HL Deb 11 February 1850 vol 108 cc625-34
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE,

having moved that this Bill be read a second time, said he would beg to offer a few observations for the purpose of distinctly stating what the objects of the measure were, and in what way he proposed to carry those objects into effect. He need not dwell on the circumstances attending the creation of the former commission. Their Lordships would recollect that about 1835, in consequence of many remarks made in and out of Parliament as to the then state of the revenues of the Church, it was proposed to appoint a Commission to determine in what way those revenues could be better applied and distributed for the benefit of the Church. A Commission was accordingly appointed, which, in the following year (1836), made a full report on the subject. That report met with the full approbation of Parliament and of the Government, and in pursuance of its recommendation a Commission was appointed in that year, 1836, to give effect to an improved distribution of the Church revenues. That Commission, consisting of thirteen members, some ecclesiastical and some lay, proceeded to carry into execution the recommendations of the previous Commission, and to devise certain schemes, which, submitted for the approbation of Parliament by the channel of the Privy Council, were to be carried into effect by Orders in Council, and he believed very beneficially so. A great many such schemes were carried into effect; but after a time certain changes were made in the composition of the Commission, which, in his opinion, had not had the result of better qualifying the Commission for the then increased magnitude of their task, but rather, with the best intentions on the part of the members, of diminishing their aptitude for that purpose. The alteration made in 1840 enlarged the limited number of thirteen to forty-nine, including the whole bench of bishops. Now, the Commission having to deal with very difficult, very important, and very complicated pecuniary interests, and being composed of so large a number of persons, none of whom were bound constantly to attend, and any portion of whom attending were subject at any time to the interference of any others of the numbers, a body so composed had rather the effect of retarding, and, perhaps, of confusing its own proceedings. Many of the regulations adopted were calculated to have the same result; such, for example, as that which subjected any person in the room who happened, by reason of his seniority in rank, to fill the chair, to be displaced at any point of the proceedings by any other person, his superior in rank, who might happen to come in. There were many subordinate regulations equally objectionable. Yet, when the importance of the interests! involved was considered, it was obvious that the utmost attainable efficiency ought to be secured. The Commission had to deal with property derived from episcopal funds, of not less in amount than 16,000l. a year, and with property derived from what was called the common fund not less in amount at present than 136,000l. per annum, and which would, before very long, attain the amount of 300,000l. per annum, derived from all manner of sources, from all manner of interests; from property leased on lives, on years, on renewals by fine, all necessarily requiring the most constant and vigilant attention on the part of the Commissioners. He was not surprised that a Commission so composed and so enlarged should fail to attain the object in view—the equal, prompt, and beneficial application of the funds thus derived from the Church. It was admitted on all hands that a state of things had arisen which made it imperative to alter and amend the composition of the Committee, and he would, therefore, briefly state to their Lordships what were the provisions of the Bill which had been prepared for the purpose of rendering the Commission more efficient for securing greater attention to the important details involved, and to the pecuniary interests intrusted to the Commission; so that these might not be left to the incidental care of persons who might attend at one time and not at another. It was proposed by the Bill to name three Commissioners for the management of these Church estates, to be called the Church Estates Commissioners. In the report of the Committee of the House of Lords it was recommended that all the three Commissioners should be paid Commissioners; but, on reflection, it had been considered that it would be sufficient to have only two of the Commissioners paid Commissioners, and that a third Commissioner might be found, fully competent to the task, whom it would not be necessary to remunerate for that particular service. The Bill provided that these three persons should compose an independent Commission of three Commissioners, one of them to be named by the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the other two by the Crown; the paid Commissioner appointed by the Crown to be the chairman of the Estates Committee, and to be paid an allowance of 1,200l. per annum; the paid Commissioner named by the Archbishop of Canterbury to be paid an allowance of 1,000l. per annum for his services. In order to secure adequate attention to the business of the Commission, and to prevent those accidents which had occurred under the late arrangement, it was provided that no act, matter, or thing should be done at any meeting of the Church Estates Commissioners, unless two of the Commissioners were present. Another provision, the necessity of which had been enforced by a recent unfortunate circumstance, was that the offices of secretary and of treasurer should not be filled by one and the same person; but that the office of treasurer should be jointly filled by the chairman of the Commission, and the Church Estates Commissioner appointed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Another clause provided that fixed incomes might be secured to those bishops, appointed after the 1st of January, 1848, who might prefer such fixed incomes to fluctuating annual incomes. By another clause it was provided, that henceforth what was called the "episcopal fund," arising from the diminution or alteration of episcopal revenues; and the "common fund," arising from the diminution or alteration of the revenues of deans and chapters, and other like sources, should form one fund, applicable to all the purposes conducive to the efficiency of the Established Church, now separately provided for by these funds. The only other clause to which he need refer, was one by which it was provided that the income of future Deans of York should not exceed 2,500l., that the future income of the present Deans of Salisbury and Wells should not exceed 1,500l. per annum; and that the income of future Deans of Chichester, Exeter, Hereford, Lichfield, Salisbury, and Wells, should not exceed 1,000l. per annum. The noble Marquess then moved the second reading of the Bill.

The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURY

said, he had great satisfaction in expressing his entire concurrence in what had fallen from the noble Marquess as to the desirableness of making an alteration in the Ecclesiastical Commission; for his part, he should have been very glad had such an alteration been made some years ago, but for the reflection that, in a pecuniary point of view, this would have been accompanied with the subtraction for salaries of so many thousands of pounds from the funds of the Church. It had now, however, become essential no longer to delay the change. The increasing business of the Commission, the many intricate negotiations in which it was involved, and the still greater number likely to devolve upon it, rendered it essential that there should be some responsible officers directly and distinctly charged with the administration of such important affairs, and of such large funds, so that the country might have some guarantee for the due execution of the one, and the due application of the other. With reference to the late Commission, he felt called upon emphatically to protest against many of the imputations which, out of doors, had been cast upon it. No one could assent to those imputations without doing much injustice to many noble and right honourable and honourable persons, who had given their time and attention, in the most disinterested way, to the business of the Commission. With reference to the late unhappy circumstance, by which 6,000l. had been abstracted from the funds of the Church, he could not help saying that the late secretary of the Commission had, up to within the last six months of his official life, performed the part of a faithful, zealous, and very useful servant. It would appear that some unhappy speculations, involving him in embarrassments, had induced him, in an evil hour, to appropriate the funds of the Church, in the expectation that he would be able to replace them. But a charge has been made against the Commission which I am chiefly concerned to notice, because it goes far to accuse of malversation the episcopal members of the Commission. We have been charged with applying to the purpose of building bishops' palaces the funds which ought to have been applied to the augmentation of livings. Allow me to lay before your Lordships the real circumstances of the case. It will be in your Lordships' recollection that the Commission, as at first established, had two objects to accomplish: one being the nearer equalisation of the several sees, by taking from the superfluity of one what might supply the deficiency of another; and, secondly, the furnishing endowments to those parts of the country where the revenues of the Church were very insufficient to meet the wants of the increasing population. The funds were to accrue from two different sources—partly from suppressed canonries and sinecures, partly from the contributions of the richer sees. As the objects were separate, and the sources by which they were to be supplied separate, it was natural that the funds also should be separate; and accordingly the Act of Parliament which constituted the Commission established also an episcopal and a common fund. From the episcopal fund so formed, a residence has been provided for the new see of Ripon, part of the expense of a new house for the Bishop of Lincoln has been furnished, and about 9,000l. has been expended upon the residences of the Bishops of Worcester, Gloucester, and Oxford; the whole expense being about 29,000l. Now, then, your Lordships will ask, how could the idea prevail that the expense has amounted to five times that sum? Whatever has been expended beyond 29,000l., has been mere exchange of property; property sold in Hants, and bought in Lincolnshire; property in Gloucestershire disposed of, and bought in Bristol; property at Bromley sold, and bought at Danbury. And how came it that this was charged to the account of the Commission? Because the negotiations were not carried on, as they would formerly have been, by private Acts of Parliament, but through the general powers granted by Parliament to the Commission. They therefore appear as part of its transactions. But the property itself never made part of the funds of the Commission, not was ever intended so to do; and was no more destined for the augmentation of benefices than the estates of any of your Lordships. It is very unfortunate, my Lords, that a misconception on this subject has so long prevailed, and that the public have been so slow to receive the explanation. An impression has been produced upon the minds of many of the clergy, natural under the circumstances, but not the loss to be regretted. Many of the clergy are in painfully straitened circumstances. Placed in insulated situations, and feeling the want of domestic comfort, they are led to marry early, often with no better provision than a precarious curacy, or an ill-paid incumbency. It cannot be matter of surprise that they soon find themselves embarrassed; and they naturally compare their incomes with their labours, their talents, their education, and think them very ill requited. My Lords, when men are distressed, it is easy to persuade them that they are ill used. But the supposition is no less unfounded than it is injurious to the Church. For it can be nothing but injurious to the Church, when the feelings of the inferior clergy are alienated from those who are above them in rank and fortune, though often in nothing else, and who probably, at the very moment when they he under the imputation of selfishness, are employing their time, their thoughts, their influence, and often not sparing their purses, in promoting the comfort, and increasing the means of usefulness, of their humbler brethren. My Lords, it is one of the purposes of the Act now brought in, to prevent the possibility of such misconceptions in future. It is intended to abolish all distinction between the episcopal and common fund, and to take from the general fund what may be required for any of the purposes of the Commission. But I am glad to have had the opportunity of showing that the episcopal members of the Commission have not been, as was supposed, selfish administrators of the means which a great sacrifice on the part of the Church had placed in their hands.

The EARL of HARROWBY

did not rise to oppose the Bill, though he confessed that he had some misgivings respecting it. The noble Earl then suggested that the interval of time between the second reading and the committal of the Bill would afford the Government an opportunity of introducing an Amendment, the object of which should be to increase the number of bishops from time to time as the wants of the community required them, without in each case having to draw invidious comparisons between the claims of different districts. He thought that it was not consistent with common sense that a number of bishops, which might have been sufficient to manage the affairs of the Church in the time of King Alfred, should be deemed sufficient for the purpose now that the population had increased to so vast an extent. Whenever an increase was made in any regiment in the army, it was always deemed necessary to increase the number of its colonels. The same rule, he thought, ought to apply to the Church. In his opinion, it was alike necessary to provide for the episcopal jurisdiction of the Church, and for the spiritual destitution of the people.

The BISHOP of LONDON

would strongly recommend the consideration of Her Majesty's Government of the suggestions thrown out by the noble Earl who had just spoken as to reserving the power of providing for the addition of new bishoprics, as occasion might arise, The present was the last opportunity that might present itself for making the necessary provisions for attaining that important object. As regarded the constitution of the Commission, he thought that a somewhat greater degree of equality should subsist among the members of it; and according to the provisions of the measure, Her Majesty's Commissioner would have, he apprehended, an undue preponderance. A complimentary allusion had been made to the manner in which the episcopal duties in London were performed; but it was impossible that any single individual, however zealous he might be, could be capable of adequately fulfilling the whole of those duties, overwhelmed as the diocese was with a rapidly-increasing population, and no one was more sensible than himself of the necessity of relieving the bishops from a portion of their labour. The right reverend Prelate then expressed some doubts as to the position of the episcopal commissioner being a sa- tisfactory one as proposed by the Bill, and the belief that, by the regulations proposed, it would be impossible that commissioner could ever sit in the chair of the Commission. Each commissioner, he thought, should take the chair alternately. With regard to the Ecclesiastical Commission, none had better performed its functions, until the great accession of business of late years, and it had worked more good for the public than the public imagined.

LORD STANLEY

concurred in the object of the present Bill, and believed it to be a most excellent measure. At the same time he must say he concurred, in the strongest possible manner, in the observations which had been made both by his noble Friend (Lord Harrow by) and the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of London), with respect to the particular provision of the Bill to which they had referred, and which, if it remained in its present state, took away any chance of increasing, either now or hereafter, the number of the bishops of the Church. He knew well all the difficulties of effecting that object; but their Lordships might depend upon it, that it was a question which if they did not face now, they would be obliged to do so at no very distant period; for it was utterly impossible, even if the present number of bishops was equal to the effective discharge of their duties now, that, with our growing population, with the increased attention which was paid to the religious instruction of the people, with the vast multiplication of the number of the clergy, with the increase of the number of churches which he was happy to see erecting throughout the country—it was utterly impossible, he said, even for the overlooking of the clergy alone, irrespective of other duties, that the same number of bishops which might have been sufficient for the past twenty years, should be adequate for the duty which would fall upon them twenty years hence. He had listened with great attention and respect to the explanations which had been given by the most rev. Prelate; but, while he gave him entire credit for the motives by which he had been actuated in assenting to the consolidation of the episcopal and common fund, he must say that the arguments which he had used in its favour led him (Lord Stanley) to an opposite conclusion, because he felt quite certain that if there was dissatisfaction felt at present, when there were two funds—viz. one upon which the inferior clergy bad no claim, and one upon which they had an exclusive claim, dissatisfaction would be felt much more strongly when the fund from which substractions were made, either for the purpose of establishing new bishops or for increasing the accommodation and comfort of those who already existed, was a fund upon which the inferior clergy had a legal claim, and when they felt, which they could not do at present, that the sums granted for the accommodation or increase of the higher order of the Church, were deducted from the fund which, by law, might be applicable to the increase of the inferior order. He feared, therefore, that the separation which the most rev. Prelate looked to as the means of diminishing the dissatisfaction among the inferior clergy, would have a precisely opposite effect, and would tend to introduce a new element of dissatisfaction and jealousy between the lower and higher order of clergy, and by doing so would inflict a serious injury upon the cause of religion by producing a feeling of alienation between those orders. The Government might rely upon it that this was the last chance of preserving the means of doing that for the higher order of clergy which for the benefit of all was essential to be done. He did not ask that the Bill should contain a provision for augmenting the number of bishops—although he thought it a highly desirable object; all he suggested and desired was, that the Bill should contain no provision which should put it out of their power, or the power of their successors (which they would do if they consolidated the episcopal and common fund), to provide for the wants of the Church hereafter when they should be felt to be most urgent. The noble Marquess had stated that the episcopal fund amounted to 16,000l. a year, and the general fund to 136,000l., with the prospect of increasing to 300,000l. The addition of 16,000l. to 300,000l. was a matter of comparative unimportance; it would not add largely to the general fund; but, if left untouched, that sum would afford the means of effecting a great national and ecclesiastical object without the possibility of a reasonable complaint from any part of the community, lay or ecclesiastical. If, however, they passed the 12th clause, they would deprive themselves for ever of the possibility of effecting that object, and when they had so deprived themselves of the power, he felt certain they would regret it. This then was a point which he submitted to the right rev. Prelates. He considered this point of the consolidation of the episcopal and common fund to be a matter of deep and vital importance, and he trusted that before the Bill went into Committee, the Government would consider whether they would persevere in pressing a portion of a Bill otherwise desirable and valuable, which, if passed, he felt quite sure (even with the best intentions for the good of the Church) would inflict a permanent injury now, and prevent the possibility of future good.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE

said, that, however desirable might be the object to which reference had been made, he could hold out no hope of the Government departing from the provision which they had introduced for consolidating the two funds.

On Question, Resolved in the Affirmative.

Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday the 25th instant.

House adjourned till To-morrow.