Lords Sitting of 17 July 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a London Corporation; Metropolis Buildings; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland); Land Improvement Amendment (Ireland); House of Commons Offices; Excise Benevolent Fund Society; Joint Stock Companies Act (1848) Amendment.
2a Admiralty Jurisdiction in the Colonies; Sewers Acts Amendment.
Reported.—Turnpike Roads (Ireland).
3a House of Lords Costs Taxation; Attorneys and Solicitors (Ireland); Marriages in Foreign Countries Facilitating.

THE AUSTRALIAN COLONIES.
LORD STANLEYrose for the purpose of asking the question, or rather of repeating the suggestion, which he had made to the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies about a fortnight ago. He had then
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stated that Her Majesty's Government would find some difficulty in passing the Bill for the regulation of the constitutions of the Australian Colonies through their Lordships' House in the present Session. It was now quite impossible for their Lordships to pass through Parliament with sufficient deliberation a Bill for regulating the constitutions of five or six of our newest and most important colonies. He wished to know whether the noble Earl would restrict that Bill to the mere separation of the colony of Port Phillip from the colony of New South Wales? To a Bill so restricted he should offer no opposition; but if the noble Earl intended to carry his Bill further, he warned him that it would meet with strong opposition, not only in the other, but also in that House of Parliament.
EARL GREYsaid, that the Bill now stood for a second reading in the Commons on Thursday; and he could give the noble Baron no decided answer to his question until he knew the result of the discussion which would then take place. He admitted that if that Bill were really a Bill for the establishment of new constitutions in the Australian colonies, it would not be proper to consider it at so late a period of the Session; but the Bill was limited to one point—the extension of that constitution which was established in New South Wales to our other colonies in its vicinity. It also made provisions that those colonies, by the authority of their respective Legislatures, should make alteration in those, subject, however, to the controlling power of Parliament. He believed that the parties in the colonies fully concurred in the propriety of the measure which had been introduced.
LORD MONTEAGLEwished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it was his intention, in the progress of this Bill, to introduce any clause that entirely changed the present mode of selling land in the Australian colonies? That would, in fact, be a measure greater in magnitude than any other of the provisions of the Bill; and that a change ought to take place, he was ready to admit.
EARL GREY, in answer to the question of the noble Lord, would say that he entirely differed from him as to the expediency of malting any alteration in the Land Sales Act. He believed, on the contrary, that the maintenance in its integrity of the system established by Parlia-

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ment, was of the most vital importance to the colonies. Therefore, it was not his intention to introduce any clause to alter that part of the Bill. However, great complaints were made by many of the colonists, who were tied up by Parliament, and prevented from making changes affecting their own interests; and it was said, when representative institutions should be extended to all Australia, it was only just that this subject, amongst others, should be open to them to deal with. As to any one of the colonies dealing with the Land Sales Act, it was impossible to agree to that, as those colonies were connected so closely with each other. By the Laud Sales Act, a great portion of the price is spent on emigration; and supposing one colony imported emigrants with that money, it would be wrong that a neighbouring colony should be able to reduce the price of land, and induce those persons to go to that colony from the other. But in deference to what he understood to be the general wish of persons in the colonies, he (Earl Grey) said this—that he saw no objection to introducing a clause by which, if a federal legislature were brought into operation, that legislature, acting for all the colonies, and for their common interest, would have the power to amend the Land Sales Act. That power he would be willing to give; but in giving it, he must say he would greatly lament if the colonists availed themselves of that power to reduce the selling price of land; and to do so without making compensation to parties who bought land under the existing law, would be an act of great injustice. It was recommended by a Committee that the price, when once raised, should never be lowered but by the authority of Parliament; and it was the intention of his noble Friend Lord John Russell, who at that time was Secretary of State for the Colonies, to act upon that recommendation if he had remained Secretary of State. But on his noble Friend leaving office, it was left to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) to introduce this Act, which, with some modifications, is still the law of the land. He repeated, that it was not his intention to propose any alteration with respect to the sale of land; but on extending representative institutions to the Australian colonies generally, there was no objection to allow the colonists, by their representatives, to form a federal body to deal with the subject.
LORD STANLEYthought the noble
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Earl must have perfectly satisfied his Colleagues and the country that it was entirely impossible, from the statement he had made, that the Bill could pass in the present Session. The noble Earl was not disposed to deal by Parliamentary authority with the sale of land; but he was ready to establish that which was altogether new in colonial administration, namely, a federal government. Then the question not only of a representative government, but of a federal government, had to be discussed, and the power to be confided to it should also be discussed, involving matters of the nicest consequence and greatest importance. The noble Earl proposed not only to introduce the question of a federal government, but to transfer to it the power of adjudicating upon questions that were no less imperial than colonial concerns, He proposed to give a certain power to the federal assembly, although some of the parties represented in that assembly might dissent from the alterations made by the federal government. The Bill was not yet printed for the other House of Parliament in the shape in which it was to pass. Here, then, was an entirely new Bill that was to be discussed in the House of Commons without being yet printed. It should then be discussed in Committee in the House of Commons; and he (Lord Stanley) promised the noble Earl it would be so discussed. Then it would have to go through all the other stages in the House of Commons, and afterwards to be submitted for consideration to their Lordships. When they only commenced on the 18th or 19th of July, their Lordships must be convinced that it was impossible to carry through the whole of this Bill in the present Session.
LORD MONTEAGLEwas quite convinced that if they laid down the principle of compensation to which the noble Earl had referred, with regard to their home legislation, it would be utterly impossible to defend any portion of the legislation of late years, whether it affected agriculture or commerce.
House adjourned to Thursday next.