Lords Sitting of 5 February 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Bankrupt Law Consolidation; Criminal Law Consolidation; Proceedings against Clergy.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the City of Westminster, and several Metropolitan Teetotal Societies, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays.

ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.
The LORD STEWARD OF THE HOUSEHOLD (EARL FORTESCUE)The LORD STEWARD OF THE HOUSEHOLD (EARL FORTESCUE) acquainted the House that Her Majesty had been pleased to return the following most Gracious Answer to their Lordships' Address:—
"MY LORDS—I thank you for your Assurances of the Loyalty of My People and their steady Attachment to the Institutions of the Country.
"It will at all Times be My Desire to promote their Happiness and Welfare."
On the Motion of the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, Her Majesty's most Gracious Answer was ordered to be printed and published.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD STANLEYreminded their Lordships that last Session he felt it his duty to advert more than once to the mode of conducting business in that House, and to the great delay in the introduction of mea-
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sures in that House in the early part of the Session, which created an undue pressure of business, so that, towards the close, when there was a thin attendance, they had more to do than they could satisfactorily accomplish. The measure which he introduced obtained their Lordships' concurrence, though not that of the other House; and he now understood that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take some steps in consequence of the recommendations of a Select Committee of that House. That being the case, he was not disposed to take the responsibility of any measure upon himself, until, at all events, he saw what was likely to be the result of the Amendments which he hoped would shortly be introduced into the other House for the despatch of public business. But in order that their Lordships might have before them a practical result of the existing system, he should move for a return, to which he apprehended there would be no objection—namely, a return, in the order of their original introduction, of all Public Bills introduced into either House of Parliament during the Session of 1847–8, distinguishing those introduced into each House respectively, and showing the dates at which each of such Bills passed through each of its stages. This return would show an unfortunate result as to the manner in which public business had been disposed of in both Houses.
Ordered to be laid before the House.

NORTH WALES RAILWAY.
On the Motion of LORD MONTEAGLE,
"William Chadwick, Esquire, Chairman, and John Mariner, Esquire, late Secretary of the North Wales Railway Company, were called in, in pursuance of the Order of this House of the 5th of September last, and were examined as to their not having produced certain Accounts ordered by this House on the 3rd and 25th of August last, and also as to their not having attended at the Bar of this House, pursuant to Orders of this House of the 31st of August and 4th of September last: They delivered in certain Accounts."
In answer to the LORD CHANCELLOR, Mr. Chadwick stated he had no intention of disobeying their Lordships' order; but the accounts in question were now the subject of proceedings in Chancery, and he hoped their production would not be pressed.
The parties having been ordered to withdraw,
LORD MONTEAGLEexpressed his surprise at the explanation that had been

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given. In the course of last Session, in the early part of July, a question was raised with regard to the conduct of railway directors and railway companies in the application or misapplication of their funds, which induced their Lordships to make an order for the production of certain documents relative to the accounts of the North Wales Railway. That order was served, by the officers of the House, upon the parties whose immediate duty it was to obey it; and they made no remonstrance to the production of the accounts. If any papers had been called for which tended in the slightest degree to interrupt the course of justice, nothing could have been more easy than to have petitioned the House, upon that ground, to rescind the order. No such steps, however, were taken, but rather the contrary. The order was made on the 3rd of August. It was disobeyed; and on the 23rd of August a peremptory order was made for the production of the documents forthwith. No statement of the kind now made was then offered. The Session being near its termination, notice was given to the parties to attend at the bar this day, to produce the papers in question, and offer any explanation which they could of their neglect to obey the previous orders of the House. No sooner was that order made, than a letter was addressed to himself, and to the Railway Department of the Board of Trade, by the Secretary of the Company, to the following effect:—
"August 31.—I am directed immediately to comply with the requirements contained in your Lordships' order of the 25th instant, and to inform your Lordships that a letter has been sent, to that effect, to Captain Harness, of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade."
The intention of this letter was to deceive and blind the House as to the future course the parties would take. And now they appeared at the bar, saying they were ready to produce copies of bills in Chancery. What was this intended for, but to be a bar to the powers of the House? Such a proceeding had never yet been exhibited before their Lordships, and he called upon the House not to yield to it. He had called for the papers upon public grounds, for the purpose of establishing a fact which, the House agreed with him, was deserving of public attention, namely, that the present system of railway accounts ought to be improved by an effective system of audit. But he put it to their Lordships, whether they could entertain
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the excuse that had been made for not complying with their order. What might be done with the papers when they were produced, it was not for him to say. At all events, he would recommend the House to insist upon their production, to have them printed, and give the parties notice to attend upon a future day in case their examination should be necessary.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, there could be no doubt that where the House made an order for the production of papers, no person having the papers could decline to produce them. So long as the order stood, it must, beyond all question, be enforced. But it was quite another consideration whether their Lordships would consent to enforce it after they had been told they were in the nature of accounts—of which they knew nothing before—that were the subject of proceedings in a court of equity. He apprehended there had been some misconception on this point when the order was made.
LORD MONTEAGLEexplained that the House had distinctly before it, when the order was made, what were the accounts desired. They were simply extracts from the Company's hooks, which, by law, they were compelled to leave open for the inspection of every shareholder.
LORD BROUGHAMremarked, that the Chairman of the Company did not refuse to produce the accounts. He merely said there was a cause pending in which the accounts were documents.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, the accounts had been called for by an order of that House. The order had not been obeyed; there could be no doubt, therefore, that a direct contempt had been committed.
After a few words from LORD CAMPBELL, who was of opinion that the papers ought to be laid upon the table,
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEthought the proper course would be to call—first, for an explanation of the cause of delay, and the reason for the non-production of the papers; and then, if their Lordships saw fit, to call for the papers.
The Chairman and Secretary of the North Wales Railway Company were again called to the bar, and subjected to an examination by Lord Monteagle, Lord Brougham, Lord Minto, and other noble Lords, chiefly with regard to the date at which the order of the House for the production of the papers had been served, and to the reasons for delay. The Chairman of the Company explained,

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during the examination, that the directors lived in different parts of England, and it was difficult to get them together at a meeting. The order of their Lordships had been served upon Mr. Mariner, the Secretary, who had communicated the same to the chairman; and he had not made any objection to complying with the order. Mr. Mariner had not considered it an order of the House of Lords, but thought it emanated from the Railway Department of the Board of Trade; and the Chairman also stated, that the Secretary had communicated the document to him as an order from the Board of Trade; and that it was unusual to comply with such orders until they had been laid before a meeting of the directors. Upon reading the paper, however, it appeared from the heading, that it was an order proceeding from the "Lords Spiritual and Temporal," and
LORD BROUGHAMintimated to the gentlemen at the bar, that when they received an order of either House of Parliament, it was their bounden duty to obey it, without reference to calling any meeting of their own body.
The witnesses, after some further questioning, were ordered to withdraw, when
LORD MONTEAGLE LORD MONTEAGLE moved, that the evidence be printed, and that their Lordships should take the evidence of their own officers with respect to the service of the order, and that the witnesses be directed to attend at the bar on that day week.
The Motion agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.