Lords Sitting of 26 February 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILIS.—1a Foreign Chaplaincies.

WAGES IN WILTSHIRE.
THE EARL of MALMESBURYwished to obtain the ear of the noble President of the Council for a short time, whilst he called his attention to some unfortunate circumstances which had recently occurred in the village of West Lavington, in the county of Wilts. He did not know whether the noble Marquess was cognisant of the facts or not; but he inferred from the speech of the noble Marquess on the first day of the Session, that he was not well acquainted with the suffering state of the agricultural population of England, and particularly of the county of Wilts. The noble Lord then read an extract from a Wiltshire paper, stating that much excitement had recently prevailed among the agricultural labourers of West Lavington, in Wiltshire, in consequence of the intention of the farmers to reduce their wages from 7s. to 6s. a week; that a large num-
2
ber of them had gone to the steward of Mr.—, to remonstrate against the execution of that intention; that the police had been called in; that on the subsequent day a man had been brought up before the magistrates for creating a disturbance, and had been by them committed to prison; and that scarcely had he been taken there when a large body of labourers rose for the purpose of rescuing him, but found themselves disappointed in their object owing to his removal from that place to prison. His object in drawing attention to these facts was to show that Her Majesty's Ministers, though they might not be capable of deceiving their Lordships, were deceiving themselves, if they thought that the agricultural labourers were not worse off at present than they were at the passing of the recent legislative measures authorising unrestricted importation of corn and other articles. He entreated the noble Marquess and his Colleagues to keep their minds open on this subject.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEscarcely knew what question he had to answer, as the noble Earl had given him no notice of his intention to introduce this

3
subject. He would, however, inquire into the facts of the case mentioned by the noble Earl.

THE ENCUMBERED ESTATES COMMISSION.
LORD BEAUMONTpresented a petition from Lady Jervis White Jervis, complaining that an estate belonging to her husband (from whom she is separated), worth 3,470 l. per annum at present, and likely to be improved considerably, was about to be sold by the Encumbered Estates Commissioners upon the petition of the junior creditor, whose judgment was only for 1,000 l., the entire mortgage debts amounting to no more than 20,000 l., and the judgments to only 9,000 l. She had appealed to the Commissioners to prevent the sale, but they decided that she had no locus standi; and her husband (Sir Henry Jervis White Jervis) not choosing to appeal against the sale, the rule would be made absolute within twenty-eight days if cause were not shown to the contrary before the expiration of that period.
LORD BROUGHAMasked, if Lady Jervis's separate maintenance were or were not charged upon the estate, and if it were in the hands of trustees under the deed for securing the separate maintenance?
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, the separate maintenance was not a charge upon the estate. He had been instructed that there were no trustees under the deed of separation; having no separate interest in the estate, the petitioner could not be heard against the sale.
LORD BROUGHAM: Then the petitioner has no locus standi whatever. She has no interest in the estate, and the Commissioners could not listen to her.
LORD BEAUMONTwas aware of that, and that the Commissioners could not have acted otherwise than they did. He knew, also, that Parliament could not interfere in this particular case. But their Lordships should see to the amendment of the Act as soon as possible, in order to prevent its being made an instrument of oppression, which it certainly never was the intention of their Lordships it should be. It was never passed for cases like this, where estates were encumbered to no more than half their value. It was only intended to apply to hopelessly encumbered estates. The present case was an instance of the Act being used as a means of oppression. The steward of the petitioner lends
4
1,000 l. to the estate, and obtains a judgment to secure payment; he is subsequently a defaulter to the amount of 500 l. in his account with his employer, and is dismissed in consequence. Henry White Jervis, who has the management of her husband's estate, endeavours to set off the 500 l. against the 1,000 l., and to pay the difference, when the defaulting steward transfers the judgment to a solicitor in London, who, under the new Act, puts the estate into the court, and forces a sale. But his noble Friend seemed to have a passion for being an auctioneer. He wished to see the whole land of Ireland sold up, and the country entirely revolutionised.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the petitioner had no locus standi in the court, and the Commissioners were not at all involved in the complaint made.
The EARL of GLENGALLsaid, he did not understand the noble Lord to have made any charge against the Commissioners. There were some of the "General Rules" issued by the Commissioners that he thought very ill-advised. He thought they should allow at least three months' notice, instead of twenty-eight days, before proceeding to a sale. He also objected to the rule they had adopted of declaring the purchaser forthwith. In the Court of Chancery, fourteen days were allowed after a bidding before the purchaser was declared, and during that period any party might send in a fresh bidding, so that a sale might be thus continued for a considerable period, and this rule ought, he thought, to have been still more strictly adhered to under the Encumbered Estates Commission, considering that the puisne creditors were likely to be left without a single penny in payment of their debts. In the recent sale under the commission, when these three auctioneers announced their determination to declare the purchaser at once, the purchase money amounted to only 8½ years on the rent formerly paid for the farm, though it was somewhere about twenty years' purchase at the depreciated rent now paid.
LORD CAMPBELLmust protest against any encouragement being given to petitions such as that now before the House, as it was clear that their Lordships had no power whatever to interfere in the matter. The Act of Parliament declared the decision of the Commissioners to be final, and gave no power of appeal from it. But the noble Earl who had just sat down ap-

5
peared to be determined to bring every act of the Commissioners night after night in review before their Lordships' House, and yet the noble Earl must know very well that the House had no power of interfering. If the petitioner had a locus standi before the Commissioners, they would, no doubt, have heard her; but it appeared that, in point of fact, she had no interest whatever in the estate that was the subject of the proceedings. The Act declared that in every case where the encumbrances were more than half the actual value of the estate, the Commissioners should be authorised to sell, but they were not bound to proceed to a sale unless they saw it was for the interest of the parties that they should do so, and that the state of the market rendered the step advisable. The noble Earl had not only assailed the Commissioners, and called them auctioneers, but he had attacked the Privy Council in Ireland by attacking the general rules that had been modified by them. These rules had been moulded and remoulded by the Commissioners, and the Privy Council, and were, he would maintain, most admirably suited for facilitating the proceedings of the commission. With regard to the particular rule of closing the sale forthwith, to which the noble Earl objected, he thought it was a most excellent one, and that the system of the Court of Chancery, instead of being preferable, had the effect of keeping away bidders.
The EARL of GLENGALLsaid, he did not care for any objection that might be felt to his bringing the acts of these Commissioners before the House, as he was determined to persevere until he saw complete justice done to the landed interests of Ireland. He regarded the Act as most arbitrary, unconstitutional, and unjust, and one that would not be borne with in this country for a single day. It was an Act, the object of which was to destroy the gentry of Ireland; and as 99 out of every 100 of these gentry were Conservatives, he felt justified in regarding it as a blow aimed against the Conservative party in Ireland.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, as an Irish Peer, he felt called upon to express his opinion that it was very improper for an English Peer to get up in his place and nullify a statement made by an Irish nobleman with regard to that country. He believed that a more arbitrary Act never passed through that House than the Act in question. It had been forced on Ireland against the wishes of Ireland, and against
6
the wishes of the majority of both Houses of Parliament. The noble Lord was entitled to present this petition by the Bill of Rights; and he was sorry that that Bill should have been called in question in their Lordships' House. A more oppressed body than the Irish landowners never existed; but when the oppression came home to landowners in this country, they would view the subject in a different light from what they saw it in at present.
LORD BEAUMONTexplained that he did not mean to make any charge against the Commissioners, as he was quite aware beforehand that the petitioner had not any locus standi in their court. He could not join in all the charges that had been urged against both the Act and the Commissioners; but he certainly felt that the present case was one of those in which the Legislature did not intend that a sale should take place. He trusted, however, that the estate would not be sold.
The EARL of GLENGALLbegged to explain that he did not mean to cast any slur on the Commissioners by calling them auctioneers.
Petition to lie on the table.

RAILWAY PROPERTY.
LORD MONTEAGLE, after presenting two petitions from Sheffield and another place, praying for an inquiry into the causes of the depreciation of railway property, observed, that taking the following most important and most successful lines—the Great Western, the North Western, the South Western, the Manchester and Leeds, the Midland, and the York and North Midland—he found that the average price of shares on the 11th of August, 1845, showed a premium of 116¾ per cent on the 1st of January, 1850, a discount of 36 l, being a depreciation of 153 per cent. The price of 100 l. nominal stock on the former day was 216 l. 15 s.; on the latter, 63 l, 5s., a depreciation of 153 l. 10 s, It might be asked whether the holder was still receiving his full dividends; but not so—the dividend fell in the same period from 7¾ per cent to 3½. The weekly traffic fell also from an average of 63 l. per mile to 45 l. 10 s. Such was the enormous and ruinous depreciation of this property—a depreciation not altogether attributable to the mere pecuniary state of these concerns, but also to the want of confidence in the management, and in the truth of the accounts. This, he believed, was very mainly attributable to the want of a proper

7
system of independent audit, on which not only the shareholders but the public at large would rely. This the House of Lords had felt, and the two last Sessions had endeavoured to supply the deficiency. This want of an audit led to much of the abuse and misapplication of capital, of which the public had a right to complain. In the absence of a good system of audit, it behoved Parliament to be cautious what Bills they should pass. Above sixty railroads were already applied for in the present Session. Of these it was probable that several were for increased capital and extension of powers. Could such Bills be passed in cases where former privileges had been misused? It was his wish to guard the House against this risk. It was most important that Parliament, which was in a certain degree a trustee for the public, should know, when railway companies came before them, whether there had been malversation or not, and whether it was fit that they should have further powers. He wished to bring before them in every case the means of forming a judgment on this point. He had therefore to move—
"That ten days at the least before the second reading of any private Bill for making, improving, abandoning, or in any other way affecting or varying any railway, or for creating, incorporating, or affecting the powers vested in any railway company, or for the amalgamation of any railway company, or in any other way touching the same, there be delivered, at the office of the Clerk of the Parliaments, for the use of this House, copies of the balance sheets of every such company for the years 1848 and 1849, as required to be kept by the 8th as 9th Victoria, cap. 16, or by any Act incorporating such company; together with copies of the schemes for dividend on which dividends shall have been declared during the years 1848 and 1849, under sections 120, 121 of the said Act of the 8th & 9th Victoria, cap. 16, or under any other Act incorporating the company; and a statement of the amount of dividends declared in pursuance of such schemes, and the dates at which such schemes were agreed to, and the dividends declared."
Motion agreed to.

EMIGRANT SHIPS—FEMALE EMIGRANTS.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, in rising to bring forward the Motion of which he had given notice, respecting the appointment of a medical officer to the Una emigrant ship, he begged to remark that since he had last mentioned the subject in the House, some more recent information had arrived from Australia; and in the papers which he had received, he found that everything which he had the honour
8
of stating to their Lordships on the subject was more than confirmed. He held in his hand a copy of the South Australian Register, containing a statement signed by no less than 97 passengers on board the Indian, setting forth a number of specific atrocities against the officers of that vessel. It appeared also from these papers that a meeting had been called to give an opportunity to the medical officer, who had acted so gross a part, to rebut the charges against him; but the result was, that all the charges had been proved in the most satisfactory manner. He had to complain, however, that the emigration agent had attempted to screen not only the master but the doctor also. At the same time it should be admitted that the Governor, Sir H. Young, had taken up the matter in a highly creditable manner. With regard to these medical men placed on board emigrant vessels, a great deal of confidence was reposed in them. They were supposed not only to take care of the health of the passengers, and more particularly of the female portion of them, but to be also their protectors. But instead of discharging these duties, many of them had been in the habit of acting most improperly. As an instance of this conduct, he would beg to read a passage from a letter in the Adelaide Observer, written by William Noye, a schoolmaster, who went out, with his family, on board the Mary Anne, emigrant ship:—
"Satisfied with these assurances, I embarked at Plymouth on the 23rd of December, 1848, and on the 27th left the shores of Old England. My wife was confined on the 29th. On the evening of the third day after her confinement, I went to the surgeon and asked him if he would give me anything for my wife's supper. He told me he had nothing to give her. I replied she could not eat salt junk and hard biscuit, and asked for a little butter (for you must know, Sir, that though we had been nine days on board, we had no butter, flour, raisins, or such, served out). He told me there was none got up yet. The captain and chief mate were with him. The latter said she could have a little from the cabin. The surgeon said, 'No, it is not fit for her, nor shall she have it.' I asked what I was to do, when immediately the captain came to the rescue, saying,' D—ye; why, soak her bread. What the h—did you do at home? 'I answered that at home my wife got what was necessary, and I did not feed her during her confinements with rotten beef and bread overgrown with fungus, for which description of rations the Mary Anne could not be excelled. But to make the matter short, all the nourishment she obtained, during the entire voyage, more than a healthy emigrant's allowance, was four pints of preserved meat, and half a pint of preserved milk for the baby. I had to give up my small allowance of flour, and feed myself on

9
that rare composition, biscuit and fungus, in order to afford any chance of keeping my wife and children alive till we reached terra firma."
The result was thus mournfully told—
"Since our arrival we have laid our baby in the cemetery at Adelaide, and my wife is now suffering from derangement of the respiratory organs and has not been able to attend to her domestic duties since we landed."
It was with the view of eliciting the truth that he had made the Motion, of which he had given notice—
"That there be laid before this House Copies of the Testimonials, with the Names of the parties subscribed to them, produced by Thomas Hammond, upon the faith of which he was last summer appointed surgeon to the emigrant ship Una, together with the Minutes made by the Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioners on those Testimonials."
He wished their Lordships to see what sort of persons occasionally got employment on board emigrant vessels. It had come to his knowledge that this Mr. Thomas Hammond was a doctor resident at Eton for nearly thirty years. He was sorry to be obliged to speak of any individual, here or elsewhere, in strong terms, but he thought he was warranted in so doing from the wrongs inflicted on a great body of persons. He was informed that this person was a very notorious character for drunkenness and loose life, the effect of which was that he had ruined his family as well as himself; he became deranged, and was at length placed in a lunatic asylum near Norwich. There he remained until last year, and how he got out he (the Earl of Mountcashell) was unable to explain; but a very few months after his exit he was appointed surgeon on board this emigrant ship, which sailed about the middle of July from one of our ports for Sydney, with 313 souls on board, all of whom were of course entrusted to his care. He (the Earl of Mountcashell) was informed that he had produced six or seven testimonials of the highest character in his favour. He did not wish to bring any charge against the noble Earl, or the Colonial Office; his motive in bringing forward this case was to show the noble Earl and those connected with him that too much trust was not to be placed in testimonials which might be presented by men applying for office. He also hoped that it would serve as an occasion to medical men of high standing to take notice not to give testimonials without well knowing who the parties were, because, of course, if they did that, the Colonial Office had to depend
10
on them, and in that way the mischief was done, and much evil was the result. There was no account yet of the safe arrival of this vessel in Australia, so that the result in this instance was not known. But this appeared to be a case of too common occurrence. In a pamphlet published by Mr. Sidney, the following summary was given of cases reported in the blue book on Emigration, ordered by the House of Commons, July, 1849. The Immigrant Board of Sydney observes—
"It is impossible to convey a just idea of the gross abuses and infamous misconduct which occurred (on board the Subraon) owing to the 'imbecility' of the surgeon-superintendent. Unrestrained intercourse took place between the sailors and the women, and between certain officers and certain single women. Among these girl" were twelve girls from a foundling institution in Dublin, one of whom, a very interesting girl too, was seduced by the chief officer, and died in consequence of miscarriage before she could be landed from the vessel. The surgeon of the Canton is pronounced not qualified for his office. Equestrian.—Surgeon not sufficient energy or activity. Fairlie.—Surgeon's manners violent and grossly offensive. Agincourt.—Deficient in energy, and principles bad. Charlotte Jane.—Surgeon, bad habits; intoxication; undesirable that he should be employed again. Emperor.—Great freedom of intercourse appears to have existed between the single women, the mates, and seamen. General Hewitt,—Intimacies between some of the sailors and the single women have fallen under my notice, that induce me to suspect that their intercourse during the passage was not sufficiently prevented. Cornwall.—Surgeon, young and inexperienced, but attentive to the performance of his duties. A formal charge was made affecting the conduct of the mate of the ship, with reference to certain of the single women. The superintendent reported that 'without doubt, the accusation was not devoid of foundation, and that a certain degree of immorality must have prevailed on board.' Hyderbad—Duties of surgeon-superintendent not performed in a satisfactory manner, and should not be employed again. Lady Peel—Total unfitness of the surgeon for his duties. Out of twenty surgeon-superintendents selected by the emigration commissioners, eleven were reported by the colonial authorities as more or less unfit for their very responsible duties."
Could proper caution be taken if this was so? In an article in the Adelaide Observer, of the 6th of October, it was said—
"From what college of surgeons the ships' doctors are usually drafted for the Australian voyage, we are at a loss to conjecture. The many declared instances of incompetency and inhumanity are appalling, and the numerous fatal results call loudly for a thorough reformation in the system of selection. The practice of excessive drinking is so general, that a kind and sober doctor seems to be quite an exception."
He was convinced, not only from the

11
sources he had quoted, but from many letters he had received, that the treatment of emigrants, particularly the females on hoard of these vessels, was of the most disgusting and disgraceful character, and it often happened that not only their morals were not attended to, but in case of illness scarcely any attention was paid to them at all. The consequence had been great loss of life, or where this did not occur, suffering. If the present Acts of Parliament were not sufficiently stringent, surely it was the business of Her Majesty's Ministers to have an Act properly framed, so that the matter might be no longer neglected. If this statement could not he contradicted, and it went abroad that there was no protection for females of good character, it was clear that none would consent to go. You might send as many as you pleased of the sweepings of the streets, but the people of Australia would not thank you for them. They wished for a different class of women—persons of innocent hah its and well disposed, whom they might make their wives and sisters. In the papers he had seen it was stated that many of the girls who had been maltreated were quite innocent and well behaved; but from their not having received sufficient protection, they had been corrupted in the course of the voyage. On board of the Ramillies four young women were said to have been flogged by order of the doctor. It was possible they might have misconducted themselves, but he did not think it right that power should be vested in the doctor to flog females. He knew the danger of bringing together in a small space the evil and the good. Some classification of the passengers ought to be made, and the evil inclined should be separated from the virtuous and well disposed.
EARL GREYcould safely refer their Lordships to the papers on the table, so far as regarded the noble Earl's statement of general mismanagement on hoard emigrant ships. The fullest information was furnished with regard to them all, and an examination of it would show, that, though with so large an emigration some cases of misconduct would necessarily arise, the system, as a whole, was successfully and efficiently conducted. The noble Earl had said that the surgeons were generally inefficient, and the ships generally ill-conducted. In answer to that, he (Earl Grey) would state one simple, but conclusive, fact—that, taking the returns of the number of persons embarked, and the deaths
12
on the voyage, the mortality during that long passage to Australia, with all the accidents and hardships of such a voyage, was actually less than the average mortality among the same number of persons of the same age living in this country. The noble Earl mentioned a great number of cases of misconduct of particular surgeons. Of course it was impossible for him (Earl Grey) to be prepared to go through those cases; but, listening attentively to them, he heard it stated of one, "undesirable to be employed again." The Emigration Commissioners could hardly be blamed for not finding that out till they had employed him once. Another was described as "young and inexperienced." It was impossible, with the great demand for these surgeons, always to obtain persons of experience and mature age. But the Commissioners took this precaution, which was, upon the whole, effective—that the remuneration of the surgeon increased according to the number of voyages he took. The most strict supervision was exercised over the vessels when they arrived; and if the surgeon was found in any respect to have fallen short of the proper discharge of his duties, he was immediately reported to the board here, and not again employed. If the case was more serious, he lost the gratuity to which he was entitled; and if the case was considered to deserve it, he was brought up before the legal tribunals for punishment for any infringement of the law. In no instance had the Emigration Commissioners failed to exercise the very largo powers given them by law, as they judged to be required; and those powers, as they had been, would continue to be, exerted to the utmost, in order to punish every case of abuse. The noble Earl had alluded to cases of immoral conduct, which it was impossible sometimes to prevent, even among the domestics in a large establishment; but every possible exertion was made to prevent it. He said, that if these things were permitted, respectable women would not go out. Now, the Emigration Commissioners were so satisfied of the danger and difficulty of sending out single women, that it had long been their practice to discourage their going; nor would they allow a single woman to embark on board one of their vessels unless she had some one with her who could protect her, except in the case of vessels chartered for such persons as those from the Irish workhouses; and the abuses that took place there were

13
through the scandalous fraud sanctioned by the Irish board of guardians, with whose direct cognisance the master of the work-house substituted some improper characters to answer to the names of those who were to have embarked. With that one exception, the Irish emigration had generally been conducted with as much success as could be expected. It was impracticable by any regulation to guard against all abuse. The Emigration Commissioners had declined as much as possible to conduct the emigration of single women, and wished to confine themselves almost entirely to the emigration of families; and that seemed to be almost the only emigration that could go on to any great extent with success. With regard to the present Motion, so far from objecting to it, he (Earl Grey) thanked the noble Earl for having made it. It was, of course, impossible for the Commissioners to judge of the characters of surgeons except by the testimonials. He had in his hands copies of the testimonials produced by Mr. Hammond, and, after perusing them, he was convinced that there must have been some mistake, and that the person to whom the noble Earl referred could not be the Mr. Hammond to whom those testimonials had been given. It appeared that Mr. Hammond applied in the ordinary way for employment on the 11th of June last year, and he handed in to the chairman of the Emigration Board a number of certificates. [The noble Earl proceeded to road the papers furnished to the board by Mr. Hammond, which inclosed testimonials from many eminent practitioners, giving him a very high character.] He (Earl Grey) thought it was almost impossible for any gentleman to have produced higher testimonials, and that such testimonials could not have been given by gentlemen of high standing in the medical profession to a person of the character and conduct described by the noble Earl. He (Earl Grey) concurred, however, with that noble Lord in thinking that those who signed testimonials of this kind incurred great responsibility, and that persons who gave such testimonials improperly should be held answerable for their misconduct. He had, therefore, no difficulty in agreeing to the Motion of the noble Earl; but he hoped it would be proved that the noble Earl had been mistaken in his statements.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, that the circumstance mentioned by Mr. Guthrie, that the surgeon to whom he gave
14
a testimonial had resided at Windsor, confirmed him in the opinion that the Mr. Hammond to whose conduct he had called attention, and the Mr. Hammond to whom that testimonial was given, were one and the same person. He believed the noble Earl opposite would find that Mr. Hammond, after a residence of some thirty years at Windsor, was pretty well known there, and if the noble Earl wished for any information respecting Mr. Hammond, he (the Earl of Mountcashell) had no doubt he might obtain it from the Rev. Stirling Marshall, of Eton College. His object in bringing this matter under the notice of their Lordships and of the public was, that some check might in future be provided against such disgraceful proceedings as he had described.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned to Thursday next.