant dissent, and such being the large and liberal spirit in which the system is conducted with reference to those even who differ most wisely from the Established Church, I needly hardly explain to the House that the agitation which has been raised of late for the overthrow of the parochial system, is one which is founded in the main—I do not wish to use any irritating or offensive expression—on those feelings which all Dissenters bear to all Established Churches, especially to those which they have lately left, and from which they differ least. Of course, however, such are not the grounds on which the movement must ostensibly rest: other grounds have undoubtedly been put forward. One argument I have heard used is this—being in fact the same argument which has been always used against Established Churches—that what is supported by all should be open to all. I have but one objection to make to this argument; at least one only with which I shall now trouble the House—that it involves two misstatements of fact. First, it is not true that the parochial schools are supported by all—they are supported by endowments raised exclusively from the proprietors of land; and, secondly, they are already open to all. I do not, indeed, contend, that the endowment either of Established Churches or of established schools are independent of the Houses of Parliament; but I never can allow that they stand precisely on the same footing as the grants made out of the public Treasury under the ordinary votes of the Legislature.
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Well, but, my Lords, I have heard another argument put forward. The party of purely secular educationists, or those who wish to separate entirely religious from secular education, are, I believe, a very small party in Scotland. But an intermediate ground has been taken by those who seek only to overthrow the connexion between the parochial schools and the Established Church; and it is characteristic of the tendencies of the Scotch people that this ground has taken the form of a dogmatic affirmation, as if, on a point of abstract principle, that there is no legitimate connexion between Church and School—that the "schoolmaster (for so it has been expressed) has no locus standi on the Word of God." I shall certainly not detain the House by any argument on this point. I am glad, however, of this opportunity of declaring my distinct conviction, that of all the duties incumbent on the Church of Christ, in all the branches into which it may be divided, one of the first and most sacred of all is that of seeing to the religious instruction of the young. And, my Lords, I never can admit that the rights of parents are incompatible with this duty on the part of Churches. The one has been ingeniously pitted against the other in a recent manifesto put forth in Scotland. A strong assertion of the rights of parents is made to cover the attack on the connexion between Church and School. My Lords, no one would be more determined than I would be to uphold the most absolute liberty of conscience on the part of all, and, as involved in this, the undoubted rights of parents in respect to the religious instruction of their children. And if I am asked how I would reconcile the rights of parents with the duties of Churches, I should point to the parochial schools of Scotland, as I have already explained their operation to the House. Under that system, religious instruction, according to certain known and definite forms, is made a part of the education offered; and the onus of objecting to that instruction is thrown upon the parent. His objection, if stated, is respected—as it ought to be. But your Lordships will observe the enormous difference between giving no religious instruction except such as parents may demand, and forbearing to give any religious instruction to which the parents may take it on themselves to object. In the latter case you have some security—not merely that the objection is bonâ fide a conscien-

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tious one—but also that religious instruction, though withheld in the form in which it is offered, will really be given in some other form consistent with the parent's faith. But only imagine, my Lords, how the other system would work in those districts where education is most required. Take the manufacturing, mining, or other destitute districts of Scotland, where the parents, neglected themselves, are of course neglecting the religious education of their children. Would it be right to give to those children no other religious instruction than that which their parents might supply? Can you, consistently with your duty, under such circumstances, leave the work of communicating religious instruction exclusively to parents?
But, supposing that Parliament were to overthrow the parochial system of Scotland in its distinctive features, on the ground that schools ought not be connected with Churches, the object in view would not be effected. You would have interfered with this connexion in a case where you know it is characterised by no intolerance of spirit, but conducted in a spirit of the greatest liberality, and you would leave untouched the same connexion in respect to all the Dissenting Church-schools: where at least you have no similar security against a proselytising and sectarian spirit. And be it observed that the demand against the schools in connexion with the Established Church is urged by men who have set up schools in jealous connexion with their own ecclesiastical body, and the constitution of which you have publicly authorised and sanctioned. I hold in my hand the model deed of the Free Church Schools, to which the noble Marquess opposite (Lansdowne) has given his assent, as President of the Council. Under this deed, the constitution of the schools is, as I have said, jealously ecclesiastical—the masters are dismissable at the absolute will and pleasure of the Free Church ecclesiastical courts, and the most stringent provisions are introduced to maintain a close and perpetual connexion between that ecclesiastical body and its schools. I am bound to inform the House, that, though thus strictly ecclesiastical in organisation and control, those schools are represented by the Free Church as being entirely unsectarian in spirit, and open to the children of all. But supposing this to be universally true, those schools can but aspire to the character in this respect which you know
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to belong to the parochial schools in connexion with the Established Church.
I come now to the last argument against the parochial schools with which I shall trouble the House upon this occasion. It is said that they are inadequate to the extent of population. My Lords, I at once admit the fact of inadequacy. But what do I hear urged in the next breath by certain of the agitators against the parish schools? That the Established Church is engrossing the whole education of the country—and that two-thirds of the people cannot consent to be educated by the Church of one-third? My Lords, passing by the question of amount, these two arguments cannot stand together. The facts on which the first is founded I admit; the second is a mere expression of party feeling. It is perfectly true that the parochial schools are inadequate. But what does this prove? Not that schools already existing, and so far as they go working well, must have their constitution overthrown; but that there is room enough on unoccupied fields on which any new system may well be tried. You know, my Lords, the difficulties which stand in the way of any national system being devised which shall satisfy the feelings of the country by combining religious and secular education, and satisfy also sectarian jealousies by the absence of any particular ecclesiastical connexion. You know, my Lords, that in England it has been as yet found impossible to frame any national system of education, except by aiding the exertions of individual Churches. I am far from denying that that peculiar circumstance in the character of Scotch dissent to which I have before referred—the substantial agreement of a great majority of the people in all matters of doctrinal faith—I am far from denying that this circumstance does hold out a hope that such a system might more easily be applied in Scotland than elsewhere. But you know that it would be an experiment made on most difficult ground. And none know this better than some who are now leading the attack on the parish schools. One of the Free Church leaders in the agitation, when referring to the objection that the same argument which would disunite Church and School, as regarded the Establishment, would go to disunite them also as regarded the Free Church, at once declared that it formed no part of his intention to abandon their own scheme until they should see how any new system might work. I advise your

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Lordships to adopt a similar prudential course. It may be very natural for the Dissenting Churches to desire this experiment should be tried first on the schools which belong by their constitution to the Established Church. But it will be equally natural, I think, for those who are not impelled by the same feelings to make this old institution of the country the last rather than the first object on which experiments should be tried. For my own part, I can sincerely say that I have no feeling which would prevent me from co-operating with the Free and other Dissenting Churches in extending the means of education over the wide fields which lie unoccupied. The British and Foreign School Society, formed upon the basis of uniting different Churches (within a certain limit) in the cause of education, has, I believe, had the most beneficial effect in England. Scotland offers a most favourable field for such an organisation. But whether on this or any other plan, it may be found possible to unite all parties in the cause of education, I do feel much disposed to agree with the prayer of these petitions that your Lordships will be very careful how you make any radical or fundamental change in the constitution of the parochial schools: and the more inadequate they are in point of numbers to the wants of the population, the more evident is is that, even if less liberally conducted than they are, the Established Church possesses in them no inordinate influence over the education of the country; and the more evident also is it that our first efforts ought to be directed to the vast fields which He unoccupied, rather than to effecting radical change in an institution of such a character as the Parochial Schools. I cannot despair, my Lords, of uniting, at least in some degree, the various Churches in Scotland in more legitimate endeavours when I look at such publications as that which I now hold in my hand—a pamphlet by an able and excellent minister of the Free Church, Dr. Buchanan of Glasgow. When I find such men pointing to such facts as this—that 187,000 l. a year are spent in Glasgow on pauperism and the detection and punishment of crime, as against 35,000 l. a year spent on all the churches and schools put together—when, I say, I find such men directing their attention to such facts, and calling on the various churches to unite in meeting social evils of such enormous magnitude, I cannot despair of the call being responded to, and some effort of a national
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character being made in the cause of education.
My Lords, it has not been ray object to enter into any details, but merely to put the House in possession of some of the main bearings of the question of National Education in Scotland. I have avoided many points of importance on which I shall be prepared to speak when a fitter opportunity occurs.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEthanked the noble Duke for his able and lucid statement. He had himself had occasion to be officially in communication with the representatives of the Scottish parochial schools, and to have heard much of them. And although he was far from saying that they were in a perfect state, or sufficiently developed to meet the wants of the country, still he should much regret seeing any system of education attempted or adopted in Scotland the basis of which should not be founded on the principles of the parochial schools—schools which had been the means of founding in Scotland that great national pre-eminence in education which, for a long time, that country had held in the eyes of the world. Entertaining these views, however, he still could not but regret that many individuals connected with these schools did not seem prepared to lend their influence and exertions towards such an opening of the parochial schools as might enable them to fulfil, in a larger degree than they at present could, the great mission with which they were charged—the education of the people. While he thus wished to see the parochial schools maintained intact, as regarded their principle, he was far from saying that other institutions might not, at the same time, be made to co-operate with the parochial system, and he had seen with admiration the efforts made by the Independent Church in Scotland, on the principle of that aggressive system, as it was called, by means of which it was sought to carry education into the homes of the ignorant and poor. He could not sit down without stating to their Lordships that both the Free and the Established Church in Scotland had met the efforts of the Committee of Privy Council in that spirit of harmony, confidence, and toleration which had made those efforts more successful than they would otherwise have been, and that there existed a cordial and practical co-operation on educational subjects between both Churches and Her Majesty's Government.
LORD BROUGHAMthought that, after

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the most lucid, useful, and very succinct speech delivered by the noble Duke, it was important that their Lordships should not interfere, in the slightest degree, with education in Scotland, except in the way of encouragement. They might, without meaning it, in the steps they took for extending the parish school system, do some detriment to what ought to be preserved intact, and, therefore, cautious legislation was desirable. He was sorry to say that the torch of education, which had been first lighted in Scotland, no longer yielded the same light as it had done formerly, and that Switzerland greatly exceeded Scotland, and the best parts of Scotland too, in her educational efforts.
The petition was then laid on the table.

THE CASE OF THE EMIGRANT SHIP "SABRAON."
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLrose to move—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, for a Copy of the Minutes of Proceedings affecting the Character and Conduct of the Surgeon, Superintendent, Master, and Officers of the Emigrant Ship Sabraon, referred to in despatches No. 116 and No. 242, from Governor C. A. Fitzroy to Earl Grey, last year."
He said, that his reason for endeavouring to have those Minutes of Proceedings presented to the House was, that he found that although they were alluded to in the despatches, they had never yet been printed, and, for the sake of all the parties concerned, he thought it better that they should be. Several letters upon the subject had appeared in the public papers. One from the captain of the Sabraon, and another from the mate—two parties who were accused of being participators in the serious atrocities committed on board that vessel. Both of them endeavoured to exculpate themselves. It was not for him either to condemn or advocate their cause; but he thought it was highly necessary that the subject should be properly inquired into and candidly stated to the public; the more so, because the captain complained that he was not allowed to bring forward his witnesses upon the investigation that took place in the colony, and that none of the witnesses were sworn on that occasion. Now, the charges made were very serious. The grossest debaucheries were said to have occurred openly on board the vessel, and the death of one of the females said to have been debauched had taken place. Surely, under such circumstances, the authorities
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were bound to have examined the witnesses on oath. There were charges of not having supplied the emigrants with sufficient food, and that spirits were sold on board and given to the females; offences punishable under the Passengers' Act. And it was, besides, alleged that occurrences had taken place on board that were too horrible to be related. The females debauched during the voyage consisted chiefly of orphan girls from Ireland, twelve of whom were from Dublin from a foundling establishment there. The Government had promised that those girls should be carefully looked after; but how had that promise been kept? The surgeon, who was bound to protect them, had proposed shortly after the vessel sailed that the captain and the mates should engage some of them to wait upon them as servants, and the result was of course what might have been expected. One of those girls who waited upon the captain died before her arrival at the colony of miscarriage, as some alleged, brought on by medicine given to her to procure abortion; but as the captain alleged, of fever. At all events, the girl lost her life. She fell a victim. He begged to refer their Lordships to the papers relative to emigration printed by order of the House of Commons, on the 31st July, 1849, page 27, where they would find the charges against the captain and officers. Under the seventh charge it was alleged that the captain had failed to prevent unrestricted intercourse between the officers and sailors and the females on board; that he had taken one girl to wait upon himself, and that she had died from the effects of miscarriage before the arrival of the ship at her destination. Another girl was named who had been debauched during the voyage, and who was then an inmate of a notorious brothel in the colony; and another, who also had waited upon the captain, had been seen in a situation which left no doubt that she also was receiving the wages of prostitution. The charges against the third mate were found to have been fully proved, and it was recommended that the usual gratuities should be withheld from the captain and the other officers named. Now, he wanted to know had any inquiry taken place into the death of the unfortunate orphan girl? Had the vessel been homeward bound, there would have been a coroner's inquest held in this country. But here was a case which would never have been brought before their Lordships and the public, if he had not taken it

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up. [Earl GREY: Hear, hear!] To the present hour the Dublin poor-law guardians, he believed, did not know the name of the unfortunate party who fell a victim upon the voyage. He wished to let it be known to them and to her friends and connexions, if she had any, and that the publication of the facts might also serve as a safeguard for time to come to other poor unfortunate females who should not be suffered to run such a risk. For these reasons, he thought it was necessary that the returns should be granted, in order that others should not trust to the promises made by officials. He did not expect that any objection would be made by the noble Earl. The only objection he knew of that might be possibly offered was, that the returns would be too voluminous; but he could not admit that to be a valid objection in such a case. Upon a former occasion, he had mentioned, as stated in the official documents, that the surgeon-superintendent of one of the emigration vessels, the Equestrian," had not shown sufficient energy." That gentleman had called upon him and shown him the highest possible testimonials of ability and perfect fitness for the office of surgeon-superintendent. He (the Earl of Mountcashell) was very anxious to do perfect justice to every one, and therefore he took the earliest possible opportunity of stating the fact. Of course, he could not tell whether the gentleman was deficient in energy or not. He had merely stated what was the information which he had received from papers laid by the Government on the table of the House; and the surgeon had shown him the highest testimonials to the contrary, and had requested him to mention the fact. But he wished to do no man wrong; he was merely anxious to guard the emigrants. There was another explanation also which he was desirous to offer. He had stated upon the last occasion that the emigrants were badly supplied with water and provisions. That the water was bad, and that 1,800 tierces of salt American beef, and 2,000 barrels of pork of very inferior quality had been sold in Liverpool, there was every reason to suppose, for the use of Australian emigrant ships out of the port of London. These parties denied that the inferior provisions were shipped on board emigrant ships. He had mentioned no names; he never dreamed of hurting the feelings or interests of any one. He had received a visit from a member of the firm of Messrs. Powell and Sons, an eminent
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house in the City, who begged him to state that they were not to blame in the matter—that they had purchased 900 tierces of the beef alluded to, but not with the intention of putting it on board any emigrant vessel. They submitted to him a statement to show that they were obliged to keep meat of all descriptions, and varieties, and prices, to suit their various customers, and that they were chiefly foreign vessels that took the lower brands; that he might trust to their high character for the truth of their statements; that they were well known in the City, and that their word might be entirely relied upon. However, as he had said before, he merely mentioned the facts that he had received, and there was no doubt the inferior meat had been sold in Liverpool, as he had stated. Another matter also to which he should allude, in explanation, was this: He had that morning received a letter, signed "G. Sparkes, M.D., Finsbury-place," and dated the 22nd March instant, relative to the case of the Mary Anne, which had sailed for New Zealand in the year 1841, of which he had spoken upon the last occasion. Dr. Sparkes stated that, as Government Medical Inspector, he had been down at Gravesend on the preceding day, where he had met the officer of the Diana, Mr. Lamprell—who had written the letter to the Times, denying, on the part of Mr. Bell, who was formerly chief mate of the Mary Anne, the charges made by him (the Earl of Mountcashell)—and that Mr. Lamprell had informed him that it was the second mate, Mr. G,—, who had been guilty of the disgraceful conduct erroneously attributed to the first mate, and that he died some time after his elopement with the wife of a military man. He (the Earl of Mountcashell) would not mention the man's name in full, as he was dead; but he thought it right to state the information received from Dr. Sparkes, in order that Mr. Bell's character might not suffer under a wrong imputation. Another matter also he should allude to. When he mentioned the case of the four girls on board the Ramilies, who were flogged for misconduct—he had no doubt their conduct was very outrageous, one of them having struck the matron, but he denied that flogging was a fit or proper punishment for women—the noble Earl, replying, said that all they received was a few strokes across the neck. But he (the Earl of Mountcashell) would prove that it was a more serious punishment. He had a letter

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from one of the girls on board. She was not one of those flogged, but she witnessed the flogging, and she said, "Some of the girls were put in irons and flogged; their names were Phœbe Spooner, Margaret Mack, Catherine Morgan, and Jane Dowling." And if their Lordships would give him a Committee, he would prove the fact, that these girls were stripped to the waist, and flogged on their bare backs, and that the captain said they were not hit hard enough, and desired another person to take the rope and strike harder, the Burgeon standing by and holding their arms. The carpenter, by order of the captain, then made hatches into which they were put, and which were so contrived, that they could neither stand upright, sit, nor lie down in them; that the carpenter eventually, upon his own responsibility, took a board or two away, in order that they might be able to stand upright. The surgeon's conduct, too, was most reprehensible. If he had kept a journal, as it was his duty to do, it would then have been seen that there was as much bestiality and brutality on board that vessel as on board any other of which he had spoken. But he had still another proof for the noble Earl. Here, said the noble Lord [pulling out a piece of platted rope, the thickness of a man's little finger, about two feet and a half in length, from his pocket], is the identical rope with which the girls were flogged. It had been brought to him by a person who was on board, and who had seen it used upon them. He wished that the noble Earl would be more cautious in his assertions, and in his mode of replying, when he got up to answer him. Of course, there was more attention paid to what he said than was paid to what was said by one who was not in an official situation, and he, therefore, ought to make himself master of the subject, before asserting that all they received was a few strokes across the neck. He trusted that, at all events, the noble Earl would take such measures as would prevent their ever again hearing of such things being done on board emigrant ships. He (the Earl of Mountcashell) had brought forward several charges, but he could bring forward many more. The noble Earl, the other night, wished to make it appear that he (the Earl of Mountcashell) wanted to charge all medical men appointed to emigrant ships with incompetency. He begged to say he wanted to do no such thing. He knew many medical men who were very fit for
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the proper discharge of the duties; but many others were unfit. The noble Earl then threw out various suggestions as to the future management of convict ships, such as better remuneration to medical men, paying more regard to the enforcement of the penalties imposed under the Passengers' Act, taking greater precautions in the selection of surgeons, giving at all times the preference to married men; passing an Act for the more summary punishment of the crime of seducing women on board; and that of granting of medals to well-conducted female emigrants, to be taken from them on any occasion of subsequent misconduct during the passage, or afterwards. He begged, in conclusion, to state that if no remedy should be provided for the present state of things, he would take up the matter from Session to Session, and he never would be quiet till some remedy was provided for these abuses, which were a disgrace to a Christian land, and which he did not believe existed in any other country. He concluded by moving for the production of the minutes of evidence taken in the case of the emigrant ship Sabraon.
EARL GREYcomplained that the noble Earl had occupied an hour and a half of the attention of the House in making a series of charges which were most futile in their nature, and of which it might with perfect propriety be termed idle gossip, which had been collected from various quarters; and he should not occupy their Lordships' attention many minutes in assuring them that there was scarcely one of those statements which had a particle of foundation in fact. With regard to the noble Earl's Motion for the production of the minutes of the evidence respecting the conduct of the officers connected with the ship Sabraon, he begged to say that, believing as he did that no good purpose could possibly be served by the production of those minutes, he could not reconcile it with his sense of duty to accede to the noble Earl's application. The noble Earl had not made out his case in a satisfactory manner. He had omitted to explain the particular object that he had in view in making this application, nor had he mentioned any one beneficial result which could ensue from an acquiescence in it. The one case of abuse and misconduct which had unhappily taken place on board of the Sabraon was undoubtedly most lamentable and disgraceful. That it was fairly susceptible of such a designation, and that it

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reflected a great discredit on all who were concerned in it, was not for a moment to be questioned; but he begged leave to remind the noble Earl that the case had been made the subject of a minute and rigorous investigation a long time ago, and that it had been definitely disposed of. No sooner had the ship arrived at Sydney, than the whole affair was examined into with the most zealous care and the strictest minuteness. The evidence that was taken down on the occasion of that investigation was published in Sydney, where alone its publication could be attended with any beneficial consequences; and the result of the whole investigation was, that the charterers of the ship were mulcted in no less a sum than 500 l. Thus the case was summarily and definitively disposed of. The only result that would follow from the republication of the evidence now, at a very considerable expense to the country, would be that the evidence so republished would be as so much waste paper on their Lordships' table. Nobody would read the bulky volume except the noble Earl himself, and he (Earl Grey) had already informed him that a full copy lay at the Colonial Office, which the noble Earl might read whenever he pleased. He was sure that if there were more of their Lordships present, they would concur with him in the opinion that if, under these circumstances, he were to consent to saddle the public with the expense of reprinting the evidence, he should be pursuing a course which was anything but consistent with his duty. He did not think it at all necessary to follow the noble Lord through his lengthened statement, nor to allude to those assertions of his, which were but repetitions of what he had stated on former occasions. He might be permitted, however, to make one or two observations to show that the noble Earl, actuated no doubt by the purest motives, had nevertheless been misled by others into making statements which were not at all justified by the facts of the case. The whole tone and tenor of the evidence that had been laid before their Lordships on the subject of emigration, went to show that those who were connected with the conduct of emigration had for the most part discharged their duty in a most exemplary manner. The report of the emigration agents in New South Wales went most distinctly to show that the emigrants last year had been most judiciously selected; that they had arrived at their destination in good health and in good
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spirits; that they had been, generally speaking, very well treated during the voyage; and that no serious case of abuse or misconduct had come under their notice, except that one on board the Sabraon, which all concurred in condemning and deploring. In attestation of the truth of these statements, he might refer to an article which had been recently published in the columns of the Sydney Morning Herald—the leading paper in the colony, and a journal which had been always distinguished for the very unreasonable severity with which it animadverted upon the proceedings of the emigration commissioners and agents. [The noble Earl read an extract from the paper in question, which was in effect that the last report of Mr. Merewether had produced upon the writer's mind the conviction that, as regarded the judicious selection of emigrants, the treatment they received on the passage, and the means adopted to insure them a fair start upon their arrival in the colony, the emigration of last year had been conducted in a manner greatly superior to that in which any emigration to those shores in former years had been arranged. The writer also observed that it would be an injustice to deny that the report evidenced the great ability and diligence of the emigration agents, and proved, as did also the facts that had come to his own knowledge, that the whole business of that officer's department was conducted with admirable order and good sense.] Such was the testimony of men who lived on the spot, and who spoke, not from hearsay or vague report, but according to the impressions produced upon their minds by what they personally witnessed. The noble Earl boasted of having done considerable good by the part he had taken on this question, but he (Earl Grey), though he was willing to give the noble Earl the fullest credit for meritorious motives, was inclined to believe that, so far from doing good, he had effected a great deal of harm. By the too easy credulity with which he allowed himself to be misled by the erroneous representations which had reached him from disingenuous and interested parties, he had inflicted a grievous injustice on many deserving persons. On the faith of an anonymous statement which had appeared in an obscure paper (the Australian News), respecting the conduct of the captain of the ship, John Mann, he had made charges against that officer which were in the highest degree prejudicial to his character, and which he (Earl Grey)

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believed to be totally devoid of truth. He had seen a letter addressed to Captain Pierson by seventy-nine of his passengers, on the arrival of the ship in port, and he certainly had never read a more gratifying testimonial to the skill, humanity, and general good conduct of that officer during the voyage. It was really a little too hard that such a testimonial of good conduct should be disregarded and set at nought because one of the passengers was so unmanly as to write an anonymous letter, impugning the manner in which Captain Pierson had discharged his duty. Amongst the passengers was a dissenting clergyman, of the most exemplary character, and several married persons of the highest respectability, and it was not likely that they would have signed so strong a recommendation in favour of a man who had been guilty of such immoralities as the noble Earl had been too credulously induced to believe were to be laid to the charge of Captain Pierson. The author of the anonymous letter reflecting on that gentleman was generally believed to be a certain schoolmaster, who, upon being charged with the fact, refused to give any information on the point, merely observing that he would neither admit nor deny having written the letter. With respect to the charges brought against the officers of another ship (the Ramilies), there could be no doubt that they were founded on the false statements of a female who had made herself remarkable during the entire voyage by the violence and impropriety of her conduct.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, the noble Earl was entirely misinformed—he made no statement upon any such authority.
EARL GREYobserved that, let the statement proceed from what quarter it might, the state of the ship when she got into port, and the condition of the passengers, were sufficient to show that it was totally destitute of truth. The infliction of corporal punishment on one of the female passengers, whose conduct had been uniformly outrageous, was, no doubt, an error of judgment on the part of the officers, and especially of the surgeon; but there was not a particle of evidence to show that, except in that particular instance, there had been the least misconduct on the part of any of the officers. He solemnly entreated of the noble Earl not to bring forward charges of so grave a character on such light grounds. If any
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charge, resting on a substantial foundation, could be fairly alleged against any person connected with emigration, and over whom it was possible for the Government to exercise any control, all that was necessary was, that it should be submitted to the consideration of the Emigration Commissioners. They would, as in duty bound, make it their business to inquire into it with the most jealous scrutiny, and, if it could be proved to their satisfaction that an abuse had actually taken place, they would take care that it should be visited with as severe a punishment as it might be in their power to inflict. But as for the charges made by the noble Earl, enough had been said to show that they were futile and undeserving of consideration.
The EARL of HARROWBYdid not mean to support the Motion of the noble Earl, nor did he go along with him in all his statements; but he believed that additional care in the conducting of emigration was necessary, as some of the officers had not conducted themselves well. It was impossible to overrate the importance of an efficient staff of emigration agents, and he trusted the noble Earl (Earl Grey) would spare no expense in securing proper persons to go out with the emigrants, which he believed could only be done by giving a somewhat higher emolument than was given at present. He thought that the emigrants, who might be described as a floating community brought together without previous acquaintance, and who were to remain together for several months, were entitled to every moral and social advantage that could be afforded them. There was great and general anxiety that female emigrants should be properly protected on their outward voyage, and it would be the worst economy to withhold any assistance on account of some trifling additional expense. He would entreat the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies not to dismiss this matter too lightly, as in every case of exaggeration there was generally to be found some truth.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLreplied. He said, that after the explanation of the noble Earl, he was ready to admit that he had confounded two cases, and he did not wish that Mr. Bell should remain one hour under the slur that he had unintentionally cast upon him. It should be remembered that doctors did not insert their own crimes in their journals, and that the records of their offences did

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not, therefore, reach the Colonial Office. He had brought forward a number of these cases; the facts were incontrovertible, and he would leave the public to judge between the inferences drawn from these facts by the noble Earl, and by himself He would particularly refer to the fact that no less than three of these vessels had been sent out with unfortunate Irish orphan girls, the majority of them under the age of nineteen, and that these poor girls had fallen victims to the brutality of the captains, surgeons, and officers of the vessels. He maintained that with such facts before him, it was the duty of the noble Earl, as the head of the Colonial Office, to make the fullest inquiry into the subject. He (Lord Mountcashell) had done his office; let the noble Earl do his.
EARL GREYrose and declared that it was not true that any case of abuse had been proved with respect to the female orphans, except in the instance of the Sabraon, and in that case the largest penalty that it was possible to inflict had been imposed, in the shape of a fine of 500 l. His only reason for declining to accede to the Motion was, that it would be quite useless to do so, the whole substance of the evidence applied for having been already published in a blue book which was lying on their Lordships' table. [The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL: Not the names.] With respect to the noble Earl's suggestion that the names of the women unfortunately seduced should be published to the whole world, he certainly was not prepared to consent to a proceeding so exceedingly cruel. It was, moreover, wholly without precedent. When twenty or thirty thousand persons emigrated to Australia in the course of a single year, it was inevitable but that some abuses and mischances should occasionally arise. It was inevitable but that, amongst such a multitudinous collection of persons, some bad characters should be found whose movements would be beyond the control of the surgeon, who, it should be remembered, was armed with no powers of coercion to repress them. Abuses, therefore, would of necessity arise; but nothing that it was possible to do would be left undone to render their occurrence as unusual and infrequent as possible. He cordially concurred with his noble Friend (the Earl of Harrowby) in thinking that no considerations of mistaken economy should deter the Government from using all possible precautions to prevent the maltreatment of the
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passengers. The greatest care was taken in the selection of surgeons, and the very judicious plan had been adopted of promising an increase of pay on the second voyage to surgeons whose conduct had given satisfaction on the first. The regulation would no doubt occasion additional expense, but that was not a paramount consideration when the object to be attained was so important.
On Question, resolved in the negative.
House adjourned till To-morrow.