Lords Sitting of 8 August 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Turnpike Acts Continuance, &c. (No. 2); Consolidated Fund Appropriation; Stamp Duties (No. 2); Assessed Taxes Composition; Assizes (Ireland); Marlborough House; National Gallery (Edinburgh); Portland Harbour and Breakwater; Police Superannuation Fund.
2a Grand Jury Cess (Ireland); Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland); Fisheries; Municipal Corporations (Ireland) (No. 2); Registrar of Judgments Office (Ireland).
Reported.—County Court Extension Act Amendment; Fees (Court of Common Pleas) (No. 2); Poor Relief.
3a Excise Sugar and Licences; Engines for Taking Fish (Ireland); Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Borough Gaols; Borough Courts of Record (Ireland); Cruelty to Animals (Scotland).&

SUMMARY JURISDICTION (IRELAND) BILL.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE moved the Second Reading of the Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Bill, which, he said, whilst simplifying the administration of justice, did not alter the principle of the existing law. The Bill repealed wholly or partially several Acts regarding summary jurisdiction in Ireland; and undoubtedly it in some degree extended the power of magistrates, but in certain cases the right of appeal was given. No material alteration, however, being made in the existing law, it was not necessary to call attention to any particular point, especially as he anticipated no serious objection to the measure. The Bill had been prepared with great care; it had been thoroughly sifted and examined by a Committee of the House of Commons, and he hoped their Lordships would agree to it.
LORD MONTEAGLEgave a qualified assent to this Bill, which in many respects was a great improvement on the existing law. It did not, however, embrace all the points on which reform ought to be introduced. The question of trespass was entirely overlooked in it. Besides, it introduced not only a discrepancy between the statute law of England and Ireland, but also a discrepancy in the principles of the common law applicable to both countries. This Bill, for the first time in the history of Ireland, enabled a single magistrate to act in petty sessions. It conferred on a single magistrate all the privileges and all the authority which had hitherto been invested in two or more magistrates at petty sessions; such a provision might be necessary in some parts of Ireland, and for a time, but it ought to be limited to those districts, and to a certain duration, and ought to be considered as made for an exceptional case. As an exceptional case, he would support it. He would not confer on a single magistrate in Ireland power which they would not confer on a single magistrate in England; and he used that expression without intending to cast any slur upon the magistracy of Ireland. He was of opinion that the stipendiary magistrates of that country should not be made its only acting magistrates. This Bill gave to a single magistrate the power of adjudicating corporal punishment on juvenile offenders. Now, such a power could only be justified by the exigency of the
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case, and should be limited to such exigency. He trusted that the defects and omissions which he had pointed out in the Bill would be corrected and supplied in the Committee. If those objections were removed, no one would support the Bill with more alacrity than himself.
The EARL of WICKLOWwas in favour of the Bill, and should be loth to have its passing this Session endangered by the proposal of any Amendments. His noble Friend was, he thought, mistaken in the principal objection which he had urged against the Bill. Under Lord Wellesley's Act, passed in Earl Grey's Administration, a single magistrate was empowered to act in petty sessions. From the circumstances of Ireland, and from its circumstances in every part of it, whether distressed or not, it would be impossible to carry on the petty sessions, if one magistrate could not act by himself. He recommended that a proviso should be introduced into this Bill to this effect, that nothing in the Bill should enable a single magistrate to act in petty sessions, except where he was authorised so to act at present. The Bill would be so beneficial to the administration of justice at the sessions that he hoped it would pass without delay.
After a few words from the Earl of GLENGALL.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that there were various parts of Ireland in which, if the other magistrates did not act, or were unwilling to act, and if this provision enabling a single magistrate to act were not carried, they might as well shut up the doors of all the courts of petty sessions in the country.
After a short explanation by Lord MONTEAGLE,
The EARL of LUCANsaid, this was a most valuable measure; and every one in Ireland ought to be thankful to the Government for it. He quite disagreed with the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) in thinking that one magistrate being empowered to hold petty sessions was an evil; on the contrary, he thought it would be a great benefit. In the unfortunate county with which he was connected, they would frequently not have had a petty sessions at all if there had not been a stipendiary magistrate. Something should be done to let magistrates know that, if they continued in the commission of the peace, they must attend petty sessions. It was the fault of the Government that they had

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not insisted upon the attendance of magistrates before.
Bill read 2a.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
Commons Amendments on the Bill considered; and agreed to as far as Clause 13, with Amendments.
The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURYproposed an Amendment on the 13th clause of the Bill as amended by the Commons. This clause, as it passed the House of Lords, kept the common fund and the episcopal fund apart, but the Amendment of the Commons amalgamated them. The most rev. Prelate suggested, in page 6, line 39, of the Bill as returned from the Commons, to leave out certain words in the clause of the Commons, and to insert the following in their stead:—
"Be it enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act all such moneys as shall not have been applied to the purposes of the said first recited Act, or other episcopal purposes, shall be deemed applicable to the purposes of the common fund mentioned in the said secondly recited Act, and shall from year to year be carried to and form part of such common fund."
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEregretted that he could not concur in the most rev. Prelate's proposition. On the contrary, he perfectly agreed in the Commons Amendment that the joint funds should be made applicable to the wants of the Church at large. If the most rev. Prelate's Motion were adopted, that the episcopal part of the fund should be set aside every year and appropriated to episcopal purposes only, nothing would be left for the promotion of the general efficiency of the Church by the augmentation of small livings.
The EARL of POWISsaid, that their Lordships were now asked to amalgamate two funds which had hitherto been kept separate, and that too with this fact before them, that the Ecclesiastical Commission, to which had been intrusted the duty of forming new dioceses, and providing funds for those who presided over them, had never met once for that purpose since the last Parliament was dissolved, and the present Parliament assembled. What chance then was there, if the Amendment of the Commons were approved of by their Lordships, of the performance of the promise made by the Government relative to the creation of new bishoprics? The common fund was already absorbed, and the mode of distributing it was by annual grant. There were
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only two instances since 1836 of any part of it being invested in land; and those two instances were cases in which two sums of 1,000 l. had been so invested. If these two funds were to be combined, the whole amount would be absorbed in increasing small livings annually; and when they asked for funds to be appropriated to the support of new bishoprics, it would be said that there were no funds, and that would be a just answer. The Amendment of the House of Commons was, in point of fact, neither more nor less than an insidious attempt to prevent the organisation of the Church ever being made more perfect than it was at present, or more adequate to meet the wants of an increasing population.
The BISHOP of OXFORDthought it highly desirable that the funds should be kept separate as heads of account, and then, if in the course of any year Parliament should see fit to institute a new bishoprick, there would be a fund ready to apply to that purpose. He had heard no objection to the Amendment proposed by the most rev. Prelate, and he trusted that the House would agree to it.
EARL GREYobjected to the adoption of a proviso, the effect of which would be indirectly to imply that Parliament was of opinion that an addition should be made to the present number of bishops. He considered that those districts where there was now a want of clerical superintendence—and he knew of many such in his own part of the country—had the first claim on this fund after provision had been made for the existing bishops.
The BISHOP of SALISBURYspoke in favour of his most rev. Friend's proposition.
Their Lordships divided on the Amendment:—Contents 22; Not-Contents 37: Majority 15.

List of the NOT-CONTENTS.

Lord Chancellor

Gosford

DUKES.

Leitrim

Leinster

Minto

Norfolk

Morley

MARQUESSES.

St. Germans

Clanricarde

Scarborough

Donegal

Strafford

Lansdowne

Suffolk

EARLS.

Waldegrave

Besborough

Wicklow

Bruce

BARONS.

Carlisle

Bateman

Chichester

Brougham

Devon

Camoys

Effingham

Dufferin

Granville

Elphinstone

Grey

Eddisbury

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Erskine

Overstone

Foley

Saye and Sele

Monteagle

Wharncliffe.

Montfort

Amendment negative; other Amendments as far as clause 16 agreed to, with Amendments.
On Clause 16 (the Endowment Deans),
The BISHOP of SALISBURY The BISHOP of SALISBURY moved an Amendment, the effect of which was to leave the arrangement of the salaries of the Deans of York, Salisbury, and Hereford, as originally proposed by the Bill. The clause as originally introduced had for its object to remove doubts, not only as to the present but all future deans; but, as altered by the Commons, the doubts which it had been the object to guard against would in future cases necessarily arise. He had therefore prepared an Amendment, the effect of which would be to restore the clause to the state in which it was originally sent down to the Commons. If, however, the noble Marquess would consent to strike a mean between the salaries of the Deans of York, Salisbury, and Hereford, on the one hand, and of Canterbury, Winchester, and Rochester, on the other, he (the Bishop of Salisbury) would not press his Amendment on the House.
After some observations from the Marquess of LANSDOWNE, which were wholly inaudible,
Amendment withdrawn.
Commons Amendment to Clause 16, and the rest of the Commons Amendments, agreed to.
Bill, with Amendments, sent to the Commons.
House adjourned till To-morrow.