Lords Sitting of 19 July 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS1a Chapels of Ease (Ireland); Petty Bag, &c. Offices Amendment; Labouring Poor Act Amendment (Ireland); Relief of Distress (Ireland) (No. 2); Small Debts Act Amendment; Stock in Trade; Regimental Benefit Societies; Enlistment (Artillery and Ordnance).
2a Titles of Religious Congregations (Scotland).
Reported,—Admiralty Jurisdiction in the Colonies; Sewers Acts Amendment.
3a Turnpike Roads (Ireland); Pupils Protection (Scotland); Sequestrators Remedies.
PETITIONS PRESENTED, By Earl Fortescue, from the Southmolton Union, for the Establishment of a Superannuation Fund for Retiring Poor Law Officers,—From Birmingham, for the Restoration of the Ten Suppressed Sees in Ireland.—From Bangor, for Extending the Jurisdiction of County Courts.

TITLES OF RELIGIOUS CONGREGATIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
LORD CAMPBELL LORD CAMPBELL moved the Second Reading of this Bill, the object of which was to put an end to the great inconveniences which were at present felt in Scotland, owing to the feudal tenures in that kingdom in obtaining the transfer from one set of trustees to another, of small pieces of land, which had been obtained for the purpose of erecting chapels and schools in connexion with religious congregations in Scotland. The Bill simply proposed to extend the principle of an Act passed in the 3rd and 4th Victoria, and to give the right of holding the property upon the death of the trustees to other trustees, or the minister of a congregation, without the expense and delay attendant upon the present mode of conveyance. The inconvenience of the present state of the law bad been felt to be a grievance, and the present Bill, which proposed to remedy the evil, would be beneficial to the whole of the sects and religious persuasions of Scotland. The Bill had passed without opposition through the other House of Parliament, and he hoped their Lordships would not refuse to allow it to be read a second time.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that if this Bill had passed without opposition in the House of Commons, it was owing to the fact that it had also passed without due consideration. His Lordship then read several extracts from the Journals of the other House of Parliament, to show that every one of its stages in that House had been taken after half-past twelve o'clock at night. Had it not been for the way in

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which Bills were passed in the House of Commons at this period of the Session, this Bill would never have reached their Lordships in its present shape; for it made every school and Dissenting congregation in Scotland a corporation qualified to hold land. It also placed Dissenters in the same position as the Established Church in that country. Hitherto the property of all Dissenting congregations had been held for them by trustees; but this Bill made all office-bearers in those congregations trustees at once virtute officii. It was intended, also, to set up the ministers of the Free Church on the same footing as the ministers of the Established Church. He therefore hoped that the noble and learned Lord would not persevere with this Bill during the present Session. If it were fitting that the ministers of Dissenting congregations in Scotland should be erected into perpetual trustees capable of holding land for their flocks, it was also fitting that the same privilege should be given to Dissenting congregations in England.
LORD BROUGHAMsupported the second reading of the Bill, and saw no probability of either inconvenience or evil arising from it. He had no objection to it because it was favourable to the Free Church, which, though it did not contain a majority, still contained a large minority of the people of Scotland. He did not wish the Free Church well, but he did wish it to have the fullest religious liberty. The ministers of that Church were already trustees in law, and this Bill would not erect them into corporations.
The EARL of ABERDEENcould not say that he entertained any objection to the principle of this Bill, which merely carried out the provisions of another Bill passed some years ago. It was, however, a specimen of hasty legislation upon a matter which was always of importance, and which was particularly important at this period in Scotland. Without objecting to the Bill, he must say that in his opinion the noble and learned Lord would do much bettor in postponing it to another Session than in endeavouring to pass it now.
LORD POLWARTHsaid, that he believed there was a very large proportion of the people of Scotland who were utterly ignorant of the provisions of this Bill. He thought it necessary to delay the Bill for a short time on that account.
LORD CAMPBELLdenied that the Bill would establish any new principle; it was
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simply an alteration of the present mode of conveyance. If the Bill would have the effect of giving any unfair advantage to the Free Church, he would be the last person in the House to bring forward such a measure.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the Bill had only been introduced into the House of Commons on the 2nd of July, and therefore it was impossible that it could have received due consideration. He wished that the Bill should be postponed, for a new principle was established which he thought ought to be maturely considered.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, he could not conceive what objection there could be to the Bill. It was simply a Bill to enable parties to do in a more simple form, and at less expense, that which they were legally entitled to do at present. He denied that the Bill was one of a religious or sectarian character.
LORD CAMPBELL, in reply, denied that the object of the Bill was to sot up the Free Church against the Established Church. It was not a Bill to give sites for chapels and schools contrary to the will of the over-landlord; but it was a Bill to enable the office-bearers of Dissenting congregations to avail themselves of the sites which they had already got. He hoped that their Lordships, notwithstanding the objections urged against it, would read the Bill now a second time.
On Question, resolved in the Affirmative.
Bill read 2a.

PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
LORD POLWARTHwished to know whether the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carlisle) bad any intention of presenting the Public Health (Scotland) Bill during the present Session; and if not, whether he would undertake to introduce any measure early in the next Session, in order that it might be fully discussed, and come into operation as soon as possible? He regretted that the measure had not been brought in at an earlier period of the Session, for had it been passed it was probable that the visitation of cholera which had afflicted so many parts of the country lately might have been rendered less severe in its character by the operation of that Act.
The EARL of CARLISLEparticipated in the regret which he knew that Lord Polwarth would feel on hearing that they were not likely to receive from the other House that Session a Health of Towns

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Bill for Scotland. That Bill had been introduced into the House of Commons, and had been referred to the consideration of a Select Committee. He hoped that it might still emerge from that Committee, and come down to their Lordships for discussion. Still, if the Members for Scotland should be of opinion that the Bill could not be passed during the present Session, he hoped that it would be one of the first objects discussed in the next Session of Parliament.

AFFAIRS OF ROME.
The EARL of MALMESBURYwished to put a question to the noble Marquess the President of the Council on the subject of the arrival in this country of a number of persons who had served in the Republican army in Rome, and who had received passports from the consular agent of this country at Rome, Mr. Freeborn. He did not wish to express any opinion with respect to the affairs which had recently taken place at Rome. But whatever opinion they might have with respect to the policy which induced the French Government, and the justice which regulated their actions when they sent an army to Rome, it was at least unusual for a consular agent to give passports to foreigners, and especially to foreigners who were in the very false position in which many of those persons found themselves. If any excuse could have been given for such conduct, it would have been that of humanity. If the lives of these men had been in danger, he could conceive the propriety of straining a point, and giving them passports in order to facilitate their escape from danger. It appeared, however, that such was not the case, and the French general was only too glad to get rid of those persons. Therefore he could not understand the reasons that had induced Mr. Freeborn to act in this unusual manner. He thought that such a practice must prove injurious to the respectability that always belonged to English passports; and the subjects of Her Majesty travelling with English passports might find some inconvenience from the suspicion that would by this means be thrown over persons having those documents in their hands. Could the noble Marquess tell him if the English Consul at Rome was acting according to orders given by the Secretary of State in England, or was he merely acting on his own responsibility? If it were inconvenient to the noble Marquess to answer the
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question at that moment, he would repeat it on the following evening.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEcould answer the question as well then as on a future day. He certainly had heard that Mr. Freeborn had given such passports, and he agreed with the noble Earl that he ought not to have done so, unless the parties to whom they were given were in danger of their lives. It was impossible for him to say, from his own knowledge, whether each of the individuals to whom passports had been given was in such danger; but he apprehended that must have been the case, and that would, therefore, be the ground on which the passports had been given.
LORD BROUGHAMconsidered that this was a very important matter, if English passports were to be given indiscriminately to foreigners. The parties to whom those passports were exhibited believed that they were given in good faith; and hence the little inconvenience to which Englishmen were subjected in travelling upon the Continent. But if every foreigner could obtain them, it would prove very injurious to English subjects who might not have their passports quite en regle. A knave going to escape from the scenes of his knavery was sure to have his passport more en regle, as the French called it, than the honest subject of these realms.
The EARL of HARROWBYreminded their Lordships that an English passport was a safe conduct through foreign countries. If it were to be given to a foreigner in danger, it would cease to be a security to an Englishman, or, indeed, to any individual. If a person who had made himself very notorious was now walking on the strength of a British passport in security through the streets of Rome, it was a matter that deserved to be noticed.
The EARL of MINTOwas prepared to give some explanation, on the part of Mr. Freeborn, with respect to the course he had taken. He concluded a letter to him (the Earl of Minto) in these words—" Excuse this brevity, I am fatigued in body and mind. I have been up all night facilitating the departure of those who, having compromised themselves, might be shot." He added, that the danger to human life alone induced him to act as he had done. He (the Earl of Minto) would not say whether Mr. Freeborn had acted right or wrong; but he wished, in justice to him, to state what were his motives in facilitating

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The escape of those persons from imminent danger.
The EARL of MALMESBURYthought that the Consul proved himself what he had proved himself before, a rather nervous person. He had happened to see on the preceding day one of those men who came over with Mr. Freeborn's passports, and he confessed that General Oudinot was anxious to get rid of those persons. So glad was he to get rid of them, that there were many persons travelling under English passports to whom General Oudinot had given a French safe conduct.

THE STEAM NAVY.
EARL TALBOTbegged to call the attention of their Lordships to a correspondence which had recently taken place with respect to the state of the steam navy, one of the correspondents being Sir Charles Napier, who had lately been in command of the Channel squadron, and the other correspondent being a Member of their Lordships' House. He did not wish to enter into the merits of that correspondence; but he thought the question raised by it of so much importance, that he was anxious to afford the Government an opportunity of setting the question at rest, by stating whether the steam navy of the country is or is not sufficient for the defence of our shores, and of the empire generally. The gallant Admiral to whom he referred stated that they had only three steam frigates with an armament on the main deck, and that there were twenty-two frigates of that description in the French navy. He did not think the gallant Admiral had adduced any very strong evidence in support of the assertion that there are twenty-two French steamers of this description; but he had stated in positive terms that we had only three vessels carrying guns on the main deck propelled by steam. He found the gallant Admiral had omitted the line-of-battle ships that go by the name of block ships, that are propelled by screws, and which he (Earl Talbot) had no doubt would sooner or later prove of efficiency and use; and so much did he think that was the case, that he had no doubt that, in the course of a few years, they would find it necessary to adopt the screw system as an auxiliary in all their sailing vessels, and thus make them, what frigates were formerly called, "the eyes of the fleet." He should take the liberty of putting a question to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Minto) with re-
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ference to the matters adverted to in the correspondence at the close of his observations. It was not his wish to moot the question at all in the House, and he would not have done so had he not seen that it was totally unattended to in the other House of Parliament, where the Admiralty was more immediately represented, and where it was more proper to have the question discussed. He intended to move for certain returns with the consent of the First Lord of the Admiralty, who gave his permission on the condition that he would only move for the first-named returns, and the others, involving too much labour in the office, could be made out hereafter. The first return he would move for would be to show, "The number and description of each war steamer in commission, showing tonnage, horse-power, and armament, quantity of coals each is capable of carrying under hatches, consumption of coal per diem when under full steam, distinguishing screw from paddlewheel ship." Secondly, "Similar return of war steamers either advanced in ordinary, or under repair." Then they would get an official record that would show the extent of the steam force of this country. He would observe that there was a great waste of public money in the construction of steam vessels in this country, and that had been occasioned by the want of a measure which for several years he had advocated, namely, the appointment of a scientific board of construction, to whom the plans of all vessels might be referred. It was most important that they should bring science to hear on this matter. At present each man had his own view as to the mode in which ships should be built, and called upon the Admiralty to approve of his plan; and the consequence was that they had ships built that were mismanaged. He had moved for return after return, to get at the wasteful expenditure of public money that had been thus occasioned; but they presented one mass of confusion that savoured very much of the cooking of accounts. He would not trouble their Lordships with the names of the ships that had been so mismanaged, as it would occupy their time much more than he was inclined to do; but he must allude to one of those ships, in the construction of which the gallant Admiral himself had taken a great part. The gallant Admiral had taken a great part in the construction of the sidon; but he (Earl Talbot) had been informed that the Sidon was by no means a perfect

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ship. Amongst the returns for which he hoped to be able to move, he would also ask for a return of the merchant steamers which could be made available in case of emergency. There were, as their Lordships must be aware, certain contracts entered into with large steam companies, who received public grants for carrying the mails; and in these contracts he believed there was a clause by which those proprietors of steam vessels were compelled to construct them in a certain way, so that in case of necessity they should be able to carry heavy ordnance. That would be a very useful return to lay upon the table of the House. If the gallant Admiral to whom he had referred stated that he had seen those French steamers, and made a report respecting them to the Admiralty, he (Earl Talbot) would ask for a copy of that report, in order that their Lordships and the country might be able to judge of the extent of the force that exists in France. When he spoke of the French steam vessels, he was far from wishing that there should be any thing like jealousy between the countries as to the extent of the force to be sustained by each; but this country, from its insular condition, and the great demand on its marine, was entitled, at the least, to have as efficient a force as France. He begged to call their Lordships' attention to a statement he held in his hand of the ships in the French and English navy. It was taken from their Navy List, and from the Journal of Marine, in France, and the statement of the President of the French Republic:—

LINE OF BATTLE SHIPS.

In Commission.

ENGLISH.

FRENCH.

No.

Guns.

No.

Guns.

12

1072

10

1000

Frigates.

9

382

7

338

Corvettes.

13

293

17

438

Brigs.

27

300

21

318

61

2047

55

2100

STEAM NAVY.

First class, above 200 horse-power.

No.

Horse-pr.

No.

Horse-pr.

26

9,173

22

7,630

Two of which, from 800 to 560 horse-power, carry guns on
maindeck.

Ten of which, from 600 to 450 horse-power. carry guns on
maindeck.

For 200 horse-power, downwards.

No.

Horse-pr.

No.

Horse-pr.

43

5,898

86

4,700

69

15,071

58

12,330

562

Screw Steamers.

No.

Horse-pr.

No.

Horse-pr.

9

1,560

3

540

RESERVED FORCE.

Line of Battle Ships.

5 ready for commission 20 advanced

President of French Republic says There are 10

Frigates and Sloops.

11 (but several advanced)

15

STEAM RESERVE.

Ready.

6 Screw vessels.

2,320

Steam frigates

10

27 Paddle steamers

6,688

Nearly Ready.

4 Screw vessels.

1,520

Corvettes

6

6 Paddle steamers

2,150

Small vessels

6

43

12,678

He admitted that they had a force sufficient to cope with any thing in existence at present; but he trusted, before any future steamers were built, means would be taken to correct the evil now complained of, and that their steamers might no longer be, he might say, the laughing-stock of the world. They had every capability for building the finest steamers in the world—they had the best machinery in the world, the best timber, and the best contractors, if the vessels were contracted for and equipped in a proper manner. While he was on the subject of naval matters, he should like also to obtain a return of the number of classes into which the ships of the Navy are divided. If a ship were disabled and wanted a spar, the answer, when it was applied for, might be that there was one belonging to another class, but not to fit that ship. Therefore there was a want of classification to enable them to arrive at a knowledge of what ships ought to constitute each class. What he contended for was, that a first-rate, carrying a certain number of guns, should be of a certain recognised size, and so with the second-rate, &c. A surveyor had been sent by Mr. Ward, the late Secretary of the Admiralty, to the dockyards, by whom regulations were made for the examination of apprentices for the different offices in the dockyard; but he (Earl Talbot) thought that the system of education now adopted was capable of great improvement. The greatest hardship had been experienced in consequence of the abolition of the Naval School of Architecture, and that was a measure which he believed to be of very great detriment to the public service, as well as of great hardship to the gentle-

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men who constituted that school. He hoped, before long that the necessity of the case would show that a school of that description should be established, from which the offices in the yards should be filled, and that department of the Navy put on an efficient and permanent footing. He would also move for a return on a future day of the number of men that had been discharged from Her Majesty's yards. The same system was now going on that had prevailed in the years 1832 and 1833—discharging men, leaving the yards inefficiently attended, the consequence being the very reverse of economical. Clearing the yards was not the way to get men; and when an emergency arose they would have to pay a higher price for them. He was perfectly confident that their steam navy would be able to maintain the honour of this country; but still he did not think it was so possible as men imagined, considering the great facilities that steam had given to France and other countries to bring troops to the shore and carry them over, to say that there is an equal facility of resisting them. They should, therefore, be on their guard, though he had no fear of the result, and he would have less fear when their seaboard was put on a more efficient footing. He could not sit down without saying that there were powers and inventions which would secure this country, not only from all the steamers of France, but from all the steamers of Europe. They knew of it very well, and the Government, he thought, were very remiss in not securing the benefit of them for the country. Having had a communication with the First Lord of the Admiralty, he would now move for the first two returns only.
The EARL of MINTOhad no doubt that he could obtain such information from the Admiralty as would enable him hereafter to give the noble Earl a more satisfactory answer than he could then give him, and which therefore he would not now attempt to give. He agreed with the noble Earl in the opinion expressed by him—that the state of the steam navy, when the returns were made, would be found to be such as must give entire satisfaction and security to the country. He could say for himself that, having seen several of those vessels on service, he was perfectly satisfied with them. With regard to the motive that had induced the noble Earl to move for those returns, namely, to counteract the representation of a very
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distinguished and gallant officer, he (the Earl of Minto) was sorry to say that such a correspondence had taken place. He must express his regret that any officer should carry on a correspondence of that description, or a controversy of that nature. It could not be attended with any public advantage whatever, it was of great detriment to the service, and it was a practice which he would wish as much as possible to be avoided. He had no objection to the returns that had been moved for; but with regard to the other returns, he hoped the noble Earl would give notice before he moved for them.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.