Lords Sitting of 30 April 1849

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Earl of Seafield.
Sat first.—The Earl of Buckinghamshire, after the Death of his Brother,
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Highways; Turnpike Trusts Union.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Chelmsford, for the Repeal of all Enactments occasioning Unequal Competition between the English and Foreign Grower.—By the Earl of Eglinton, from Bath, that Measures may be taken to secure the Use of all Railways on Sundays to the Public.—From Wolverhampton, and a great Number of other Places, for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution.—From the Royal Burghs of Scotland, for a Repeal of the Game Laws.—By Lord Stanley, from Liverpool, Wisbech, Gainsborough, and other Places, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—From Leeds, against granting any New Licenses to Beer Shops.—From Stirling and Edinburgh, for an Alteration of the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.—From Bath, Kilbrogan, and Bandon, for an Alteration in the Distribution of Grants for Education (Ireland).—From the Cape of Good Hope, against the Introduction into the Colony of any Offenders, of whatsoever Denomination.—From Kirkwall, in favour of referring all International Differences to Arbitration by Neutral Powers; also for a thorough Reformation of Parochial Schools (Scotland).

WORKS OF ART IN ITALY.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that as his noble Friend the President of the Council was then in his place, he would endeavour to renew a conversation which had taken place last week, and which he was happy to say had already been attended with some usefulness, on the subject of the pillage now in course of perpetration upon the great repositories of art in Italy. He was induced to speak on that subject last week in consequence of certain reports which were then bruited abroad, but which had turned out to be great exaggerations, respecting the removal from Italy of certain immortal remains of the chisel, and the larger paintings of the great masters, and which were rather more difficult to transport to foreign countries than the "lesser" works of art to which he had then alluded. It had since been promulgated, for the purpose, he believed, of preparing a market for the plunder, that the Minister of Finance, the Controller General of the Exchequer, under what had been called very incorrectly the de facto Government of Rome, had departed from that capital, having in his possession to dispose of in Paris or London, or elsewhere, or to pledge as security for a loan, those inestimable works of ancient and modern art, the cameos of the Vatican, and also the medals and coins of the Vatican, which were beyond all price, because they were unique, and the manuscripts of the Vatican, which had not yet been sufficiently explored, and which one could wish to be explored in the possession of their rightful owners, and not

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for the encouragement of robbery and pillage for the base lucre of gain. When he saw surreptitious practices like these imputed—but he hoped falsely imputed—to the Minister of Finance at Rome, he could not help reminding their Lordships of an anecdote connected with the name of Voltaire. Voltaire, D'Alembert, and some other wits of the day were sitting round the fire one December evening at the chateau of Madame Du Chatelet, amusing themselves with telling stories of celebrated robbers, and one told one story beginning thus—" Once upon a time there lived a great robber at Nantes," and so on; and then another proceeded—" Once upon a time there lived another great robber at Lyons," and so on. At last the story came round to Voltaire, and he began—" One upon a time there lived a general controller of finance," and then he stopped, and, resuming after a pause, said—" Pardon me, gentlemen, I have forgotten the rest." Jadis vivait un comptrolleur-general de finance—parole d'honneur joublié le reste. He wished that that illustrious wit, philosopher, and historian had lived to see the remarkable light thrown upon his story by the Controller General of Finance at Rome, M. Manzoni. He could not help trusting that the public notice which he had taken, and which had been subsequently given to the world, of the fact that the medals, coins, and manuscripts belonging to the State of Rome had become the object of pillage, would have the effect of putting all the purchasers, and all the intended purchasers of them upon their guard. No love of the fine arts was a sufficient justification for men laying out their money in the purchase of works of art the produce of public robbery; for they must know that by so doing they became nothing else than purchasers of stolen goods.
A NOBLE LORDsaid, Lord Brougham had imputed to M. Manzoni the deeds really perpetrated by M. Mazzini.
LORD BROUGHAM, in reply, believed that he was quite correct in imputing this robbery to M. Manzoni. He was not, however, inclined to say one word in extenuation of the conduct of M. Mazzini, who was at the head of the assassination department at Rome. ["Hear!"] Yes, he was at the head of the police there, and had not prevented the murder, or seized the murderers, of his dear and learned friend M. Rossi. M. Manzoni was, it was said, at the head of the robbery department.
LORD BEAUMONTdeclared that Lord
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Brougham was perfectly correct in applying his remarks to M. Manzoni; but he begged leave to inform their Lordships that there were now two individuals in Italy of the name of Mazzini. The one was Minister of Police at Rome, the other was the great poet, who was now reposing in quiet at Milan, if indeed any man of spirit and intellect could repose in quiet under the iron despotism of Austria. The Mazzini who was now Minister of Police at Rome was not at Rome, but at Leghorn, at the time of the murder of M. Rossi.
LORD BROUGHAMrepeated that M. Mazzini and his Government had refused to detect, perhaps because they had instigated, the assassins of M. Rossi.

IRISH DISTRESS.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEthen rose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for—
"Copies or extracts of any further correspondence that might have taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Ireland, or between Her Majesty's Treasury and the Poor Law Commissioners in Ireland, relative to the steps taken, or to be taken, for the relief of destitution in certain parts of the country since the last papers were presented to Parliament on this subject, at the commencement of the present Session."
His Lordship said, that he stood before the House unconnected with Ireland either by birth, or property, or official connexion; yet, although he was thus unconnected with that country, he ventured to think that he could be justified in the opinion of their Lordships in calling their attention to the present condition of the greater portion of Ireland, and in demanding from the Government the papers included in his notice. He had been forcibly struck by the melan choly accounts which had recently reached this country from Ireland, and which had been made public in the usual channels of information. [His Lordship then read various descriptions, which he had collected from various quarters, of the condition of the union of Skibbereen; from which it appeared, that no rates could be collected in that union, that its credit was gone, and that the people were dying daily within it. His Lordship next read a similar account from the union of Westport.] Now, such being the case, he thought that their Lordships were entitled to have an official account of these appalling disasters; for, if true, they were sufficient to account for the causes which now weighed down the industrial energies of Ireland. [His Lordship then took a review of the last set of

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papers on the distress of Ireland which had been laid before their Lordships, and showed from them, that the condition of the unions of Ballina, Clifden, and seven other places, which he enumerated, was quite as calamitous as that of Skibbereen.] In February last, the recommendation of the Poor Law Commissioners was, that 12,000 l. must be advanced to those unions to relieve the distress which existed within them, and to avert starvation from the people. The Government now proposed to advance 50,000 l. for the relief of Irish distress; and yet a fourth of that sum had been expended in one month for the relief of distress in the nine unions alone which he had mentioned. Under these circumstances, it was impossible not to feel anxiety, both with regard to the expenditure of that sum, and to its efficiency as well as sufficiency for the purpose to which it was to be applied. It was impossible, in his opinion, to contemplate a more fearful state of things than that which was contained in the papers which he had read to their Lordships. Those papers disclosed an extent of destitution which had never before existed in any country on the face of the globe. It was, therefore, important for their Lordships to consider, not only the amount of relief to be advanced, but also the manner in which that amount was to he administered. He felt impelled to call on Government for the information described in his notice in consequence of the decision which had recently been come to in another place on the proposition of a rate in aid. He believed that there was no intention on the part of Her Majesty's Ministers to oppose his Motion, and he, therefore, should not intrude further upon the attention of their Lordships.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEobserved, that the noble Baron had correctly anticipated that there would be no objection to his Motion on the part of Her Majesty's Government. For his own part, he was much obliged to the noble Baron for having moved for this correspondence; because the present was the particular time in which every species of information would be valuable to their Lordships, as their Lordships would soon be called upon to pronounce on more than one measure which would be presented to them for the relief of Ireland. He wished that it were in his power in any way to contradict the allegations upon which the noble Baron founded his Motion. So far was he from thinking that those allegations were exaggerated,
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he was afraid they afforded too true a picture of the state of Ireland. He must, however, warn the noble Baron not to place implicit credit on all the local accounts which he received from Ireland; for many of them were utterly unfounded, and others were much exaggerated. The calamities over which the noble Baron so eloquently mourned were not yet at an end, in consequence of the renewed failure of the potato crop, on which so large a portion of the Irish population depended for existence. There was, therefore, no reason to be surprised that the pressure upon the energies of Ireland, which was great enough before, was now severely aggravated. It was right that their Lordships and the people of England should be made acquainted with the full magnitude of the evil. It had been the duty of Her Majesty's Government to prepare measures for its removal—measures which would also tend to the future improvement of the moral and social condition of Ireland.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.