Lords Sitting of 24 July 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Railways Abandonment; Poor Law union Charges Act Amendment; Royal Pavilion (Brighton); Collection of Rates (Dublin); Dublin Improvement; Turnpike Acts Continuance; Pilotage.
2a London Corporation; Regimental Benefit Societies; Enlistment (Artillery and Ordnance); Trustees Relief; House of Commons Offices; Militia Pay.
Reporet.—Inland Posts (Colonies); Land Improvement Amendment (Ireland); Labouring Poor Act Amendment (Ireland); Boroughs Relief; Stock in Trade; Advance of Money (Athlone to Galway Railway); Joint Stock Companies Act (1848) Amendment; Relief of Distress (Ireland) (No. 2); Petty Bag, &c. Offices Amendment; Small Debts Act Amendment; Poor Relief (Cities and Boroughs); County Rates, &c.
3a Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Poor Relief (Ireland); Highway Rates; Excise Benevolent Fund Society; Newgate Gaol (Dublin); Lunatic Asylums (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRTITIONS. By Lord Redesdale, from Lyme Regis, against any Alteration of the Law of Marriage; also from the City of London, that Provision shall be made in the London Corporation Bill for an Alteration in the Right of Voting.—By the Bishop of Manchester, from Manchester, and other Places, in favour of the present System of Education by the Aid of Parliamentary Grants

REGIMENTAL BENEFIT SOCIETIES BILL.
The DUKE of WELLINGTON The DUKE of WELLINGTON moved the Second Reading of the Regimental Benefit Societies Bill These societies were originally established in the Army under the authority of the Benefit Societies Act of the 33rd of George III., with the provisions of which their Lordships were doubtless acquainted. The inconvenience of them had long been felt. Their existence was found to be inconsistent with the usual discipline and the constitutional existence of the Army, because in each of the regiments meetings were held for the purpose of discussing the interests of each of their particular benefit clubs. Circumstances had occurred in almost every regiment which were very inconvenient, and also discussions and disputes over which no control could be exercised on the part of the authorities. Under these circumstances, to his personal knowledge, it had been the desire of the officers at the head of the Army for a long period to put an end to the existence of these societies. His respected predecessor in the office of Commander in Chief, His Royal Highness the Duke of York, made an effort to put an end to their existence in the year 1826. Efforts had also boon made by himself and his late valued friend. Lord Hill, but in vain. The Act to which he had already referred, and under which these societies were constituted, was so well drawn, and its provisions were so strong, that it was found impossible to extinguish any one of them. Under these circumstances, at a later period, about twenty years ago, when it was thought desirable and even necessary to extinguish one of these societies in the Royal Regiment of the Horse Guards Blue, it was found necessary to apply to prliament, and an Act was passed to put an end to a provident and benefit society

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in that regiment. The inconveience of the existence of such societies in many regiments of the Army had been admitted ever since; and it had now become absolutely necessary to apply to Parliament for power to extinguish them—an object which it was proposed to accomplish by the appointment of a commission by Bill to adjust the accounts of each—to ascertain the claims existing upon each society, whether in the form of pensions acquired on retirement from the service, or of claims not yet complete, but existing for the advantage of persons still serving in the Army, and becoming complete on their retirement from the Army—and to make provision first for those who were already entitled to pensions, and afterwards for the distribution of the funds according to the principle contained in the Act of William IV. for the extinction of the benefit society in the Royal Regiment of Horse Guards Blue. Such were the objects of the Bill in relation to the regimental benefit societies. But the Bill related not only to those societies but to large funds in possession of different regiments of the Army, accumulated for certain objects by the commanding officer or other officers of the regiment. The existence of all these funds gave rise to discussions over which there was no control; and it was thought desirable that they should be placed upon some known principle, in the exercise of which full knowledge could be obtained of the proceedings of those charities, so as to give satisfaction to all. He believed that the commanding officers of regiments had done their duty in the administration of those charities; but no doubt complaints had been made of the malversation and misapplication of their funds; and, therefore, it was desirable that the authorities should have a knowledge of what was going on, and should be enabled, so far as control was required, to decide upon all matters in dispute. The commission named in the Bill was to consist of one Secretary of the Treasury, to be named by the Lords of the Treasury, of the Secretary at War, and of the Military Secretary to the general officer filling the position of the Commander in Chief. These were all parties generally interested in the management of the Army. He entertained no doubt that, according to the principle of this Bill, all those affairs would be so managed as to be for the advantage and satisfaction of the Army, and for the better maintenance and preservation of discipline. He, therefore,
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again asked their Lordships to give the Bill a second reading, and to allow him to name an early day for the Committee, Bill road 2a.

STATE OF PUBLIC BUSINESS.
LORD STANLEYsaid, they were now within three or four days of the termination of the Session, and on that day, the 24th of July, there had come from the House of Commons no less than seven Bills then to be read a first time by their Lordships. Two or three of those Bills were of very considerable importance. One of them was a Bill to provide for the collection of rates in the City of Dublin, another was the Poor-law Union Charges Act Amendment Bill, and there was also a most important Bill to amend the Laws relating to Pilotage. That was a measure of very serious importance; it touched, by some of its provisions, on the treaties of reciprocity with foreign Powers, and its importance could hardly be exaggerated. Those seven Bills were sent to them when Parliament was about to separate in three or four days. On the preceding day twenty-two Bills were passed through different stages; he know not how many had been passed through different stages on that day, and now they had sent up to them another set of Bills. He must say that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the manner in which they were in the habit of legislating at the close of a Session. He would not throw any impediment in the way of passing measures that were necessary to be passed, but there was no reason for not bringing them forward at an earlier period. There was no reason for these Bills being deferred almost to the very last day.
EARL GREYsaid, that complaint made on this subject was, to a certain extent, a well-founded complaint; but it was not a new complaint. It was fifty years old at the very least; and year after year, under various Administrations, the complaint had been made. He was afraid it was a necessary consequence of the constitution of the two Houses of Parliament. He, for one, had supported a Bill that would greatly tend to mitigate the inconvenience, and he greatly regretted that in the other House of Parliament that Bill had failed; he thought the Bill would have worked advantageously. But great as the inconvenience was, he did not think, with reference to those Bills that were now brought up, there was any reason for delaying

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them. When the noble lord said it was discreditable on the part of the Government to send them up to that House at that time, he should remember how they were circumstanced in the other House of Parliament. Her Majesty's Ministers had but the command of two days in the week, and of those two days they were continually deprived by Motions brought in by individual Members as Amendments on going into Committee of Supply. It was necessary to make every effort to carry, as soon as possible, the important measures of the Session that had been made; and many measures of great importance were brought that year before their Lordships at an earlier period of the Session than usual. The measure for the repeal of the Navigation Laws had been brought before the House at an earlier period than measures of that importance had boon usually brought forward. With regard to the Bills now on the table, he believed some of those Bills were merely continuing Bills, and one of them was a private Act. The Bill with regard to pilotage was, no doubt, a Bill of considerable importance; but it was merely a measure giving to certain bodies in this country the power, if they think fit, of relaxing their rules for the convenience of the mercantile marine; and when his noble Friend moved the second reading of this Bill, their Lordships would find there was no reason whatever to delay it. He assured their Lordships that he greatly regretted the manner in which Bills of importance were, by the present constitution of the two Houses, necessarily laid before their Lordships within a very short period of the close of the Session.
LORD STANLEYwas aware of the difficulty experienced by Government in carrying Bills through the other House of Parliament, by the limited time which they had at their disposal; but with regard to the Pilotage Bill, that apology would not answer. So far from there being any difficulty in carrying that Bill through the House of Commons, the Motion for leave to introduce it was only made on the 12th of the present month. That measure, he supposed, was a corollary to the repeal of the navigation laws, and there was no reason for not bringing it forward at an earlier period. It met with no delay or obstruction in the other House of Parliament; and it was the fault of the Government, and of the Government alone, that the Bill had been delayed. Could there be a stronger proof of the carelessness with which legis-
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lation in both Houses was carried on than was to be found in this fact—that they were now going to have a Bill brought in to correct a blunder made in another Bill I a fortnight ago? A measure was brought in with regard to defects in leases. The Bill was passed sub silentio; and within a fortnight from the passing of that Bill, it being found utterly absurd and impracticable, another Bill was brought in to correct it.
After a few words from Lord CAMPBELL,
House adjourned till To-morrow.