Lords Sitting of 4 May 1849

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Viscount Ponsonby. Sat first.—The Lord Berwick, after the Death of his Father.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Freemen's Lands.
3a Cruelty to Animals Prevention.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Falmouth, from Penzance, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws By Earl Delawarr, from Cambridge, for the Restoration of Protection to British Produce.—From Plymouth, and a Number of other Places, against the Navigation Bill.—By Lord Redesdale, from Lyme Regis, for Increasing the Number of Bishops and Clergy.—From Middleton, against any Measure for the Endowment of Roman Catholic Clergy.—From the Lissane and Limerick Unions, for a Modification of the Poor Laws (Ireland) Rate in Aid Bill, and for the Adoption of a System of Emigration.—By the Marquess of Breadalbane, from the Congregations of several Free Churches in Scotland, against Sunday Travelling.—By Lord Monteagle, from Hawarden, Huddersfield, and other Places, against the granting of any New Licenses to Beer Shops—From the Irish Branch of the United Church of England and Ireland, for an Alteration in the Mode of Disposing of the Grants in aid of Education (Ireland).—From Melksham, for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution.—By Earl Grey, from Montreal, for a Repeal of the Navigation Laws.

RAILWAY ACCOUNTS—MR. SAUNDERS.
LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from Charles Alexander Saunders, which he had been requested by that gentleman to present in consequence of some observations which had fallen from him in the course of his speech the other night
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on railway audits. He had mentioned the name of Mr. Saunders, because his name had been prominently brought forward at a public meeting. Mr. Saunders gave a different statement of the transaction to which he (Lord Brougham) had referred, in two important particulars. Mr. Saunders stated that he never was a servant of the South Devon Company; and he (Lord Brougham) had never said that he was so. He had said that Mr. Saunders was the secretary of the Great Western Company. The question turned, not on the shares of the Great Western, but on the shares of the South Devon Company. The only point on which he had any doubt in his statement was, whether he was altogether justified in declaring that the South Devon was an affiliated branch—though he did not use that exact phrase—of the Great Western Company. The Great Western was only connected with the South Devon by holding a great number of its shares, and exercising thereby a preponderating influence over it; and that was the mode in which one company often exercised an influence over another, to the great injury and detriment of the public. The Great Western had purchased a large number of shares of the South Devon, and had paid up the calls upon thorn. Mr. Saunders had also purchased on his own account many shares, but had not paid up the calls. He had purchased what were called "preference shares," for which there was a guarantee of 6 per cent for ten years. The South Devon ceased to pay that interest at the end of the first year, and, as they had broken its bargain with him, Mr. Saunders did not feel called upon to keep his covenant with them. It was not the suggestion of Mr. Saunders, but it was a suggestion made to him in the other House of Parliament by a gentleman who was a Privy Councillor, that the whole transaction was illegal. He took the opinion of an eminent counsel at the Chancery bar, and also at the common law bar, upon the suggestion, and they gave him such strong opinions on the point, that he determined to resist the payment of his calls; and the matter was now sub judice. He (Lord Brougham) had also said, on the authority of Mr. Hutton, that Mr. Saunders had a salary of 3,000 l. a year. It turned out that he had only a salary of 2,000 l. a year. Such were the statements of the petition; and, as he had been the party to bring forward the charges against that gentleman in his place in Parliament, he thought

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it only right that he should give Mr. Saunders's correction of them from the same place. He had been informed by several noble Lords, who had long known Mr. Saunders, that he was a most respectable person, and that anything he said was deserving of credit.
LORD LYNDHURSTbore testimony to the honourable character of Mr. Saunders, and, corroborating the observations which had fallen from Lord Brougham, proceeded to explain the reasons which had induced Mr. Saunders to purchase these preference shares of the South Devon Company. Mr. Saunders had submitted all his proceedings in resisting the payment of the calls on those shares to the directors of the Great Western Company, and those proceedings had met with their general approbation.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that though he had mentioned the name of Mr. Saunders, he had not mentioned the name of the solicitor who had got 190,000 l. of the money of the Great Western Company. He had said that he was a member of a respectable firm, for which he had himself had done business; and a Mr. Hunt, whose name he had not even mentioned, had applied to him personally to state that he was not the party implicated. Certainly Mr. Hunt was not.
The DUKE of CLEVELANDmade some remarks on the conduct of Mr. Saunders towards the South Devon Company. That individual might be able to defend his conduct in a legal point of view, but he could not defend his honesty. The petition which he had just presented would do him more harm than good.
LORDBROUGHAMsaid, he thought the noble Duke was rather hard upon Mr. Saunders. If the noble Duke had proposed to buy a farm, and found there was a bad title, would be not try to get out of his bargain?
THE DUKE of BEAUFORTsaid, that he had been for many years acquainted with Mr. Saunders, who was a man of high honour and character. Some years ago the directors of the Great Western had presented him with a large sum of money and a piece of plate in return for his valuable services to that company.
EARL GRANVILLEonly knew the facts of this case from a communication made to him that morning by a noble Lord, whose statement coincided entirely with that contained in the petition of Mr. Saunders. If that statement were true, no blame could attach to that gentleman. The
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first doubt of the legality of the preference shares was suggested to him by Sir E. Ryan, whilst in conversation beneath the gallery in the House of Commons with Mr. Russell, the chairman of the Great Western. He had himself seen Sir Edward Ryan that morning, and Sir Edward informed him that he perfectly recollected the conversation in question.

REPORTING THE DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
LORD BEAUMONTgave notice that, on Thursday next, he would move the consideration of the Standing Order No. 130, for the purpose of referring it to the Library Committee; he meant the standing order which related to the presence of strangers during the sitting of the House. His own opinion was, that it was very essential to the House that something more accurate should be given to the world as an account of what passed in that House. He had himself been put to great inconvenience by a misrepresentation—no doubt an unintentional misrepresentation—of some proper names, which was not the fault of the persons who attended there for the purpose of giving an account of their Lordships' proceedings, but was owing partly to the malconstruction of the House, and partly to the noise which was made in a part of the House which was not, strictly speaking, within the House—he meant below the bar. As a consequence of this, whatever might be the wish of the reporters to convey to the country an accurate representation of what occurred, they were unable to do so, and great pain had been given to certain private individuals, from their not being furnished with a clear and distinct statement of what had passed. The result had been that such a number of letters had been addressed to those Peers who took part in the debates, as required a great deal of time to be answered.

REBELLION LOSSES BILL (CANADA).
LORD STANLEY: My Lords, I wish to put a question to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the necessity for which has arisen from what I must conceive to be an erroneous report of what has been stated in another place, upon a subject of considerable importance. It has been reported that a statement was there made, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, that, with respect to the Bill

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which is now pending, or rather which has passed the two branches of Legislature in Canada, for granting compensation for losses sustained during the rebellion in that country, and which is now awaiting Her Majesty's assent, to be signified either by the Governor General or by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, no official correspondence whatever, up to the present time, has taken place between Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonial Department and the Governor General of Canada; that the reports of the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly in Canada have not been communicated to Her Majesty's Government; and that no official instructions have been either asked for or given, nor any correspondence taken place on the subject. It has been added—which is a matter, in my mind, of still greater importance—that private letters have passed upon the subject between the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Governor General of Canada, and that this course has been adopted avowedly for the purpose of rendering it impossible that the correspondence should be laid before your Lordships, or come under the cognisance of Parliament. I am perfectly ready to agree, as in other communications of this kind, that Her Majesty's Government have the power to withhold any portion of the correspondence on the ground of its being detrimental to the public service; but if the course has been pursued which I hope to hear denied by the noble Earl, and that the statement of what took place elsewhere was erroneous—if, I say, the whole of the correspondence, with the opinions of the Governor General, and the directions of the Secretary of State for the Colonies upon a matter which deeply affects imperial interests—if these have been studiously confined to private correspondence, and no official correspondence has taken place—if, consequently, that private correspondence is the private property of the Secretary of State, and, when he leaves the office he now holds, will be removed by him from the public records; or if it be of such a character that at no time it is capable of being produced—then, my Lords, in such case, if that system be suffered to prevail, Ministerial responsibility is at an end, and the control of Parliament is absolutely ousted over any proceedings which Her Majesty's Ministers may think fit to adopt with relation to our colonial interests. Nay, more, the
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successor of the noble Earl, whenever the noble Earl shall quit office, who will have to carry on the affairs of Canada, finding, perhaps, that this question has led to ulterior consequences, will have no record before him by which he may understand the intentions and advice of his predecessor, or the nature of the information and instructions given to the Governor General, by which he may be influenced in guiding his own course in measures which may have resulted from this. I hope to hear from the noble Earl, not that he is ready to produce that correspondence, but that there is one which will remain in the office, and which, at some time, may be produced, if necessary, in order to throw light upon the course pursued by Her Majesty's Government in this matter. I have felt it my duty to call attention to this case, for the purpose of marking, as I think your Lordships will do, your opinion of the irregularity and inexpediency of such a course of proceeding for the future, if it has been adopted upon the present occasion. The questions which I wish to put to the noble Earl are—first, whether any official correspondence has taken place upon this important subject between himself and the Governor General of Canada? and, in the next place, whether the whole and sole responsibility of assenting to, or refusing to, sanction the Bill, is intended by Her Majesty's Government to be cast upon the shoulders of the Earl of Elgin? and, thirdly, whether, acting upon the part of the Crown, the Secretary of State has felt it his duty to instruct the Governor General of Canada as to the course he was to take on behalf of the Crown?
EARL GREY: In reply to the questions put to me by the noble Lord, I have to inform your Lordships that no official correspondence has taken place upon the subject referred to by him. I have further to inform your Lordships that the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly are not yet in the possession of the Colonial Office. It has never been the practice that the votes and proceedings of the colonial legislatures should be sent from any of the colonies enclosed to the Secretary of State. We have accounts in the local newspapers; but formal reports of these proceedings have never usually been in the possession of the Secretary of State for the Colonies until the close of the session of the colonial legislatures. Some time since this inconvenience attracted my notice, and I wrote a circular to the Governors of the principal

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colonies, directing that by every mail the votes and proceedings of the legislative assemblies should be transmitted to the Secretary of State. But with respect to the correspondence on this subject, I must further add, that the private letters which have passed between myself and the Earl of Elgin are confined, so far as they relate to this subject, to the expression of his opinion that it was his duty to decide upon his own responsibility, when this Bill should be tendered to him, whether he would accept it or reject it, or whether he would reserve it for the sanction of Her Majesty's Government; leaving it to them, when he had acted in accordance with his constitutional duty, to determine whether the decision to which he should so have come should be approved by Her Majesty in Council or otherwise. It will rest with Her Majesty in Council ultimately to determine whether this Bill is to come in force or not; but the Governor General has stated to me, that he thought it inexpedient, until he was called upon to take some measure on the subject—until he was called upon to act in the matter, that he should make any report whatever upon it, because he conceived it to be inexpedient that it should be known in the colony what would be the course which he should ultimately think it right to take. The Act which had been passed through the two branches of the legislature, had not, at the date of the last advices, been tendered to him for his assent; and, upon inquiry, I find that it is the usual practice of the legislature in Canada, as of most others, not to tender any public Act to the Governor, for his acceptance or refusal, until the close of the session, unless there existed some special reason for bringing the Act into early operation. The present Bill has not yet been laid before the Governor General; he has not decided; and not having decided—not having taken any public step upon that subject, he said that he did not conceive the time was come when he could with propriety or advantage to the public service make any official report upon it. I have further to state, that I have given Lord Elgin, neither publicly nor privately, any directions or instructions with respect to the course he is to pursue. I have abstained from doing so deliberately and advisedly, because, in my opinion, it is absolutely impossible that the affairs of the colonies can be administered with advantage, if the Secretary of State interferes more with the discretion of the Governor
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than is absolutely necessary. The more experience I have of colonial affairs, the more persuaded I am that the true secret of satisfactory management of our colonies is to choose the best men that can be found for governors, and having got such governors, to give to them a large and wide discretion, and a generous trusting support, and never to believe that they have acted wrong, unless there is some strong evidence to that effect. In pursuance of that opinion, I have advisedly and deliberately abstained from giving the Governor General of Canada any instructions with respect to the course he is to pursue on this subject. I have further to say, that if I should leave the office I hold next week, the official correspondence left in the records of the office will leave to my successor all the means which can be necessary for forming his judgment upon any measure which he may be called upon to adopt. Of course, I adhere to the practice—which has been the practice of all my predecessors—of corresponding privately, as well as officially, with the governors of Her Majesty's colonies. It is important that I should know, not only what they have done, but what are their private opinions upon the various subjects which may come under their notice. It is more especially necessary in cases where the governors are private friends, that I should have their full and unreserved opinion upon passing events both at home and abroad. These letters I shall continue to write and to receive; but, most undoubtedly, I think, as the noble Lord thinks, that it would be departing from my duty, and the governors of the colonies would be equally departing from theirs, if the official correspondence which may remain in the records of the office does not contain what it ought to contain—namely, the fullest information with respect to all the facts and occurrences which take place in those colonies, and upon which the Secretary of State for the time being, wherever he may be, may be called upon to decide. I have reason to believe that I have carried almost farther than most of my predecessors the principle of taking care that every instruction and every important statement of facts should be contained in official despatches, and not be confined to private letters.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, it was very important—not that incidental communications between one man and another should be perused in order to their being

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laid before Parliament, but that communications on public business from colonial governors to the Secretary of State should be preserved for the use of Parliament. He had been greatly relieved from his anxiety on this point by the statement which the noble Lord had just made. He understood that an old and valued friend of his had stated elsewhere that Lord Elgin had omitted to mention certain matters of great public importance in his despatches, lest those matters should be brought before Parliament, but that he had noticed them in his private correspondence with the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies. But nothing could be more incorrect, more groundless, than the doctrine that because a thing is mentioned in a despatch, Parliament must be made acquainted with it. Many things might be mentioned in a despatch which it would be highly improper to lay before Parliament; and even in times of the strongest opposition to a Government, Parliament never had the least difficulty in acceding to the proposition that a despatch should not be made public if any Minister thought its publication would be inconsistent with the public service. Nothing, therefore, could be more absurd than the idea that things which it might not be convenient to lay before the public, could not be put in despatches lest they should be called for by Parliament; for despatches had been called for and refused at all times. He agreed with the noble Earl that the best way of governing a colony was to take great care, in the first instance, to choose fit and proper persons, and having made a selection, to give them entire confidence, and to lend them an unhesitating and generous support, until they were clearly proved to be in the wrong. That was the rule by which he (Lord Brougham) had always been guided as a Minister. He doubted very much, on the other hand, whether a governor should be so left to himself as that he might act entirely on his own responsibility: while there might be no ground for fettering his discretion, it might be necessary to give advice and suggestions, and even directions, for the right management of colonial affairs. It was highly satisfactory, however, to know that there was no foundation whatever for the statement made elsewhere, that Lord Elgin had omitted certain matters from his despatches lest Parliament might be made acquainted with them.

OUTDOOR RELIEF (IRELAND).
The EARL of ROSSEmoved for the production of certain correspondence which had recently passed between the Poor Law Commissioners and the boards of guardians in Ireland as to the expediency of giving or withholding outdoor relief. He did not expect that his Motion would meet with any opposition from Her Majesty's Government; but he nevertheless thought that some little explanation was necessary, as otherwise his object might not be obtained. The correspondence between the Poor Law Commissioners and the different hoards of guardians was so voluminous that he felt great difficulty in so wording his Motion as to procure the production of all the information which he wanted. He was particularly anxious to obtain that portion of the correspondence which took place during the last five or six months. He understood, that in the unions of Ballinasloe and Dungarvan, the system of outdoor relief had to a considerable extent been enforced; and he had carefully examined the evidence of Mr. Power, given before a Committee of their Lordships, with a view to seeing what his opinions were upon the question to which he was now addressing himself; he regretted, however, to find that the evidence of Mr. Power was not so clear and satisfactory as might be expected from a gentleman of his experience and ability. Mr. Power, it seemed, had been asked how it happened, that in some unions the poor never received outdoor relief; and it would be collected from his evidence, that wherever the poor-law was well administered, they had not found outdoor relief to be necessary; but, wherever the law was ill administered, outdoor relief became indispensable. Now, their Lordships could not fail to see that a good deal of importance might he considered to attach to the subject which he desired to bring under their notice, and therefore did he feel most anxious to obtain any documents or correspondence which would throw light upon the proceedings of the Poor Law Commissioners, and the several boards of guardians. Whatever the conclusions might he at which their Lordships would arrive after seeing the correspondence for which he was about to move, one position was perfectly clear, that wherever there was least outdoor relief, there the amount of industry and prosperity amongst the population would be the greatest. He might mention the circumstances of that union with which he himself was best acquainted—the union

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or electoral division of Parsonstown; there I no outdoor relief was administered, and the rate was 3s. 9d. in the pound, while in the union of Tullamore the rate was much higher, and the practice of outdoor relief most extensive. For this dissimilarity no good reason could be assigned, at least none founded in any material difference between the one district and the other, for they adjoined each other; they had much in common, and he saw no ground for I thinking that the poor-law might not be similarly administered in both places. Besides the other information which he desired to obtain, he wished to know the; amount of increased expense incurred in the building of additional workhouses.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that Her Majesty's Ministers had not the slightest objection to produce every possible information on the matters to which the noble Earl had referred. But he thought it would be desirable that the noble Earl should limit his Motion to the correspondence which had taken place during the last twelve months.
The EARL of ROSSEsaid, it would perhaps be better that the correspondence which had taken place during the last six months should be produced in the first instance; the rest might afterwards he made to follow.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEsaid, that the only desire of the Government was to produce the correspondence in the mode and at the period that would I prove most convenient. With respect to the case of the union of Ballinasloe to which the noble Earl had referred, he wished to observe that as the recipients of relief in that union exceeded 4,000, it was very possible that proper workhouse accommodation could not be found for them all. He confessed he was strongly in favour of the principle of confining relief within the workhouse; but, under the immediate pressure which existed in Ireland, and which he hoped would be but temporary, it was necessary that poor-law guardians should be empowered to extend the relief to outdoor recipients. The papers which the noble Earl moved for should be produced with as much despatch as possible, and as copiously and satisfactorily as the subject required.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that two questions of great importance were involved in the proposition of the noble Earl. One was the application of outdoor relief in times of pressure, and an-
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other was the administration of the poor-law by means of vice-guardians, It appeared to him that the adoption of the principle of outdoor relief was a most dangerous one, generally speaking; and he wished to protest most strongly against the supposition or the principle that it might or ought to be safely adopted on the score of economy. Higher questions than those of mere money were involved in that consideration. Some had advocated the principle of outdoor relief, because, as they said, they could afford a relief at a cost of 2s., which would cost 5s. in a workhouse; but, for his part, he confessed that, as a landlord, he would prefer a greater expense on a system of indoor relief, to a lesser on a system of outdoor relief, because he considered the practical social effects of the latter would be to strike at the root of industry, open the door to frauds, and render the administration of the poor-law almost impossible.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned to Monday.