Lords Sitting of 31 March 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths,—.Several Lords.
Reported—Borough Police Superannuation Fund.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Free Church Presbytery of Glasgow, and Free Church of Scotland, against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Home, Bill.—From Members of several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to the said Order.—From Manchester, for a Continuation of the Existing Law relating to the Importation of Corn.—From Shipowners, Merchants, Artisans, Mechanics, and others, of Brixham and Dartmouth, for the Appointment of a Select Committee, to Inquire into the Policy of the Navigation Laws.—From Ifield, against the Admission of Jews into Parliament.—From several Charitable Institutions in Dundee, praying to be Relieved from the Payment of Legacy Duty.—From the Clergy of Westham, for Relief from Assessment upon their Rent Charges.—From the Clergy of Chichester, relative to the Election of Bishops.

SUPPRESSION OF CRIME IN IRELAND.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, his noble Friend the President of the Council had last night laid on the Table of the House two important returns, one of them relating to the quantity of arms and ammunition that had been surrendered under the operation of the Crime and Outrage Act in Ireland, and the other to the quantity that had been seized or detained under the provisions of that Act. These returns were, no doubt, very important; but if they stood alone they would give but a very imperfect idea of the results which had flowed from that Act. He regretted, therefore, that
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his noble Friend did not accompany those papers with some remarks relative to the present state of Ireland, and the operation of the Act. It would be remembered that in the course of the discussion which took place when the Crime and Outrage Bill was passing through the House, various opinions were expressed, and remarks made, with regard to one class in particular—he alluded to the Roman Catholic clergy. Anticipations were then formed that the Act would be inefficient in preventing the recurrence of those offences which at the time were but too common in Ireland, as opposition from the clergy might be expected; and he thought the experience they had had since the Act was passed might enable the Government now to give the House some information on the subject. He thought, therefore, he was not asking too much from the noble Lord if he requested him to state what had been the conduct of those parties to whom he had referred, and what had been the general effect of the Act during the time it had been in operation?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad no hesitation in at once giving an answer to the question put by the noble Lord; and he was happy to say that he believed the answer would be satisfactory to his noble Friend and to the House. The noble Lord had adverted to the papers which he had laid on the table of the House yesterday, one of which referred to the execution of the Act which their Lordships, in conjunction with the other House of Parliament, had passed, for the collection and seizure of arms in Ireland, and for the prevention of crime. He was happy to state, that the effect of that Act had been that almost a complete stop had been put in most of the disturbed counties in Ireland to those scenes of violence and outrage that formerly existed; and he was informed that in one of the most disturbed of those counties, a degree of peace and quiet prevailed at the present moment equal to that which was experienced in any county in this part of the United Kingdom. In coming to this conclusion, he had the greatest satisfaction in being able to state that not only the lawful tribunals of the country, but the juries called upon to act in those tribunals, and the witnesses called upon to give evidence before them, had all discharged their respective duties in a manner that did honour to them, and which showed them to be deeply impressed with one sentiment—the importance of lending all the aid in

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their power in suppressing crime and restoring order. With respect to persons of a particular description who had been referred to by the noble Lord in connexion with the execution of that Act, viz., the Roman Catholic clergy, he was happy to say that the Roman Catholic clergy had in general, and with few exceptions indeed, lent their aid to the operation of the law. He had, further, the satisfaction of informing their Lordships, that with respect to subsequent circumstances in that country, on which he was not about to enter, and on which he was glad that the noble Lord had not entered, the most encouraging assurances had been offered to the Government. Certain menaces and threatenings of a different character from those which had provoked and carried the Act of Parliament to which he had alluded, had been heard in particular quarters, and had tended to create, if not actual disturbances, at least apprehension of disturbances; and he was glad to state that a very large proportion of that body (the Roman Catholic clergy) had been actively and industriously engaged in preventing those disturbances. He was the more bound to state this, because he had been under the painful necessity in the course of the present Session, of admitting his belief of the truth of certain statements made in that House with respect to the conduct of particular individuals belonging to that body. He felt it, therefore, to be the more his duty, and he was sure it would be the feeling of the House on that occasion, readily to recognise the improved spirit—the truly Christian spirit—and peaceful disposition of that body. He had the highest authority for stating that, in that part of the United Kingdom, they had greatly contributed to the preservation of order; and the only effect of the conduct of certain mischievous and evil-disposed persons—which had a tendency to create disturbance—had hitherto been to call forth a manifestation of zeal and attachment to the institutions of this country such as had not, he believed, been manifested with greater earnestness or greater readiness at any former period. In a short time, not less than 160,000 signatures were affixed to an address from every part of Ireland by persons of every class and rank in society, and, above all, by persons of all religious faiths, all expressing the greatest confidence in Her Majesty's Government, and the greatest desire to afford them effectual assistance in the preservation of the public peace.
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To what he had now stated, perhaps he might be permitted to add, that when it was notorious that in some of the great manufacturing towns, and particularly in Manchester, attempts had been made to prepare, at least, for a disturbance of the public peace, no less than sixteen Roman Catholic clergymen, forming the great body of that denomination in Manchester, had uniformly and zealously exhorted their congregations to abstain from any participation in those disturbances. He was entitled to state, therefore, that on the support of that body, acting in conformity with that which he trusted actuated the whole community. Her Majesty's Government might confidently rely for that assistance which possibly might be required at no distant period to maintain what he might say Her Majesty's Government were determined to maintain—the public peace and good order. He trusted he had answered fully the question put by the noble Lord, and he hoped that answer would be satisfactory both to the House and to the country. In conclusion, he earnestly hoped that the attention of that House would be directed to the condition of Ireland, with the view of acquiring that useful information which alone could enable them to deal in an efficient manner with the circumstances of that country, whatever they might be.
LORD STANLEYhoped he would be permitted to express, in one or two observations, the unanimous feeling of congratulation which all, on whatever side of the House they sat, must experience at the statement which the noble Marquess had been able to make; and he was the more desirous to do so, because undoubtedly he was one of those to whom his noble Friend (Lord Beaumont) had adverted, as having remarked upon the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy. He thought it was his duty, at an early period of the Session, to express his belief that, without attributing to the Roman Catholic clergy a desire to foment disturbances in the country, there were among them individuals whose denunciations from the altar had led to results which, probably, they never contemplated, but for which, nevertheless, they ought to be held morally responsible; and also that among the great body of the Roman Catholic clergy he did think there was a description of jealousy of conflicting authorities which led them to be more backward than other classes of the community to exercise that influence which their character and station

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gave them towards the preservation of the public peace, by means of, and through the instrumentality of, the law. He believed then, and he believed now, that the prevalent feeling among them was, that it was more for their interest that the preservation of the public peace should be attributed to their own influence and exertions, rather than to the operation of the law; and, consequently, they were back-ward in giving their assistance to those whose business it was to put the law in force. He rejoiced to hear that there was an indication of an altered spirit among the Roman Catholic clergy. He saw, with great satisfaction, the facts recorded in the public papers respecting the Roman Catholic clergy of the town of Manchester, and to which the noble Marquess had adverted. He had read also, with the greatest satisfaction, an address from Dr. M'Enery, of the most praiseworthy character, and one which, if generally imitated in its tone and spirit, would be a most powerful instrument in the preservation of peace and order. Undoubtedly, there were few subjects of congratulation to which we could turn our attention in the present state of Europe and of the world in general; but if there was one topic to which an Englishman might advert with a feeling of self-congratulation and no dishonourable pride, it was, that while every part of the Continent was agitated by the desire of change—while Thrones were crumbling into dust, as if they had no solid basis on which to rest—these manifestations had found but a faint response and echo in this country; and, so far from exciting any corresponding feeling here, had only induced the larger portion of the community, including the higher and the lower classes alike, to express their determination to maintain the law, and also their sympathy with the institutions of the country in which they lived, evidencing a resolution to co-operate with those whose duty it was to preserve the public peace, which had been found sufficient to overawe the small minority in this country who might be desirous of disturbing public tranquillity. With regard, then, to the state of affairs in this country, he thought that their Lordships might look to them with feelings of satisfaction and confidence, and also with a feeling of respect for those free monarchical institutions under which a spirit had been fostered which had been found sufficient to repress any indications of a desire to disturb the public peace,
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and which, he had no doubt, would be sufficient to support us in that hour of trial to which almost every other nation of Europe had been already subjected. He wished he could say that the same feeling prevailed to the same extent in Ireland. He allowed that, although the spirit of discontent was more widely spread in Ireland than in this country, there had been already a mitigation of that dangerous spirit among a large portion of the population, both Protestant and Roman Catholic, which led him to entertain the best hopes that this spirit of discontent might yet be put down without any necessity for a painful and bloody struggle. He trusted that the noble Marquess would give their Lordships credit, not only for not looking with indifference or want of anxiety to the state of things in Ireland, but also for the motives which had kept their Lordships silent, and which had prevented them from embarrassing, by any premature question, or by asking for any premature disclosure of the intentions of the Government, or by pressing on them any suggestions for the administration of that country, those who were responsible for the conduct of affairs there. At the present moment he would imitate the prudent conduct of the noble Lord who had put the question, and of the noble Marquess who had answered him, and be would not enter upon the present state of affairs in that country, alarming as it was. But he might be forgiven for saying, without reference to any specific measures of Her Majesty's Government, and looking as an irresponsible spectator at the affairs of that country, that the acts committed and the language held there in the course of the last few weeks appeared to him (for he would not suppose that the noble Earl at the head of the Government of Ireland was remiss in applying the powers of the law) to show that a difficulty existed of meeting certain classes of offences, not with an adequate, but with an appropriate punishment. It was impossible not to see that whilst the Legislature affixed the highest penalties to the crime of high treason, with no intermediate degradation, but a misdemeanor punishable with fine and imprisonment, that in all the various stages through which disturbances pass (the stages of sedition), until they eventually arrive at treason, there are classes of offences which may not be dignified with the name of treason, but which may go beyond the precise limits of sedition, or at least beyond the limits which fittingly is

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punishable by fine and imprisonment. It was impossible for their Lordships to conceal from themselves the fact, if they were to believe the public journals, that there was a body of persons in Ireland, possessed of no inconsiderable influence, who were stimulating the people to acts of open and undissembled treason, and who yet were not legally amenable to the punishment appointed by the law for that high crime, even if the position and character of these parties entitled them to be dignified with the attributes of State criminals. And yet the alarm and disturbance which these persons had occasioned, and the possible risk of bloodshed to which their attempts might lead, rendered them, in his mind, if not legally, at least morally liable to a punishment far greater and more prompt than the necessarily tardy progress of the law could inflict upon an indictment for a misdemeanor punishable by fine and short imprisonment. This appeared to him to be an error and a defect in the existing state of the law. He did not ask Her Majesty's Government if they had any intention of introducing any amendment in the law in this respect; but he did think, that under the circumstances of that country, on which the noble Marquess had entreated their Lordships to continue to bestow their anxious attention, a state of the law which, for all the gradations of sedition and treason, left no middle course between a prosecution for a misdemeanor, punishable only with fine and imprisonment, and a prosecution for high treason, imposed a painful alternative on those who desired to pre serve the tranquillity of Ireland.
LORD MONTEAGLEthought it of the greatest possible importance that it should be understood that the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland had, for the most part, been promoters of public order and tranquillity. He was glad to say that he had heard from the highest authority, that at the assizes which had just closed for the county of Limerick, the law had been most satisfactorily administered. Looking back for a period of twenty-five or thirty years, in no case had the law been more satisfactorily carried into effect there. A most improved spirit prevailed among the people themselves with respect to the violators of the law, and their determination to bring those violators to justice. He attributed this not only to the Bill which was passed at the end of the last Session of Parliament, but to the course taken by the noble Earl at the head of the Irish Government.
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He believed that their Lordships might hope for better things on the part of the peasantry of Ireland. The labourers would find that, whatever might be the consequences to others, revolutionary disturbances of the public peace were above all things dangerous to the interests of labour.
Subject at an end.
House adjourned.