Lords Sitting of 22 May 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Cruelty to Animals Prevention.
3a Assignment of Ecclesiastical Districts.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Redesdale and Lord Stanley, from Derbyshire, Herefordshire, Yorkshire, and several other Places, against the Jewish Disabilities Bill.—By Lord Portman, and the Bishop of Norwich, from Lanarkshire, and the Members of several Religious Societies, in favour of the Jewish Disabilities Bill.—By Lord Campbell, from the Members of several Religious Societies, and Others, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays.—By Lord Portman, from several Charitable Institutions, to be relieved from the Payment of Legacy Duty on Bequests made to them.—By the Earl of Cawdor, from the Presbytery of Orkney, Clare, and other Places, for Facilitating the Attainment of Sites for Churches.—By Lord Redesdale, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Others, of the City of London, in favour of the Smoke Prohibition Bill.—From the Members of several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to them.—By Lord Portman, from Middlesex, for an Extension of Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, and Triennial Parliaments.—From the Members of the Presbyteries of Aberlour, Alford, and several Others, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill, and Registering Births, &. (Scotland) Bill.—From the Parish Schoolmasters of Kirkwall, for Improvement in the present System of Parochial Education, Scotland.—By the Marquess of Breadalbane, from the Ministers and Members of several Religious Bodies in Glasgow, and other Places, against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome, Bill.—From Dumfries, for the Prevention of Sunday Travelling on Railways.—From the Magistrates and Town Council of Perth, for the Repeal of the Law of Entail, Scotland.—From the Parish of St. Mary, New Ross, against the present System of National Education, Ireland.—From the Clergy of Ipplessen and
1222
Plympton, against any Addition to the Conditions of Parliamentary Grants to National Schools.—From Tillicoultry, for the Repeal of the Game Laws.—From the Clergy of Cadbury, for Increasing the Number of Bishops.—From the Clergy of Cornwall, and Others, for an Alteration of the Law relative to the Election of Bishops.—From Clergymen in the Deanery of Torrington, that the Clergy may be relieved from Assessment upon their Rent.

DIOCESE OF LINCOLN.
In reply to a question by Earl BROWN-LOW, having reference to some recent statements respecting the clergy of Lincoln,
The BISHOP of LINCOLN said: I feel obliged to the noble Earl for putting the question, and enabling me to offer an explanation upon the subject to which it relates. As soon as I read the report of the hon. Gentleman's (Mr. Horsman's) speech in the Times newspaper, which represented him to have said that two clergymen in Lincoln or the neighbourhood had died of starvation, thinking that such a statement cast a great stigma upon the clergy of the county, I requested the hon. Gentleman to furnish me with the names of the two clergymen. In his answer he tells me that the report in the Times is incorrect—that he did not state that two clergymen had died of starvation; but that he could give instances of clergymen who had died in such a state of destitution that it would hardly be too much to say that it was bordering on starvation. In confirmation of this, as I asked him for two cases, he enclosed an extract from a report made to him on the subject in January last, and of the correctness of which, in all essential points, he had no doubt. He adds, they are by no means the only cases of extreme destitution and suffering which he could cite:—
"In the parish of Auborne, six miles and a quarter from Lincoln, there died, in the year 1834, the Rev. Mr. Watkins, the vicar of that parish. He came there in 1810, a widower. Some years after he became afflicted with a cancer. Of course he stood in urgent need of the best medical assistance; but his income, 54 l. per annum, and that sometimes not regularly paid, precluded the possibility of his obtaining such advice. His disease became so terrible, and superadded to the misery of his position, weighed down his health and spirits so heavily, that he was driven to the consumption of opium in order to produce stupefaction. Thus he went on for several years. The services of the Church were of course neglected. Sometimes there was no service for six or nine weeks together. No administration of the sacrament for two years. A large dissenting chapel sprung up, and the district soon became, what it still remains, the focus of dissent. Sometimes, when the poor vicar awoke completely to a sense of his position, it is reported his feelings proved almost maddening. He had no one to care for

1223
him—not even a servant to look after him. He was obliged sometimes—so deep was his poverty—even to beg his daily bread. He was forced to the humiliating necessity of asking for the smallest sums of money from neighbouring clergy—not as a loan, but absolutely as a gift. At last death put an end to his sufferings, which it must indeed have required all the fortitude of a Christian minister to endure—agony of body, agony of spirit, agony of mind! He died with no other attendant about him than a charwoman; and he was buried at the cost and by the direction of the clergy of the adjacent villages. Nor is this a singular case of distress. Within the last few days a case has occurred in this very city, by no means dissimilar from that I have depicted. The incumbent of a parish of 95 l. a year, two miles from the cathedral, has died. His death was occasioned, I am sorry to say, by his own excesses, and therefore that amount of pity cannot be entertained for him that must be felt for the poor vicar of Auborne. But the account of his death—I have it from one cognisant of all the facts—is dreadful. He had been sometime ill; his wife was ill also. The only other person in the house was a little workhouse girl of fifteen or sixteen years of age—a dreadful beginning of life, indeed, for her. In the middle of the night this child was awoke by the poor man's groans. She went to his room, found him writhing in extreme agony, threw a sheet over him, and left him to expire. A dog could scarcely have died more wretchedly. It was not till late in the evening that any one could be got to approach the wretched death-bed. When they searched the house not a single coin of any kind, nor a single article of food, was to be found. The body of this clergyman of the Established Church of England and Ireland was interred at the cost of Archdeacon Bonney."
On the first of the two cases, which occurred fourteen years ago, when I was not resident in the county, and consequently could not be acquainted with the circumstances of individual clergymen in it, I can say little. I remember only that Mr. Watkins was represented to me as very poor; and, if my memory does not deceive me, he had once been confined for debt in Lincoln Castle; but I am confident that the neighbouring clergy would never have allowed him to die of starvation. The second is a recent case, and I know that Mr. Baker died in circumstances of extreme destitution; but he had contracted inveterate habits of drinking, and his death was the consequence of those habits. I know that he had borrowed money of the Dean of Lincoln within six weeks or two months of his death; but if a clergyman spends all that he receives in the purchase of intoxicating liquors, how can he do otherwise than die in extreme destitution? I will offer no further remarks on the hon. Gentleman's statement, because as the report in the Times, the only one which I have read, appears to be incorrect, I may be
1224
commenting on that which the hon. Gentleman did not actually say. He quoted a letter from a correspondent, giving an account of a clergyman who rode over the country performing several duties on the Lord's day, in churches at great distances from each other. My persuasion is, that this statement, if inquired into, would be found to relate to facts which took place some years ago. But I must be permitted to remark, that if the hon. Gentleman's correspondent had communicated the facts to the bishop of the diocese at the time when they took place, in order that means might be taken to prevent their recurrence, he would have shown a more sincere desire to correct the abuses in the Church than by the course which he has taken.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH rose to move—
"That there be laid before this House an Account of all Charges of which the Amount was voted and appropriated from the Public Revenue in 1838, and which were defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund in 1847; also of all Charges defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund in 1838, of which the Amount was voted and appropriated from the Public Revenue in 1847; showing the Amount of each several Charge in each year from 1838 to 1847, both inclusive, and whether defrayed from the Consolidated Fund, or voted and appropriated from the Public Revenue in each Year."
In bringing forward this Motion the noble Earl said, he wished particularly to draw their Lordships' attention to the great increase which had taken place in the sums expended in Miscellaneous Services every year for the last ten years. During that period there had been three Administrations in this country; and so far as the expenditure went there was no distinction to be made between them—there had been a progressive increase in the Miscellaneous Expenditure every year since 1838. While it was happily in the power of Government every year to propose the remission of some tax, because the revenue was annually increasing, and there was consequently an annual surplus of income over expenditure, it was natural there should be a disposition on the part of Government to adopt, and of Parliament not to discourage, some additional items of useful expenditure; but those days were now gone by, the revenue of the country was no longer equal to the expenditure, and their Lordships could not but perceive that there was on the part of the people a great reluctance to submit to any increase of taxation in order to equalise

1225
them. Nor could he entertain any hope, nor did he think their Lordships could nourish such hope, that there would be any material increase in the revenue of the country, with the present amount of taxation. The prosperity of the revenue of this country depended upon the export of our manufactures; and it was impossible, looking at the present distracted state of the Continent, to expect that we should be enabled for some years at least to increase our exports of manufactures to the Continent. If the convulsions on the Continent continued, it was impossible to imagine that our exports could increase, unless, indeed, those convulsions should continue so long as to utterly destroy the manufactures of the Continent, when a state of things might occur, such as had occurred at the conclusion of the last war, when we had the monopoly of the supply of the Continent; but however much he might desire the prosperity of his own country, he had no wish to see that prosperity produced by such a fatal result. But unless such an event should occur, there was no reasonable prospect of an increase in the revenue of this country. They were now defraying the surplus expenditure out of the balances of the Exchequer. That was a system which could not last; and the strictest economy, therefore, became an imperative duty on the Government and on the Legislature. It was because he was strongly impressed with this conviction that he was desirous of drawing the attention of their Lordships to the subject. He was satisfied they were now at the commencement of a great and protracted struggle. He did not mean to say that they were about to be engaged in war, but they were at the commencement of a state of convulsion among the States of the Continent, which would impose upon them the necessity of keeping up the defensive establishments of the country for some time to come in a state of preparation for war; for, however much we might desire to preserve peace, we did not know how soon war itself might be forced upon us. This was no time for the proposition of organic changes; he was satisfied that nothing but the absence of all agitation for organic changes could enable us to preserve our institutions secure amidst the wreck of the institutions of the nations around us. But while he said this, he said at the same time, it was the absolute duty of the Government, by every means in their power, to show the people of this country that their present constitu-
1226
tion gave them every practical advantage which had at any time been enjoyed in any country, under any constitution; but, above all, that could be best done by showing them that our present institutions were not only compatible with, but were best adapted to secure an economical and at the same time a controllable distribution of the national revenues. No Government could stand long that did not economise the national expenditure to the utmost possible extent; and if the Government should fall through want of economy, or by reason of financial difficulties brought upon them by a disregard of systematic economy, it would in its fall bring down with it a large portion of the constitution. He had thought it necessary to say these few words before drawing the attention of their Lordships to the immense increase which had taken place in the Miscellaneous charges during the last ten years. In the year 1838, besides the special and occasional charges, the total charge for Miscellaneous Services was 2,330,000 l., and in 1847 it was 3,659,000 l., showing an increase on the total charge for 1847, as compared with the total charge for 1838, of 1,327,000 l. But from the mode in which the accounts had been made out, the charges for the Irish Colleges did not appear in the Miscellaneous Expenses for 1837; in that year they were defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund; but they did appear in the Estimates for 1847, and they increased the Miscellaneous expenditure of that year by about 60,000 l., making the total apparent increase 1,387,000 l. There were however, to be deducted from the increase in 1847 certain charges which had been transferred from the poor-rates to the Miscellaneous Estimates, and which amounted to 123,000 l.; and also certain charges for the, maintenance of prisoners, which had been transferred from the county rates, and which amounted to 268,000 l. Neither did he think it fair to charge harbours of refuge, or the Caledonian Canal, to the Miscellaneous Expenditure of 1847; and, therefore, he would not charge the sum of 190,000 l., which appeared under those heads, to the Miscellaneous Expenditure of 1847. These items amounted together to 581,000 l. But, deducting all these charges, they would stiil find that the Miscellaneous Expenditure of the year 1847 exceeded that of the year 1838 by 805,000 l. This increase had taken place under various heads. Under the head of Public Works, with the exception of a

1227
slight diminution during one year of only 1,000 l. the expenditure had been continually increasing every year for the last ten years. Even in the very first column, "Public Buildings and Royal Palaces," there was a very large increase. There were two heads in particular, "Buckingham Palace" and "Home Office, Board of Trade, &.," in which the increase had been very large. Excluding all consideration of canals and harbours, from both 1838 and 1847, and comparing only public buildings and palaces, the charge in the former year was 215,219 l., and in the latter, 376,624 l.; making an increase in 1847 under these heads only of 161,405 l. The charge for Buckingham Palace alone was increased in 1847 to 50,000 l. But the excess in 1847 was not unsual or peculiar to that year. There had been an almost unvaried tendency to increase under this head during the whole period of ten years; and, still deducting harbours and canals, the charge on the average of 1838, 1839, and 1840, was 185 268 l., while, on the average of 1845, 1846, and 1847, it was 304,413 l., being an increase on the compared average of those years of 119,146 l. There was one charge under the head of Public Works, which he was exceedingly sorry to see. During the last ten years no less a sum than 844,700 l. had been expended in the building of the House in which their Lordships were then sitting. He admitted that it was a matter of absolute necessity that the two Houses of Parliament should be built; but he was confident that there was no person throughout the country who viewed with less pleasure than their Lordships the extravagant expenditure which had been lavished on the building of the two Houses of Parliament. He regretted to see that expenditure still going on, apparently without check. It might be very well to continue a lavish expenditure on the erection of these Houses, and to have a magnificent palace, if they could afford it; but even then, when he looked around him, he could not but express an opinion, that this was not the style of building fit for the palace of a nation in the maturity of its strength; it was more suited to the vain-glorious old age of a declining country. Rather than these lavish ornaments, he would like to see a plain building, suited to the plain habits of our ancestors; and he only hoped that they would transact the business of the country in this House as well as their predecessors had in the or-
1228
dinary and plain building with which they had been satisfied. There was also another charge under this head to which he wished to draw the attention of their Lordships. It was his desire that every possible accommodation should be afforded to the wearer of the Crown and to the members of the Royal Family—that the Sovereign should be placed in the position of the utmost possible comfort; but he could not but express his regret that the heavy charges for increased buildings for Buckingham Palace should have fallen upon the year 1847—the year of great public distress. It would be most satisfactory to add to the accommodation at Buckingham Palace, if the revenue could afford it; but he hoped that the Government would give the country an assurance that there should be no further expenditure under that head until the revenue should be equal to the expenditure. They might afford to build palaces out of a surplus revenue, but they could not afford to do so while the revenue was deficient. There was one charge, which was small in amount indeed, but which he hoped not to see again, for it was perfectly indefensible in the present condition of the country—it was an amount of 22,000 l. for a palm-house at Kew; and, again, there was another sum of 22,000 l. for Trafalgar-square—which seemed to be the Campus Martius of those who desired to overturn the constitution. A sum of 280,000 l. had been expended on the Caledonial Canal. Now, certainly the Caledonial Canal ought to be a work of great national benefit to authorise the continued expenditure of 50,000 l. a year on its works. In the charges of "Salaries to Officers in the Public Departments," after deducting the charges occasioned by the transfer of the business connected with the Poor Law Department, there was an increase of 164,000 l. He regretted to observe that there had been last year an excess of 88,000 l. under the head of printing for both Houses of Parliament in 1847, as compared with 1838: the charges for printing and stationery were, in 1844, 217,000.; in 1845, 226,000 l.; in 1846, 249,000 l.; and in 1847, 295,000 l. He hoped that the Members of the other House would consider, that by moving for the printing of papers and returns, they were greatly, and in some instances needlessly, increasing the public expenditure. There were other charges which required attention; indeed, it was impossible not to observe that there had been a great tendency to an increase in expenditure in all

1229
these charges, and especially in those under the head of Commissions. The Factory Commissions, for instance, began with an annual expenditure of 9,000 l.; in 1846 the expenditure had increased to 15,000 l.; and in 1847 it had amounted to 20,000 l. These were small items, but yet they required the attention of the Government; for the enormous increase in Miscellaneous Expenditure in 1847 over 1838 consisted of these small items. There was one charge, however, to which he must draw the attention of their Lordships. There had been an increase in the charges for the "Salaries of the Officers of the Privy Council Office and the Board of Trade." He knew that for some time that office had to conduct all the railway business of the country; but it was remarkable, that while the increased charge for that office amounted to 12,000 l. in ten years, the charge for 1847 exhibited a slight increase over that for 1846, although in 1846 the Railway Board had been established at an expense of 17,000 l. Surely when that Board had been established it was understood that the railway staff was to have been transferred from the Board of Trade to the Railway Board; and yet, notwithstanding the expenditure of 17,000 l. for the Railway Board, there had been an increase in the expenditure of the Board of Trade. It was satisfactory to observe, that although by the extension of the principle of centralisation there had been a great increase of business necessarily thrown upon the great departments of the State, yet there had been no great increase in the expenditure on that account; and any increase that there might have been under that head was more than counterbalanced by the diminution in the salaries of the officers of the two Houses of Parliament. There had been an increase, slight indeed, in the expenditure of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; it had increased from 2,500 l. per annum in 1838, to 3,444 l. in 1847. The expenses of the Poor Law Commission had increased from 54,000 l. to 59,000 l.; the Public Record Commission, from 2,063 l. to 12,812 l.; and the Inspectors and Superintendents of Factories, from 9,055 l. to 13,024 l. He could scarcely come across an item in which there had not been an increase. Under the head of "Law and Justice," there had been an increase of 444,000 l. in the year 1847, as compared with the year 1838. From this they would have to deduct a sum of 268,000 l. for the maintenance of prisoners, which charge
1230
had been transferred from the county rate to the Miscellaneous Expenditure in 1845, and that would leave a real increase of 176,000 l. To this, however, they must add law charges for England, on an average of three years, 27,666 l., making a total increase, under the head of "Law and Justice," of 204,059 l. Their Lordships would hardly believe that in the item of expenses of "Prisoners" alone, there had been an increase of 110,000 l., and this great increase had taken place concurrently with an increase in the expenditure for education, which they had been told was to diminish crime. In 1838 there had been expended under the head of "Education, Science, and Art," 70,000 l., and in 1847, 200,000 l.; if to that was added in both instances the charge for Maynooth, it would make the charge for education, exclusive of the sums voted for negro education, amount in 1838 to 107,000 l., and in 1847 to 284,000 l., showing an increase in the expenditure for education of 177,000 l. With regard to the British Museum, he found that in the last year there had been an expenditure of not less than 60,000 l., and the total sum expended in the course of the last ten years in building was 400,000 l,, while the purchases amounted to no less than 200,000 l. Again, the School for Economic Geology, although it had been commenced at an expenditure of 2,000 l. per annum, had risen to nearly 11,000 l. in the year 1845, and still cost 9,000 l. per annum. In 1847 there was voted for the "Encouragement of Arts and Sciences," under various heads, a sum of 234,000 l. After referring to the Colonial and Consular Services, the expenditure of which had considerably increased within the last few years, the noble Lord said that in the Commission for the suppression of the Slave Trade, which had commenced originally with an expenditure of 14,000 l. or 15,000 l., the charge had now risen to a sum of 23,000 l. The total sum expended in the course of eleven years was 1,307,000 l., and the average of the last three years was 146,000 l. He had mentioned the other night that there had been an enormous increase in the Mail Packet Service—the amount since 1831 had increased not less than 335,000 l. There was also a charge of 150,000 l. per annum for the staff of the Militia; but as that force had not been called out for a considerable period, it appeared to him that this expenditure was extravagant and unnecessary, and in these times of financial

1231
difficulty it ought to be done away with. Again, there were the enormous charges in connexion with the suppression of the slave trade. In addition to the treaty by which they were bound to maintain twenty-six vessels on the African coast, and the cruisers on the coast of Brazil, and in the Mozambique Channel, which were included in the "Navy Estimates," there were the charges for remuneration for special services, for the maintenance of the emancipated negroes, and for justices in the West Indies—a charge which was also connected with the slave trade—making a total of 82,350 l. under this head. All
these charges were matter of the most serious consideration. He, for one, was ready to give the Government everything that was necessary to maintain the public security and the public faith; but he must say that the increase which had taken place in many of those items of the public expenditure called for the greatest caution and the strictest investigation; and he thought it was absolutely necessary to postpone every charge which could be postponed without detriment to the public service, and to forego altogether every charge which the Government was not satisfied was absolutely necessary. The noble Earl concluded by moving for the returns of which he had given notice.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, the House was indebted to the noble Earl for the candour and ability with which he had brought forward the statement which he had just submitted to the House. He could assure the noble Earl that the matters to which he had referred were the subject of constant attention and consideration. He would admit that there had been of late years, not only under the present, but also under former Governments, a constant tendency to increase in the items for Miscellaneous Services and Expenditure, which were rendered necessary by the improved requirements of society. Many of the items were not only urged upon the Government, but had been absolutely forced upon them—they had hardly ever been resisted by any party in Parliament and the country, and the Government had even incurred some unpopularity in opposing them. Their Lordships would pardon him if he refrained from following the noble Earl through the various items to which he had referred. There were no means within the reach of Parliament, or of the Government, by which the wants of a constantly increasing
1232
population, and a constantly extending empire, could be provided for without increased estimates and increased expenditure; and it would be impossible to exercise the necessary amount of control without providing for the increase of the various establishments by which the business of the country was carried on. He would notice a few items, for the purpose of confirming what he had said. There was the case of the Royal Palaces, which came first in order, and snore especially Buckingham Palace. That had been originally built and occupied by a monarch who had no family; and of late years there had been a necessity for increased accommodation. But the opinion had of late been repeatedly expressed that it would be more becoming the dignity of the Crown and of the country, that instead of repairing and increasing Buckingham Palace, which was represented as unsightly and unsuitable for a Royal residence, an entirely new palace should be built for the Sovereign. The Government had been represented as insensible and unmindful of the dignity and comfort of the Royal Family, because they had not consented to build a new palace, which would perhaps have cost from 1,000,000 l. to 2,000,000 l. Who was it that resisted that expenditure? Her Majesty. Who had resisted it in Parliament? The Government of the day. Now, although the expenditure on that account had been large, it was inconsiderable compared with what would have been the expense of building a new palace. With regard to the Caledonian Canal, he could only say, that, after having expended so large an amount upon it, they would lay themselves open to the charge of very bad economy indeed if they had not voted the sum necessary to complete the works. The noble Earl had referred to the New Houses of Parliament; but he would remind him that it was the unanimous opinion of the country that the structure should be equally solid and magnificent. He should be sorry to see the design abandoned as regarded its main features, because he trusted they would be enabled to render the building a monument worthy of the country, and a matter of great pride to posterity. He felt, therefore, that while all the leading features of the design were being preserved, a judicious economy should be observed in carrying out the details, and that had been the case up to the .present time. He would remind their Lordships that the expense had been increased by rendering

1233
the New Houses of Parliament subsidiary to the encouragement of art; and although that encouragement had been extended somewhat more than was originally intended, he did not think the country would find fault with the additional expenditure thereby incurred. Then with regard to the British Museum, their Lordships must be aware that it was not what it was forty or thirty, or even twenty years ago. The Museum was now of almost unbounded extent, and its value and importance had been of late years considerably increased. It was impossible to have that magnificent collection properly arranged unless they had a suitable building and officers properly qualified to take charge of them. He believed there was no establishment of similar extent or value in the world in which the officers were paid so low a rate of remuneration, more especially when the learning and accomplishments which these men were required to possess were taken into account. The building was now fast approaching completion, and the expenditure on that account would very shortly cease. Again, with respect to the Superintendents and Inspectors of Factories—these officers had been appointed upon principles of the purest benevolence; and in order to make that interference with the internal arrangements of the trade of the country useful and available, and not vexatious and annoying, it was necessary that the carrying out of the intentions of the Legislature should be confided to such hands as would have the law conscientiously and carefully administered. No more was done than was required by the nature of the Acts of Parliament that had been passed; and without the aid of the able and intelligent men by whom the law was administered, the country would have derived no benefit from its own benevolent intentions. The increase of offices that had taken place in the Privy Council and the Board of Trade were nearly all connected with the extension of the grants for public education. In conclusion, he would assure their Lordships that the Government were deeply convinced of the importance of carrying on the public service with the greatest practicable regard to economy, and that the subject should continue to exercise their earliest attention.
The DUKE of RICHMOND thought it would be advisable to publish in future the costs of the voluminous papers which were moved for; because he believed that many of the economists in the other House of
1234
Parliament only moved for these returns for the purpose of gaining popularity with their constituents.
After a few words from Lord BEAUMONT,
The EARL of HARDWICKE said, he agreed with his noble Friend and the noble Marquess as to the necessity of their most carefully and studiously looking into the state of the public expenditure; but he did not agree with his noble Friend that the expenditure which took place in reference to great public works or great public boards was an expenditure taxing the community without considerable benefit. He was decidedly of opinion that any principle of expenditure which took from the pockets of the rich and gave to the poor was of great advantage; and such public works as the Houses of Parliament, a proper residence for the Sovereign, or keeping up a great public museum, were by no means such an expenditure as was a disadvantage to the public. He believed that that which the public chiefly complained of was the expenditure which went towards the salaries of the great public officers and the commissions which were continually being called for by every hon. Gentleman in the House of Commons, who thought it necessary that certain matters should be inquired into.
Returns ordered.
House adjourned.