Lords Sitting of 19 March 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Outdoor Paupers.
5a Overseers (Cities and Boroughs).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Whitstable, for Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—From Coleraine, against the proposed Rate in Aid of Distressed Unions (Ireland).—From Cornwall, for the Adoption of Measures for the Relief of the Agricultural Classes.

TRANSPORTATION TO THE CAPE.
LORD STANLEYrose to put a question to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Grey), of which he had given him notice. He had understood the noble Earl on a former occasion to have said that instructions had been issued for sending out convicts to the Cape of Good Hope, and that, although those orders had given general dissatisfaction in the colony, the Government felt it their duty to persevere. He wished to ask the noble Earl whether any despatches had been received by the Colonial Office on the subject, and whether he would have any objection to lay on the table the correspondence which had taken place between the Government of the Cape and the Government at home; and also a memorial which had been presented from the Cape, and which, he believed, had been received by the noble Earl?
EARL GREYsaid, that when this subject was last before their Lordships he had not received any official information from the Cape, although he was made aware, by the newspapers, that a feeling of dissatisfaction had been expressed on the part of the colony. Since that time he had received a despatch from the Governor of the Cape, with a memorial to which the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had alluded; the latter expressing dissatisfaction at the instructions which had been issued. He should have no objection to produce the correspondence.

THE POLISH REFUGEES.
The EARL of EGLINTONsaid, that in moving for the return of which he had given notice, and in asking the question which he was about to put to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne), he felt that he was rather trenching on that nice ground of money which was held to be so particularly the province of another assembly; but he trusted that their Lordships would forgive him for calling their attention to what he considered an improper application of the funds of the State—namely, the allowance (which

949
was stated in the Miscellaneous Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1849), of the sum of 7,800 l for the subsistence of Polish refugees, and for medical expenses incurred by them. He saw in the Miscellaneous Estimates charges for other foreigners—Spanish refugees, Toulonese, Corsican emigrants, and American loyalists—and, he thought, one or two other classes of persons who were the recipients of sums from our national funds, but to a much smaller extent. Though in their case he should much rather see the money saved, yet in every instance it was expressly stated that the grant was for military services rendered to this country, or for losses sustained in the service of this country. The Poles alone were a favoured race. Not only did the Poles receive a large sum from us for doing nothing, but there was a sum for medical attendance regularly paid for them in London and Portsmouth; and also a sum for the medicine supplied to them. He would not more particularly allude to the diseases for which the services of this medical treatment might be required, than by saying that he believed, when the return for which he moved was placed before their Lordships, they would see that a large portion of these diseases were such as he would not name in their Lordships' House; and for the cure of which it would ill become this nation to contribute. If this country were rolling in wealth—if our Exchequer were overflowing—if our agriculturists were content—then it might be very laudable to extend our charity to these distressed foreigners. On the same plan on which we spent millions to put an end to the slave trade, though at the same time we encouraged it by buying slave-grown sugar, and allowing the Irish to purchase arms, which afterwards we were compelled to take out of their hands, it might be wise to give these persons the money by which they could incur disease, and then to pay for curing them. And this was to be done at a time when our Exchequer was empty, and our agriculturists starving. Now, the Government was retrenching the expenditure of the country to a degree which, if they were private individuals, would bring upon them tradesmen's bills to an alarming extent. We were now so saving that the yeomanry could not be drilled this year. He had served in that useful force, and he must say that it was useless to give a man a sword or a carbine unless he was drilled
950
to the use of it. In the midst of all this rigid economy, they still found the Polish refugees receiving a large amount of assistance. There were, no doubt, many of that nation who were deserving of our admiration and worthy of our sympathy; but nevertheless it was too true that a great many of the Polish refugees were lawless and turbulent. Whether behind the barricades in Paris, or engaged in the rebellion in Hungary, or the insurrection in Vienna, the Poles were always found revelling in scenes of violence and anarchy. In the present state of our revenue, he must protest against the people of this country—taxed as they already were to an amount which they could hardly bear—being called upon to contribute to the assistance of foreigners who had no claim upon us. Perhaps the noble Marquess would inform the House whether this allowance would be continued for the future? The noble Earl concluded by moving for a return of the number of Polish Refugees receiving allowances for subsistence and medical expenses from the 28th March, 1848, to the 26th March, 1849, specifying the amount received, and the nature of disease in the treatment of which such medical expenses were incurred.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that, as far as the Motion of the noble Earl related to financial returns, there could be no objection to it, neither was there any occasion for the noble Earl to have apologised for moving for them, because he was only exercising an undoubted privilege in doing so. As to the manner in which the money had been applied, and the observations with which the noble Earl had followed his Motion, he had, however, a few observations to make. He was not prepared to say that such was the poverty existing in this country at this moment (although he admitted that some distress prevailed among the agricultural classes), as to render it necessary that we should depart from the principle of extending our sympathies with a liberal hand to those who had been the objects of charity from the other Governments of Europe, and who had also received it in this country from all previous Administrations; still less should he be inclined to concur in that part of the noble Earl's Motion which would have a tendency to wound the minds of individuals. The noble Earl called for the names—
The EARL of EGLINTON: No; the numbers.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: The noble Earl called for an account of particular diseases under which individuals had laboured. He objected to such a return, because it could only he intended to convey an impression unfavourable to those unfortunate people who had received the bounty of this country.
The EARL of EGLINTONwished to ascertain the character of the diseases generally, but he did not wish to know who had suffered from particular diseases.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas glad to hear that; but he still objected to that part of the Motion. The Polish refugees were driven from their country by a great misfortune, arising out of the destruction of a great national existence; but the merits of the question he would not go then into, for he did not look upon the subject in the spirit of party. Amongst those Polish refugees were men of noble lineage, of unblemished character, of undoubted worth; and when the noble Earl spoke of instances in which Poles had taken part with insurgents elsewhere, it would have served his purpose better if he could have furnished instances of their having misbehaved themselves in this country. That, however, was not the case, and, so far as the authorities went, the argument applied the other way; for it had been proved that they were not inclined to take part in any disturbances. The very effect of this bounty had been to prevent their so engaging themselves; for it had been a rule that if persons receiving any portion of it left this country, they lost all future claim to it. But because there were Poles who had taken part in insurrections in other countries, were we to withhold relief from those who had not misconducted themselves here? He had had occasion to know many Poles residing in this country who were persons of integrity and honour; and he did not think that the Polish refugees had in any degree forfeited that bounty which it had been the feeling of Parliament for a great many years to bestow upon them. The subject had been attentively investigated, and the greatest care would be taken in the administration of the funds.
LORD STANLEYdid not wish to impede the flow of public charity to the unfortunate, nor did he mean to deny that many of the refugee Poles were men of high character, honour, and ability. He did not understand his noble Friend intended in the smallest degree to interfere
952
with the just application of the funds voted for their relief; what he understood his noble Friend to say was, that he considered it to be incumbent on the Government and the country—though the noble Marquess denied that distress was general here, yet admitting the country was not in a prosperous state—he thought it was therefore a duty incumbent on the Government to see that they were not exposing the people to contribute to a charitable fund without taking care that proper checks on its due expenditure were applied. His noble Friend alleged that assistance was given to a considerable extent—not in the shape of money to relieve distress, but in the shape of medical relief for cases of disease, not arising from distress and poverty, but from vice and profligacy. That was what his noble Friend had said. In his opinion there could be no grosser misapplication of the public funds, than to find they were applied to defray medical assistance in cases arising from vice—his noble Friend, no doubt, spoke from sufficient knowledge of the fact—and not from distress. This country readily granted the application for medical charity; but this assistance ceased to be charity the moment it was perverted to purposes of profligacy. After the assurance just given by the noble Marquess that the case had undergone investigation, and that everything would be done to check lavish and improper expenditure, he would advise his noble Friend, who had not the least idea of stigmatising any one by name, not to press his Motion, but to rest satisfied with the assurance of Her Majesty's Government that due care shall be taken in the administration of the funds.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to repeat his declaration that care was used, and should continue to be used, in this case.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYconsidered the House was indebted to his noble Friend for bringing forward the subject. He considered care should be taken that no new names be added to the present list. In the case of the Spanish refugees, he knew that a good deal of abuse in the administration of the funds existed, and that individuals were thrown on the fund who were a disgrace to their own and to any country. He hoped Government would take care that the public money was not given improperly and injudiciously to foreigners who came to this country.
The EARL of EGLINTONwould not

953
press his Motion. He begged, however, to assure the House, that nothing was further from his intention than to individualise any one. He wished to prevent the funds of the State from being applied in future—as he had reason to believe they had been applied—to improper cases. No one had a greater admiration for the high and honourable character of individuals of the Polish nation than himself.
Returns, as amended, ordered to be laid before the House.
House adjourned till To-morrow.