Lords Sitting of 30 March 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1o Society for the Prosecution of Felons (Distribution of Funds); Prisoners' Removal (Ireland); Independence of Parliament.
2o Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; Indemnity.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Stanley, from Magherafelt, against the Proposed Rate in Aid (Ireland), and for the Adoption of a System of Emigration.—From Brinfield and Ashford Bowdler, for the Adoption of Measures for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution.

RELIEF TO POLISH EXILES.
The EARL of HARROWBYobserved, that as an inquiry had been made by order of the House into a subject which he really thought was not worthy of its dignity—he meant an inquiry into the health

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of those Polish refugees who had received the public benevolence—he hoped that he should not he considered as intruding unsuitably upon their Lordships' time if he now asked his noble Friend opposite whether the insinuations which had been thrown out to the disadvantage of those unfortunate individuals were or were not well founded? Were the Polish refugees men so utterly dissolute and profligate as to be unworthy of the sympathy and assistance of the public? Whatever truth there might be in the insinuation that they had acted elsewhere as disturbers of the peace, they certainly had not acted here as such; and he believed, that in private life their morality had over been exemplary.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas happy in being able to give an answer to the noble Earl, and that, too, in a manner which would be equally satisfactory to his Lordship and to the public. After what had passed in their Lordships' House on a former occasion, he had felt it to be his duty to procure as soon as possible a return of the number of Polish refugees receiving relief from the public funds; and, having procured that return, he had taken such measures as he could to inform himself how far the disease, which had been erroneously supposed to prevail among them, really existed. He could state most distinctly, without descending into particulars, which must be disgusting to their Lordships, that the return of the two medical officers who had charge of those persons when they were the victims of disease, afforded the most conclusive proof that scarcely the slightest imputation of the disease said to prevail among them attached to their characters. One of those medical officers reported, that for one whole year no disease of that kind appeared among them; and the other reported, that in another year it had occurred among them, but in a less degree than it usually occurred among the same number of Englishmen in the same class of life with those unhappy exiles. He considered these returns to afford convincing proof of the general morality and good conduct of the Poles in this country.

BILL FOR SECURING THE TRUE INDEPENDENCE OF PARLIAMENT.
LORD BROUGHAMrose for the purpose of laying upon the table a Bill upon a subject which he thought would have been better taken up in the House of Commons
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—he meant a Bill for better securing the true independence of Parliament, by extending Mr. John Smith's Act, commonly called the 52nd of Geo. III, to all insolvent Members, which now only applied to such as were traders. He had hoped that a measure of this kind would have been made, as indeed it ought to have been made, a Government measure. However, as there appeared to be an objection to that course, he would, in case no Member of the Government took the measure up, proceed with the Bill himself, although he would rather surrender it into the hands of Government. What he had expected to take place in the House of Commons on this subject had actually taken place. A Bill had been brought in upon it two months ago. From respect to the individual who introduced it, and to the House in which it was introduced, he would make no comments upon the manner in which that Bill had been dealt with in another place. This, however, he might be permitted to remark—that it had been so treated, that if it had passed in the same shape as it was passed in the Committee, it would not have recommended itself much to their Lordships; for it was neither more nor less than a Bill for the better recovery of debts from such persons as happened to be Members of Parliament. He was, as were also many Peers who then heard him, a Member of the Committee now sitting on the Bankruptcy Laws; but they would all of them have been much surprised, if, in addition to the 375 articles already referred to them, they had found another article of the digest which placed Members of Parliament in a worse situation than any other members of society. On no account ought the Legislature to say that debts were to be recovered against Members of Parliament either in a worse way, or in a better way, or even in a different way, from that in which they were recovered against other men. His Bill was founded on the principle that the same process should be used in all cases; and only the power of continuing in Parliament, clothed with privileges and refusing to obey the laws, should be taken away. He did not mean in any way to deal with Peers of Parliament in this Bill, for Mr. John Smith's Act made no provision for the case of Peers who might unfortunately become bankrupts, and who sat in that House upon a very different tenure from that upon which Members of Parliament

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held their scats in the other House. If a constituency chose to he represented by a solvent rather than an insolvent man, Mr. John Smith's Act permitted it to be so represented; for the loss of a Member's qualification was, as everybody knew, not in practice a shutting of the doors of the House of Commons to an insolvent. It was a fault in Mr. Smith's Act that it permitted a bankrupt Member to remain a representative of the people so long as twelve months after his bankruptcy, although it would not permit him to take his scat in the House. But it was one of the greatest scandals and stigmas on the privilege of Parliament which existed in the law of privilege at this moment; and he hoped that we were now fast approaching the period, ay, and even the very day, when that scandal and that stigma would be put an end to. He trusted that it would not be long before we remedied the evil system by which those who had broken the law, and were under the ban of the law, were permitted to make the law. He now moved that this Bill be read a first time; but he should postpone the second reading of it until he saw what became of the similar Bill which was now under consideration in the House of Commons.
Bill read 1a.

THE WAR IN THE NORTH OF ITALY.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, with regard to the question put to him by the noble Earl yesterday, whether he could promise to lay the papers moved for by the noble Earl on the table before Easter, he had to state that it was not in his power to say now when those papers could be laid before their Lordships, because events of a very important character were now going on, and he did not yet know how they might affect the part hitherto taken by this country. Negotiations of a very important character had already commenced. The communications received yesterday had acquired a deeper importance from the nature of the intelligence received that (Friday) afternoon (also by telegraphic despatch), which he must consider of a most satisfactory character. He had hoard that at present the new King of Sardinia had concluded an armistice with the commander of the Austrian forces; that the armistice had been concluded with a view to further negotiation; and that an agreement had been entered
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into by which the Duchy of Savoy ceased to be occupied by the Austrian troops, whilst the important fortresses on the frontier were to be jointly garrisoned by Austrian and Piedmontese troops. The plenipotentiaries had been appointed to conduct the future negotiations, which he hoped would lead to a permanent peace, and preclude the danger of the tranquillity of Europe for the future being further threatened. This being the case, it was not expedient that these papers should be immediately laid upon the table. They were in the course of preparation, and as soon as it was clear what course the negotiations might take, not only with regard to this country, but also to the other countries of Europe, the papers would be laid before their Lordships.
The EARL of ABERDEENinquired whether be was to understand that in these negotiations the representatives of this country were taking part; otherwise, he conceived if it was a mere matter between Austria and Sardinia, there could be no reason why the production of the papers should be delayed. He was happy to hear the intelligence stated by the noble Marquess, of the armistice having been concluded; and he (the Earl of Aberdeen) saw in that intelligence but another proof of the magnanimous conduct of the Austrian commander, Marshal Radetzky, who, by his recent brilliant successes, had fulfilled the high anticipations which his talents and admirable character had led him to entertain. He sincerely trusted that this armistice, so promptly agreed upon, and the negotiations now reported to be going on, would terminate in the establishment of a permanent peace.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEexplained that he had not stated that this country was a party to the negotiations now going on, because he had no information on the subject. His information depended entirely on a telegraphic despatch, and certainly contained nothing to show that the representatives of this country had been concerned in these negotiations. If the negotiations were merely between the Governments of Austria and Sardinia, and this country had not been requested to take any part in them, these circumstances would certainly not interfere to prevent the production of papers; but of this fact they ought first to be informed, before the papers were laid upon the table.
The EARL of MALMESBURYasked if they were to understand that Turin had

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not been entered by the Austrian general, in consequence of these negotiations?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEbelieved it had not been so entered; but he would not say that it was not in the power of Marshal Radetzky to enter Turin. He had only received a telegraphic despatch, and therefore was not able to speak positively as to that.
LORD BROUGHAMremarked that it was Trino, and not Torino (Turin). There had been a confusion between the two names.
House adjourned to Monday.