Lords Sitting of 15 February 1850

OUTRAGES IN EMIGRANT SHIPS.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELL, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, rose to inquire whether the Government had received any communications relative to the ill-treatment of the emigrants on board the bark Indian, destined for Port Adelaide, South Australia? He had seen—as he had no doubt many of their Lordships had seen—in the Morning Post a statement regarding this emigrant vessel, which, in the course of last year, had sailed, with 182 emigrants on board,
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to Australia. Amongst those emigrants were married, and many unmarried, women. It appeared that the treatment to which these women were exposed during the voyage was of so gross and scandalous a character, that, on their arrival at Adelaide, their friends called, by advertisement, a public meeting, at which a great number of emigrants themselves were present. The chairman stated generally to the meeting the gross and shameful usage which the emigrants, particularly the females, had experienced, owing to the remissness of the captain, and the disgraceful conduct of the second mate, the surgeon, and the steward, by whom the vessel had been converted into a sink of iniquity worse than any brothel in London. The second mate, in his drunken fits, had forced himself into the cabins of the female passengers, and had committed the most revolting debaucheries with those who admitted, and had been guilty of great cruelty and violence towards those who stood firm against, his advances. One innocent young woman, who resisted his proposals, and complained of his conduct to the captain, was taken upon deck, and buckets of water were thrown upon her. One of the male passengers, who stood up in her defence, was grossly insulted. Violence was exhibited towards all who stood up for her protection; and the captain informed her that, if she made a second complaint of the conduct of his officers, she should be placed in confinement. The only officer on board the ship who acted in a proper and becoming manner was Mr. Davis, the first mate; all the rest acted most shamefully. He called the attention of Her Majesty's Ministers to these outrageous transactions, because it was very important that some measures should be adopted to prevent the recurrence of them. He had been informed that a society had been recently established in London, by which a large sum had been subscribed by benevolent individuals, for the purpose of aiding distressed women to emigrate to our colonies. Now, after the publication of such a statement as that of which he had given their Lordships the substance, was it likely that any virtuous and well-conducted woman would trust herself on board of a vessel if she was not sure of protection? He was sorry to say that this was not an isolated case, for he had heard of other vessels where similar profligacy had prevailed, although the outrageous conduct of the officers and crew

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had not been made public. Besides the reasons which he had already mentioned, there was another which induced him to bring this abominable state of things under the notice of Parliament. During the course of last summer, the Poor Law Commissioners in England and Ireland had sent to the different boards of guardians in both countries circulars inquiring whether they had, in their respective districts, any poor, but well-conducted, girls who were willing to emigrate. Many such young women were selected in both countries, and several from the union with which he was connected. Now, if there were to be no protection offered to these friendless young women, either by the captain, or the mates, or the other officers of the emigrant vessels in which they had embarked, and if the matron were to be reduced to a mere cypher, and left without any power, it must be productive of the greatest evil. It also appeared, from statements made at the meeting at Adelaide, that, in contravention of the express provisions of the Passengers' Acts, spirits had been publicly sold on board of this vessel, though there was a heavy penalty affixed to every distinct offence of that sort; and that it was in and after the drunken revelries of the officers that these atrocious assaults on unprotected women were generally attempted. In contravention of another provision of the same Act, it appeared that the proper quantity of water and of food allotted to each passenger, had been systematically kept from them; and that, in consequence, they had been obliged to live on short commons during the greater part of their long voyage. Memorials on this subject, he understood, had been sent both to the noble Secretary for the Colonies, and to his right hon. relative the Secretary for the Home Department. He wished to know whether those memorials had been received, and, if so, what were the steps which Government intended to take upon them?
EARL GREY, in reply to the question of the noble Earl, said, that no official communication on this subject had yet been received by Her Majesty's Government. In a newspaper, however, from the colony, which had been recently received in this country overland from India, and of a later date than the last official despatches, he had seen an account of the outrages to which the noble Earl had referred. From that newspaper it appeared that allegations of the existence of very serious abuses on
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board of this emigrant vessel had been preferred at a public meeting in the colony. Those allegations were now under the investigation of the colonial government, and he could assure the noble Earl that it would be strictly carried on not only by the colonial government but by the Government at home; and that, if abuses had taken place, those who had been guilty of them had incurred, and should be made subject to, the severest penalties of the law. Not only were the officers of the vessel liable to severe penalties under the Passengers' Acts for any abuses committed during the voyage, but the shipowners also would not escape from them. The Emigration Commissioners, by virtue of the contracts which they had made with the shipowners, were entitled to hold back a large portion of the passage-money paid for these emigrants in case any abuses took place on board their vessels. He informed their Lordships that whenever abuses had taken place, the Emigration Commissioners had not hesitated to exercise the power vested in them. When the noble Earl stated that the present was not a solitary case of abuse, but that there were many others which had not come before the public, he appeared to him (Earl Grey) to be, if not wholly uninformed, at least very nearly so. He (Earl Grey) appealed to those noble Lords who had read the papers recently laid on the table on the subject of emigration, whether they did not contain satisfactory proofs both of the pains and of the success with which the Emigration Commissioners had exerted themselves to check abuses of this kind. He need not say that cases of abuse must sometimes occur; but he could assure the noble Earl that, whenever they did occur, they should not, as far as he (Earl Grey) was concerned, pass unpunished. For the conduct of the officers of the ship the Emigration Commissioners were not responsible, for the officers were selected by the shipowners; but the Commissioners had this check upon the shipowners, that they could deprive them of a large portion of the passage-money, in case they appointed officers who either committed themselves or sanctioned abuses in others. In one case, he had himself directed the Emigration Commissioners to enforce the whole amount of the forfeiture on the shipowners, and the Emigration Commissioners had in consequence withheld from them 500 l., to which they would have been otherwise entitled. The surgeon of the vessel was

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under the control of the Commissioners; but, as no great remuneration was offered to the surgeons of emigrant vessels, there was some difficulty in getting competent persons to act in that capacity. In a great majority of cases, however, the surgeons had performed their duty very admirably. In the present case, the surgeon had been very hastily appointed, in consequence of a very serious illness which had suddenly attacked the surgeon previously appointed. [The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL: Mr. Sand-ford?] Yes, and looking at the testimonials upon which he had received his appointment, he must say that they were sufficiently strong to justify the Emigration Commissioners in sanctioning it. The noble Earl had referred to other instances of abuse which, he alleged, had occurred in the case of female emigrants from Ireland. Generally speaking, the female emigrants from Ireland had turned out well; but in one case great abuses had occurred, not indeed on the part of the officers of the vessel which carried them out, but in consequence of the gross deceit which had been practised on the Emigration Commissioners by parties in Ireland as to the character of the women embarked. The poor-law guardians, for some reason or other, allowed other women, especially women from the town of Belfast, to be sent on board instead of those of whose good character they had given testimonials. This was almost the only case of abuse with which he was acquainted. As soon as the information reached him, he took care that more caution should be exercised by the authorities in Ireland. He readily admitted to the noble Earl that in conducting emigration to so distant a quarter of the globe, the difficulty of guarding against abuses was very great; but, on the other hand, he assured him that no effort had been, and that no effort would be, spared to guard against them. So far as the Emigration Commissioners were concerned, emigration was conducted with as little abuse as possible.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, that he was very glad to hear the statement of the noble Earl, which he thought would produce the most beneficial results.
Subject at an end.

NATIONAL EDUCATION—THE MANAGEMENT CLAUSES.
LORD STANLEYwished to put a question with regard to a portion of the proceedings of the Committee of Council on
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Education, which was regarded with considerable interest, especially by clergymen of the Church of England. He would not enter into a discussion of the merits of the Committee itself, or of any part of its proceedings; but there was one point upon which there appeared to be a general misunderstanding and doubt, as to a matter of fact, and, as it led to a controversy between the National Society and the Government, it ought at once to be set right. He, therefore, took the liberty of referring to that one point. It would be in their Lordships' recollection, that up to the year 1846, or during the early period of the existence of the Committee, the Parliamentary grants which were disbursed by them were exclusively for the erection and building of schools, and all negotations before the years 1839 and 1840, had reference to grants for building purposes. Subsequently, the objects of the Committee, with the means at its disposal, were much extended, and the grants for building purposes became subsidiary, and, during the last two years, wholly secondary objects; and a great portion of the funds was given for the maintenance of certain schools, and for supplying, upon the reports of Government inspectors, premiums to teachers and pupils. Ultimately, the management clauses were introduced, and their adoption was made a necessary preliminary to the acceptance of aid from the public funds. Those management clauses were objectionable to the Church schools, and, in consequence, they had been debarred from any participation in the grant. However, within the last few days he had seen a pamphlet which, although not written from authority, evidently showed the author was well acquainted with the subject; and, in the postscript at the end of the pamphlet, there was a statement to the effect that the requiring of the adoption of the management clauses, as a condition for obtaining Government pecuniary assistance, did not apply to those subsequent objects—the maintenance of the schools, and the premiums to pupils and teachers, but was applicable only to the case of schools hereafter to be erected, and then, in their case, only as far as regarded the building of them; that schools already erected, or hereafter to be erected, whether they adopted the management clauses or not, would be entitled to the aid of Government in other respects, on the condition of submitting to Government inspection. It was important to know whether

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that statement was correct or not; whether, according to the pamphlet, schools, independent of the adoption or otherwise of the management clauses, should participate in the advantages of the public grant?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwould follow the noble Lord's example in not entering upon any discussion of the general subject. In reply to the noble Lord, he must be allowed to say that the pamphlet, though written with ability, was the production of an individual clergyman, published without any sort of authority whatever. The appearance, however, of that pamphlet would naturally suggest to the noble Lord the inquiry as to the matter of fact; and, in answer, he had to inform him that the statement applied to a state of things which had not yet actually arisen. He could not find that any case of an application for an annual allowance, on the part of schools submitting to the Government inspection, and not receiving a grant, had occurred. He could not find either that any case bearing the least analogy had occurred; therefore, all he could say was, that the rules and regulations relating to the management clauses had been adopted, after much deliberation, and after strong recommendations, with some modifications, with a view to giving satisfaction to the members of the Church of England; but there was no reason why they should not receive applications from schools which had been erected without any assistance from the public funds. At the same time, as it was obvious that schools erected before those management clauses were adopted, had received aid, there was no rule adopted which should prevent the Committee from considering any application that should be made by schools which had not been erected by assistance from Government, for further assistance administered in the shape of an allowance for premiums to teachers and pupils.

ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND).
The EARL of GLENGALLmoved for—
"A Return from the Commissioners of the Court of Incumbered Estates, Ireland, stating the Number of Petitions lodged in their Court to this Date, the Total Rental of the Property in each case proposed to be sold, and the Gross Amount of Incumbrances stated to be chargeable thereon."
He considered it most essential that their Lordships should have the information which this return would afford. Last
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Session an Act was passed, which had been pronounced an arbitrary measure in that House, but which he called unconstitutional, and he had seen no reason to change his opinion of its character. Deep sensation had been created in every part of Ireland at the vast amount of property which this Act had brought under the control of the Commissioners appointed to execute it. No fewer than 420 petitions had already been lodged in the court, involving a rental of nearly 1,500,000 l., and the interests of 80,000 creditors. All these interests were, therefore, placed in jeopardy; and when the extreme depreciation of property and produce was taken into consideration, it could not be surprising that the deepest interest was felt in the proceedings of the court. It had been reported, and he wished to be informed if the report was true, that it was the intention of the Commissioners to proceed to sales whatever might be the result of the auction. He had indeed heard that they had declared they would sell any property, provided seven years' purchase was offered. Whether this statement was true or not, he did not pretend to say, but certainly it was so reported; and he had been requested to ask Her Majesty's Government whether such was or was not the decision of the Commissioners. A vast quantity of land was now for sale in Ireland, and if the Commissioners sold for anything like seven, or ten, or twelve years' purchase, it was manifest the owners must be ruined. A sale under such circumstances would, in in point of fact, amount to a direct and wholesale confiscation; and he trusted Her Majesty's Government would not consent to allow such proceedings to take effect. A state of things somewhat similar to the present occurred during the rebellion of 1798, when Lord Clare was Lord Chancellor of Ireland. A great amount of landed property came into the Court of Chancery, and it was proposed to sell it; Lord Clare, however, distinctly refused to make decrees for the sale of those estates, because he knew that a sale under such circumstances would deprive the owners and their creditors of all their property. He, therefore, held the decrees over, and in the course of the following year property resumed its former value, on which the mortgagees, who had been anxious to sell, were perfectly satisfied to allow their money to remain upon the land as before. In common justice, then, he hoped that sales, such as those to which he referred, would

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not be allowed to proceed; for, he repeated, they amounted to downright robbery. At all events, he hoped no sale would be made until something like a fair value was offered. He wished to ask the noble Marquess whether it was true that the Commissioners had decided that property should be sold for less than seven years' purchase.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, in reply to the question of the noble Earl, begged that he would understand that he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) did not represent the Commissioners of Encumbered Estates, and that he did not feel himself authorised to state the views which they had laid down for their course of action in the exercise of the very large discretion which Parliament had reposed in them last Session. But he had no hesitation in saying, that the Commissioners had not adopted any such rule as the noble Earl had supposed; on the contrary, he should rather say that they had expressly guarded themselves against the adoption of any such rule. He drew this conclusion from the spirit of their proceedings. In conclusion, the noble Marquess said he had no objection to the Motion of the noble Earl, after certain verbal alterations, which he suggested should have been made in it.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLreminded their Lordships that when the Encumbered Estates Bill was before them in the last Session, the noble Marquess the President of the Council had stated that great care should be taken that a vast mass of land should not be thrown into the market at one time; but the result of the Bill had been that great quantities of land had been simultaneously thrown into the market, and the price had in consequence been very much reduced. In his opinion, the greatest care should be taken in carrying out the provisions of the Act, that property should not be sacrificed.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEexplained, that when the Act was under consideration last Session, a hope was expressed in relation to the manner in which the Commissioners would exercise their discretion; but he was not aware of any pledge having been given. He was perfectly assured that the spirit which animated the Commissioners was such as he had endeavoured to describe; and when the noble Earl spoke of land being depreciated by being thrown upon the market, he would only remind him that the operation of the Act would, upon the whole, enhance its value.
LORD BEAUMONTwas afraid that the Motion of the noble Earl would tend to produce the very evils which he wished to avert. If the returns for which he had moved were produced, they would make it appear to the public that an enormous mass of property was about to he disposed of; and if that knowledge were not accompanied by the information that a rule had been adopted by the court that only a certain quantity of land should be placed in the market at one time, of course the natural impression amongst persons who were inclined to bid would be, that, from the immense quantity of land thus thrown into the market, prices must necessarily be lowered. The public would draw their inferences from the return moved for, and finding these orders of the court for the sale of real property to so large an amount, would not think of competing for the lots about to be put up to auction. Purchasers would bide their time, and speculators calculate on lower prices. There would be no competition. He thought the Motion was, therefore, ill-advised, and dangerous to the value of Irish land. He confessed that he was quite alarmed at the number of petitions which had been already lodged in the Commissioners' Court, and the reported amount of property that would soon be in its hands. Still, notwithstanding that circumstance, he could not imagine that it would be in accordance with a sense of justice, either to the landowners or the puisne creditors, that they should throw all that land into the market at once. No land should be disposed of unless there was competition in the market; for though he knew there were certain grounds for expecting that the price of land would never rise to what it was formerly, he was far from desponding on that subject, and he firmly believed, and if he had time he could show ample reasons for the belief, that the value of land would again rise, if not actually to its former value, yet to something very near that amount, and that would be the case in Ireland as well as in this country. With this conviction on his mind, he trusted the Commissioners would defer sales till such period as the land would reach its fair and proper value. Let it therefore be known that the object of the Act was not to glut the market, and thus bring down the price of land, but to facilitate the transfer, and give the purchaser a good title when the state of the market and the demand for land made it desirable that deeply encumbered estates should be sold.
LORD CAMPBELLexpressed an earnest hope that the observations of his noble Friend (Lord Beaumont) would be published all over England and Ireland; for, if so, they would have a tendency to raise the price of land in both countries. He reminded their Lordships that these Commissioners were judges, and that they were invested with large discretionary powers. The noble Marquess would not be authorised in stating what they intended to do; but he (Lord Campbell) believed that they would exercise their jurisdiction in such a manner as would prove not only creditable to themselves, but also highly beneficial to the owners of encumbered estates, and to their mortgagees.
The EARL of GLENGALLbelieved the Commissioners intended to act with perfect justice; but as they were bound to make a report of their proceedings within one month after the meeting of Parliament, he hoped their report would embrace a copy of all their rules and regulations.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, the Commissioners knew perfectly well they were entrusted with very large powers; and he believed their discretion would be so exercised as to prevent an undue accumulation of land in the market.
On Question, agreed to.
House adjourned to Monday next.