Lords Sitting of 31 July 1849

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Monteagle, from Marylebone, that Measures may be taken to Recognise the Independence of Hungary.—By Lord Brougham, from Rochester and Chatham, that a Demand may be made on the Brazilian and Spanish Governments for the Liberation of all Slaves.—From the Dublin Traders Protective Society, against the Attachments, Courts of Record (Ireland) Bill.

THE THANKS OF THE HOUSE TO THE ARMY IN INDIA.
The LORD SPEAKER The LORD SPEAKER acquainted the House, That the Lord Chancellor had received the following Letter from the Earl of Dalhousie, in return to the Thanks of this House communicated to him by the Lord Chancellor, in obedience to an Order of this House of the 24th of April last:—
"Simla, 14th June, 1849.
"My Lord—I have had the Honour of receiving Your Lordship's Letter of 25th April, inclosing the Resolutions which on the preceding Day had been adopted by the House of Lords.
"In obedience to their Lordships' Request, I have communicated those Resolutions to General Lord Gough, G.C.B., and to the several Officers referred to therein.
"On my own Part, I beg Permission to express the Gratitude and Pride with which I have received this distinguished Mark of their Lordships' Approbation.—I have the Honour to be. My Lord, Your Lordship's Obedient and faithful Servant, "DALHOUSIE.
"The Right Hon. the Lord Chancellor, &c."
The same being read, was Ordered to lie on the Table, and to be entered on the Journals.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.
LORD LYTTELTONinquired whether in the case of schools connected with the British and Foreign School Society, the Wesleyan Methodists, and the Free Kirk of Scotland, the conditions which had been agreed on between the Committee of the Privy Council and certain bodies representing those religious communities, would be equally compulsory with those which had been imposed on the Church of England schools?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied that what were called the "Management Clauses" adopted and enforced by the Committee of Education, were enforced alike with respect to schools in connexion with all classes of Dissenters equally with those in connexion with the Church of England. He was glad to say that a perfect understanding existed between the Committee of Education and the Church of England and the various dissenting bodies on this subject.

THE COLLISION AT DOLLY'S BRAE (IRELAND).
The EARL of RODENrose for the purpose of making some explanation with respect to certain charges which had been made against him, in respect of his conduct in connexion with the recent collision in the north of Ireland. The noble Earl stated that nothing could be more irksome
1130
to him than trespassing for any time upon there Lordships' attention, more especially upon a subject personal to himself. Circumstances, however, might arise which, would make it incumbent upon any Member of their Lordships' House to take the opportunity afforded by his privilege in the House to remove any wrong impressions which might have arisen in the public mind from circumstances which had occurred elsewhere. He had been most anxious, after the events which had recently taken place in the north of Ireland, to appear among their Lordships, and should have done so before, had he not been detained in Ireland until Friday last by severe indisposition, which prevented his leaving home. The circumstances to which he would briefly refer, and which were no doubt present to the minds of their Lordships, took place in the north of Ireland, on the 12th of July of the present year. Upon that day there occurred an unhappy collision between two parties in that country, and in his own immediate neighbourhood, and which, in spite of any contradiction, he would maintain that he had endeavoured to do all he could to prevent; and he would further maintain that there was no individual in that country, or in any part of the kingdom, who more sincerely lamented the occurrence than himself. Observations had, however, been made elsewhere, of which he thought he had just reason to complain, inasmuch as they had referred personally to himself, and had tended to place him in a light in which he should be exceedingly sorry to remain, especially in the minds of their Lordships, whose opinions he so highly esteemed. With reference to these circumstances he found in one of the public papers (the Morning Chronicle), that it was reported to have been stated within the walls of Parliament, that with respect to those unhappy deaths which had taken place in the county of Down, that he "Lord Roden was the author of them." The report further stated:—
"What were the facts of the case? That Lord Roden, the late Grand Master of the Orangemen of that province, invited 1,500 men to enter his domain on the 12th July, armed to the teeth, dressed in all the gaudy colours which Orangemen were upon their bloody anniversary; that he prepared a banquet for them; that he appeared among them in the dress of an Orangeman; that he read extracts from the Holy Bible to them; that he regaled them with beer, porter, and whisky; and, after all that had occurred, that they were to go to a place called Dolly's-brae, choosing a circuitous route, and a bad road, because the immediate

1131
district about Dolly's-brae was notoriously inhabited by Roman Catholics; that, not satisfied with spending the day in triumph, with shouts and songs and toasts of Boyne Water, when they became inebriated they determined to go to the very houses of their neighbours to insult them,"
It was also reported to have been said that he attended and presided over the arrangements, that he purchased thirty barrels of ale for the occasion, and that at the conclusion of a rambling speech, he recommended them to retire peaceably, but if insulted to oppose force by force. He was anxious, in order to remove these charges, to state as briefly as he could what were the real facts of the ease from the beginning to the end of the transaction, leaving their Lordships and the country to determine whether such charges were fairly made or not. He would not retort by any severe remarks upon those individuals who had brought forward such charges against him; he felt convinced that if there existed in their minds a spark of generosity, they must feel, now that they knew the real facts of the case, much to regret. During the year 1845 the Processions Act expired in Ireland. The people of Ireland were extremely attached to these processions, and the great mass of the humbler classes in Ireland had been with difficulty restrained from them even when the Act was in existence. He would also remind their Lordships, that in 1848 the spirit of rebellion was very widely spread through the southern and western portions of the kingdom, and great exertions were made on the part of the Government, and the noble Lord the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which were happily successful, to put down that rebellion. The great cry of those who were engaged in this rebellion was—" The Repeal of the Union"—this was the great "Shibboleth" of the party. It was strongly felt by the loyal people of Ireland, that there was a very large mass, not only of the higher but of the humbler classes of society, who were opposed to this cry, and who were anxious to put down the rebellion. In order to allow that feeling to be made known, arrangements were made for these parties meeting together upon the 12th of July, 1848. He confessed that he did not discourage that meeting, as he felt it was important that they should show to the country that there were large masses of loyal men who were opposed to "Repeal," and who were anxious to stand by the Government in the support of the Queen, and in defence of the liberties of the country. The
1132
tenor of the speeches made in Conciliation-hall was to the effect that no exertions should be spared to gain over the Orangemen to their ranks, and that if they could only succeed in their efforts, they would be able to carry repeal in spite of the 40,000 troops which the Government might send over to the country. The great numbers of men who assembled last year showed very clearly that any such attempt to win over the Orangemen would be vain and fruitless. About a fortnight before the 12th of July of the present year, he was waited upon by a gentleman who was the great leader of the Orangemen in that part of the country in which he (the Earl of Roden) resided, who informed him the Orangemen were desirous of paying him a visit upon the 12th of July, in order to testify their affection and attachment to him personally. He (the Earl of Roden) informed him that the visit would be unsatisfactory to him at his then advanced period of life and his infirm state of health; that those things which he once entered into, and which he once enjoyed, he did not then enjoy; and that he thought it would be much better if they would not carry their design of visiting him into execution: he also stated, that in consequence of one of the members of his family being in a very delicate state of health, the noise of such an assembly congregated together would, in all probability, be attended with injurious effects. The answer which he received to those observations was, that if the Orangemen were disappointed in their expectations of visiting him at his house, they would go to a field near it. Upon this he (the Earl of Roden) stated that he would take a couple of days to consider his decision. At the expiration of that period, he stated that he felt a pride in thinking that so many of his fellow-countrymen in the humbler class of life were anxious, at great inconvenience to themselves, to manifest such a feeling of attachment towards him; that he would not invite them; that he thought they would be much safer within the gates of his park than in Castlewellan; and that all he could say upon the subject was, that upon the 12th of July he would not shut his gates to any loyal men who might wish to enter. Upon their arrival at his gates, to the number of about 2,000, exclusive of women and children, he went out to meet them, and when opposite his own door, he had the opportunity of acknowledging their kindness for the proof they had given him

1133
of their attachment; and the whole assembly, at his request, passed by his house in so orderly and quiet a manner that no disturbance arose to the member of his family then confined in the sick chamber. Among the number of persons who were present, he could not but confess that he saw some of them armed; he sincerely regretted it, but until they came up to his door he did not know that any one of them was armed; but he certainly was not aware that the fact of their carrying arms made them an illegal assemblage. He thought that it could not be an illegal assemblage, because upon the 12th of July in the last year to which he had referred, when so many persons assembled together to support and uphold the legislative Union, and upon the 17th of March, when the procession of the Ribbonmen took place, upon both of which occasions great numbers of the parties were armed, and when, in fact, they fired a volley over his gate, no interference whatever took place on the part of the Government. With respect to the statement of the people being "armed to the teeth," all he could say was, that out of the two thousand and upwards who were present, he did not see more than three hundred or four hundred with arms in their hands. Those persons who had arms came from that part of the country where they expected to be attacked; but he believed that amongst all the assemblages of Orangemen in Ireland on that day, there was no instance of arms being carried, so far as he could collect from the information he had received. The procession passed by his door, and went to a field at the end of the park. Whatever difficulties they might encounter—whatever dangers they might incur—he felt it was the duty of the gentry of the country, holding the same opinions, to go with them, in order to preserve them from committing any acts of indiscretion. There was a platform erected, from which some gentlemen were anxious to address the people, and he was most anxious to have an opportunity of speaking with the people, whose principles he held out as his own, on that occasion. It was said they were feasted and furnished by Lord Roden with beer and porter, and made inebriate, in order to render them more fit for the work of fury. Now the circumstances with respect to that were as follow:—On the day but one before, he had his annual dinner for the school children, which they had every year, and 450 children sat down to table.
1134
He had always been in the habit of purchasing for that dinner a certain quantity of small beer; and knowing those persons came from a great distance, he ordered six barrels more of small beer for any of those who might have brought their families. That was the exact state of the case. It was said that he had made a rambling speech, recommending them to return by Dolly's-brae, and if they were opposed, to oppose force to force. And now he would read what he really said, and which was taken down by a person at the time:—
"My dear Brethren—I am anxious to express how grateful I feel for the spontaneous and unsolicited visit this day, on the occasion of our glorious anniversary. I feel that this is the most gratifying mark of your affection and attachment which you could have bestowed upon me and my family. The thousands of loyal men that I see around me—the waving banners of fifty lodges—the dense multitude, too great for any voice to reach—the magnificent scenery by which we are surrounded—the mountains of Morne echoing to your shouts—Slieve Donard, the mistress of them all, looking down upon our proceedings—the waters of the Shimna flowing beneath us, carrying the testimony of your loyalty to the ocean before us, makes it a glorious sight—one in which I wish every loyal man could have joined us to-day—one which I would delight in thinking that even those opposed to us were here to witness. But, much as I thank you for this visit, I feel the honour was not so much intended to me personally as to those Protestant principles which I hold, and which I have endeavoured to maintain for a period of thirty years' residence amongst you. I have learnt, and am convinced, that it is true Protestant principles, held up and maintained in this land, that can alone prove a guarantee for the liberties of all classes and denominations of the people; it is the right of private judgment in the study of God's holy word which is the chief blessing of any nation which avails itself of it. It is for this principle Orangemen contend, and which, I trust, they will never cease to assert, acting under the teachings of God's word, which enjoins forbearance and love to all. I trust you will ever show to those who disapprove of your organisation that you are not a faction driven by party violence to commit unlawful acts; that you do not desire to infringe on the liberties and happiness of others; but that you wish to see all denominations of your fellow-subjects enjoying the blessings which you seek for yourselves. It is a great pleasure to communicate to you on the present occasion the probable arrival of our Gracious Queen and Her Royal Consort in this country. Oh, that we could see her fairy bark now approaching that shore—that we could see her landing on that beach—how these woods would resound with the shouts of your thousand, ten thousand welcomes—how her eyes would sparkle at such a sight now before me, in the assembling of that multitude of loyal men, ready to lay down their lives in the defence of her Crown and her rights! [great cheering and shouting.] We have had much to complain of from the various parties who have ruled the country for the last twenty years. 'The rowers have brought

1135
us into deep water'—we have seen heavy blows and great discouragement given to Protestantism; but still maintain your loyalty—you will never forget, I trust, that your motto is unchanged—'Semper Eadem;' involving the preservation of our rights, the promotion of peace, and the welfare of all denominations of our fellow-subjects. I trust you will rather take evil than provoke it; that nothing will induce you, in returning to your homes to-day, to resent even any insult you may receive. May God bless you and uphold you, keeping you firm in your principles, determined to support the laws of the country, and enabling you by 'well-doing to put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.' I shall now conclude, asking you, before you go, to join me in three hearty cheers for her Most Gracious Majesty and her Royal Consort, and may they have a speedy voyage and happy arrival on our shores."
Those were the words he had made use of on the occasion, so far as he could remember; and was there a word in that to the effect that they were to return through Dolly's-brae, and not molest any one; but if they were opposed, to oppose force to force? He believed he had now trespassed on their Lordships' attention much longer than he would desire. He would go further, but he merely wished to confine himself on the present occasion to his own personal connexion with the affair. That was his advice to the people he loved, and with whom he had lived for so many years; an advice which they followed up to the period of the unfortunate attack that had caused such a melancholy result. He now trusted that he had satisfied every fair and reasonable man, that he was not liable to the charges that had been made against him.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhoped that the noble Earl, after the statement he had thought it his duty to make in reference to a matter affecting his character, would consider it a wise forbearance if he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) did not state anything himself with reference to the noble Earl's statement, and if he desired to be understood as neither assenting to nor dissenting from any part of that statement, which referred to a transaction which all must deplore, and which he was glad to hear the noble Earl, in common with every one else, lamented. That transaction had led to an amount of irritation not easy to describe, to a loss of property and life, and to a deep injury to the feelings of a large portion of the population. It had therefore been made the subject of inquiry, and it was not for him to anticipate what would be the result of that inquiry; but, whatever it might be, it would be made known, and their Lordships and the public would have the opportunity of judging in what circum-
1136
stances a transaction, which had led to so unfortunate a result, had originated. All he would now observe was, that it must be a matter of deep regret to see a state of society in which, from no other motive and with no other provocation than the recurrence of certain days, proceedings should take place calculated to irritate the feelings of the population, and to lead to a loss of life, and that unexcused by any preceding acts of a nature to excite the passions. If there were no prospect of the cessation of such transactions, there could be no doubt that it would be the duty of the Legislature to interpose for the purpose of preventing them; but in the absence of any Act of Parliament for that object, it was quite clear, by the common law of the land, and according to the most eminent authorities in the law who had been consulted on the subject, that the bringing into movement multitudes, armed as it appeared in this instance—but, even when unarmed, in a mode calculated to excite public disturbance—was in itself illegal, and might be, and ought to be, prosecuted by the Government, by the magistrates, and by all well-wishers to the peace of the community, so that the offenders, for offenders they were, might be brought to justice for endangering that peace, which (far from there being anything in the peculiar circumstances of Ireland justifying any disturbances of it) there were, on the contrary, circumstances in the state of Ireland inculcating peculiar caution on every rational, loyal, and well-disposed subject of Her Majesty to preserve. Therefore the Government trusted, that, through the contemplated inquiry, justice would be done; and that, if necessary, the Legislature would interfere to put an end to such proceedings as those which had been alluded to; bearing in mind at the same time that they were contrary to law.

PROGRESS OF BILLS THROUGH PARLIAMENT.
LORD BROUGHAMconsidered that the noble Marquess had acted in a fair and judicious manner in abstaining from all comment on the subject which had been brought under their consideration by the noble Earl behind him, who, he thought, was most forward in performing what he conceived to be his duty, and in a manner very satisfactory indeed. He (Lord Brougham) having made that observation, begged to call their Lordships' attention to the subject of which he had given notice

1137
on the previous evening, with respect to the passage of Bills through Parliament. He did not then mean to propose any plan to their Lordships' attention to what he had so often urged upon them, namely, the absolute necessity of taking some course for duly providing somebody by whom Bills shall be prepared, and shall be watched during their progress through Parliament. It was part of his plan that there should be a Board appointed for the purpose of preparing Bills, and that that Board should have a final inspection of them. There was no intention on his part of controlling the Legislature. Unless the author of a Bill saw what was done to it during its progress, he could not be sure or certain that some mischief had not been done to it, which might not be discovered until after the Bill had become law. If he wanted an instance to illustrate the course which should be adopted, he could take it from the manner in which private Bills are prepared. There is a Chairman of Committees to examine all private Bills, and during all their stages in that and the other House of Parliament the same salutary revision was continued; and were it not for that revision no man could comprehend the extent of abuse that would be committed, or the embarrassment that would be created. This would arise from the passing of Acts deviating from the general law; but, above all, from clauses in the Acts themselves put in by contending parties, each one sacrificing a little to the other, and the other sacrificing a little to that party in order to obtain his consent, neither caring a farthing for other parties, nor one rush for the public, by which a vast mass of confusion in the law might be created, causing embarrassment to the court, and difficulty to practitioners, and, above all, injury to the public; and it was frightful to contemplate the evil that might be done were it not for the careful superintendence that was practised. If that were a good system with regard to private Bills, it would also prove useful with respect to public Bills. The existing law was very much to be considered in all the cases that arose; and the object of each particular Act was also to be considered, because the Bills themselves, from the want of superintendence, might do much mischief that the authors never intended, and might also render them totally inoperative. If he wanted an instance to support his statement, he might refer to what had recently taken place with respect to the Bankruptcy
1138
Bill. He mentioned the case to show what grievous consequences might arise from not attending to details, and from the originator of the measure not being consulted during the progress of the measure through Parliament. There was also another and recent case where they had to suspend the operation of an Act for six months, because it was not properly passed. Then there was another measure that came to them from the other House without a division, having reference to the Irish Chancellor's Secretary of Bankrupts, to which he might also refer in support of his argument. Having made these observations on this subject, he would refer to the course that had been taken during that Session with respect to voting by proxy, and he would move for—
"Account of the Instances, for the Ten Years ending the 31st July, 1849, in which. Proxies having been called, the Result of the Division was such that the Majority of the Peers present was different from the Majority of the whole Votes, present and Proxy; distinguishing the Date of each Instance: and also—
"An Account, for the like Years, of the Number of Times in each Year in which Proxies have been called."
He (Lord Brougham), however, begged it to be understood that he was not in favour of abolishing the system of voting by proxy.
LORD REDESDALEhad listened with very great attention to the statement which the noble and learned Lord had just made, of the inconveniences arising from the want of a better system for the management and preparation of Bills, and for correcting any errors which may have been introduced into them during their course through both Houses of Parliament. No doubt if any practical measure could be devised for obviating all such errors and oversights, or getting such important business into a well-digested and consistent shape, it would be highly desirable, and a very beneficial thing for all parties. But he (Lord Redesdale) feared that this was precisely one of those cases where a measure, about the expediency of which there could be no second opinion in point of principle, would be found absolutely impracticable in execution. With regard to the constitution of any commission for the revision of Bills such as the noble and learned Lord seemed to glance at, that was a consideration of very grave importance, and suggested doubts in his (Lord Redesdale's) mind, as to how far the plan could be carried out

1139
without involving the most serious questions touching the privileges of Parliament. Of whom must such a commission consist, if not of persons "learned in the law," according to the technical phraseology applied to such bodies? and to what, in effect, would their revision of public and private Bills amount to, if not to a delegation by both Houses of their faculties of legislation? When an enactment is doubtfully expressed, or when it is contradictory to some other part of a Bill, it can frequently be construed in different ways with almost equal propriety; and the manner consequently in which palpable errors might be corrected, and in which in some cases two or more clauses of a Bill could alone be made consistent and intelligible, might make a total alteration of the law as intended to be enacted by Parliament. However valuable, therefore, such an Amendment in the mode of preparing Bills and other business might be, as the noble Lord had suggested, with a view to obviate in future those evils of which he had with so much reason complained, he (Lord Redesdale) must be permitted to repeat that he considered the object sought to be attained by his noble and learned Friend was wholly impracticable. He must, therefore, vote against it as a measure that would inevitably lead to more perplexity and confusion than any which it was designed to remedy. With respect to the calling of proxies, that, also, was a question of great delicacy and importance. He himself had been a Member of their Lordships' House now for about twenty years, and in all that period until the present Session he had never known more than two instances in which the proxies had struck a majority on the vote against a majority of "presents." The one of these was on the Earl of Wicklow's Motion in 1832 on Irish Education; the other was in 1846, on a Motion of the Duke of Richmond to hear the silk weavers at the bar against the proposed alteration in the silk duties. In both these instances a majority of one only among the "presents" was reversed by proxies. In the course of the present Session, however, this manner of using proxies had been pushed to a much greater extent. There had been no less than three very remarkable cases of this sort. In one of them, although on counting "presents" there appeared for a given Motion a majority of fourteen, it had actually been set aside by the proxies called. Still he
1140
was favourable, like the noble and learned Lord beside him, to the system of proxies; but he thought the calling for them should be governed by some sort of discretion.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEwas curious to know how any such discretion could be practically reserved if proxies were to be called at all; and again, how the noble and learned Lord who had just spoken meant to obviate the contingency of a majority of the "presents" being occasionally set aside on calling proxies. Suppose at a certain period of the Session, one-third of all the Peers had already left town, and deposited their proxies, such of them as wished to do so, with those Peers who remained. It was obvious that, on any contested question, there would always be a great probability, on proxies being called, of any majority of presents being outvoted.
LORD CAMPBELLinferred that the noble Lord's (Lord Redesdale's) notion of the discreet exercise of the power of giving in a proxy for an absent Peer, amounted to this, that when the resulting majority on any question in which he gave it happened to be on the side for which it was so given by him, he, the noble Baron, conceived he had exercised the privilege under due discretion; but when the majority was against the side supported by the proxy so contributed, then the noble Baron felt he had used his proxy indiscreetly.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas glad to find that the noble and learned Lord was in favour of retaining the use of proxies. At the same time, he thought it appeared, on the showing of the noble and learned Lord himself, that the difficulties likely to be experienced in regulating the sort of discretion with which he seemed to contend that the privilege should be always exercised, would be found in practice endless and impracticable. There were difficulties—there would be difficulties—as to the nature of the questions on which proxies should, and as to those on which they should not, be called. As to the commission for revising the Bills, and other business, from time to time coming before the House of Peers from another place, he was quite at a loss to see how the noble and learned Lord could hope to make provision for all conditions of the principles he desired to apply, without taking from this branch of the Legislature some of its chiefest and most peculiar functions. He found himself, therefore, unable to accede to any

1141
such proposal as that suggested by the noble and learned Lord. And it occurred to him to add, for the consideration of that noble and learned Lord, another element of difficulty in connexion with the possibility of regulating the discretion of using proxies, or indeed of calling them. What additional weight ought to be attached to the opinions of the Peer in whose hands other Peers, out of deference probably to the general soundness of these opinions, had confided their proxies? In short, he could see no way out of the many considerations that surrounded the suggestions which had been submitted to the House, and which, therefore, he trusted that the House would decline to adopt.
LORD BROUGHAMfelt that no course remained to him but to withdraw his proposition, after what had fallen from the noble Marquess who had just sat down. But the noble Marquess would give him leave to say, when he talked of the impossibility of putting any control on the exercise of the privilege of calling proxies, that they had already established precedents for that control in several cases. For example, the Standing Orders had successively prohibited the questions in respect of all judicial questions, on divorce cases, and on votes of censure.
On Question, resolved in the Affirmative; Returns ordered accordingly.
House adjourned till To-morrow.