Lords Sitting of 8 June 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Earl of Rosse.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Ecclesiastical Unions and Divisions of Parishes (Ireland); Independence of Parliament; Declaratory Suits.
2a Sale of Beer Regulation.
Reported.—Great Yarmouth Freemen Disfranchisement; Petty Bag Office.
3a and passed;—Tobago Relief and Immigration into British Guiana and Trinidad.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Bury, and other Places, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays.—From Leith and South Shields, against any Alteration in the Navigation Laws.—From Members of a Society of the Ancient Order of Foresters, Bristol, in favour of the Provident Associations Fraud Prevention Bill.—From Members of the Mauritius Association of London, complaining of the Effect produced by the Sugar Duties Act, and for Relief.—From Robert Owen, for a full and fair Examination of his Plans for Ameliorating the Con-
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dition of Mankind.—From London, for Alteration of Lunatic Act, and Lunatic Asylums, and Pauper Lunatic Acts.—From Kircudbright, against the Marriage (Scotland), and Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bills.

SALE OF BEER REGULATION BILL.
THE EARL OF HARROWBY THE EARL OF HARROWBY moved the Second Reading of the Sale of Beer Regulation Bill.
LORD MONTEAGLEconsidered that this Bill was one of great importance. The subject of the sale of spirituous liquors on the Sunday had of late been brought under their Lordships' notice by petitions; but he thought that any one who considered the matter would feel that it would be most unjust and oppressive to prohibit the sale of beer and other liquors on the Sunday. Their Lordships were aware that there was at present a direct prohibition, under penalties, of the sale of liquors on Sunday during the hours of divine service. The Act of Parliament which prohibited the opening of taverns and public-houses until after one o'clock on the Sunday in the metropolis, had certainly had a most beneficial effect in repressing crime, and in improving the moral condition of the people; and Mr. Rushton, the police magistrate of Liverpool, stated that the same result had followed the adoption of a similar regulation in that town. As the law now stood, persons to whom licenses were granted were prohibited from selling liquors during the hours of divine service; and if they violated that condition they were subjected to penalties which were immediately recoverable. He would therefore suggest to the noble Earl that he should propose the repeal of all penalties for violating the existing law, or the effect of this Bill would be to subject tavern keepers to double penalties.
LORD BROUGHAMconsidered this a very useful and safe Bill. No one could deny that the Sabbath was now much more strictly observed than was the case thirty or forty years ago; but he would recommend their Lordships not to overdo legislation with respect to Sabbath observances. He considered it of the greatest importance that the Sabbath should be duly observed; but he believed that nothing was more likely to prevent that observance than ill-advised legislation, which might interfere with the just relaxations of the people. He thought it would be convenient to refer the Bill to a small Select Committee.
LORD CAMPBELLobserved, that in London the principle upon which the present Bill was founded, had been proved by

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experience to act in a most admirable way, and he saw no reason why it should not be extended further.
LORD KINNAIRDsaid, he hoped that the Bill would be extended to Scotland. In fact, the whole system of licensing in that country required revision, for not only at grocers' shops, but at turnpike gates, spirits were sold. It had had a most demoralising effect. At these places change was often given in the shape of glasses of whiskey, if the parties desired it.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, he believed there was no part of the country which more required change of the laws in this respect than Scotland.
Bill read 2a.

MR. ROBERT OWEN.
LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from Mr. Robert Owen, praying that his plans for ameliorating the social condition of mankind may be fully and fairly examined. Mr. Owen was a gentleman who had ever entertained the most benevolent and tolerant views. He did not participate in the communist views of M. Louis Blanc and his colleagues. He was the advocate of peace. He stated that in the present excited state of Europe, when such a violent conflict was going on between the aristocratic and the democratic principles—a conflict which he (Lord Brougham) was happy to say was confined to beyond the seas, for we knew nothing of any such conflict here, for he believed there never was a time when republicanism was at a greater discount in this country than at this present moment; but this gentleman said, that truth could alone protect the people in their present half civilised state (that was his opinion) from the dangers by which they were surrounded, and he therefore again submitted his views on the subject of our political and social condition to the consideration of their Lordships. He said that by the creation of labour, plentiful means of subsistence might be found for the whole of the people. He (Lord Brougham) would take this opportunity of asking the noble Marquess, whether he had any means of ascertaining the extent and amount to which English capital had been invested within the last fifteen or twenty years in foreign trade, foreign loans, and foreign works in America, in Spain, in Portugal, in Belgium, and in France? He was constantly applied to for information on this subject. He wished to know whether the Government had any information,
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particularly with respect to France? A very short answer was often given. It was often said to these poor people who had lost their money—"It served you right for taking your capital abroad." If we were to have trade and commerce—if we were not to shut ourselves within a brazen wall—how was it possible for some capital not to go abroad?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am afraid that I can give my noble and learned Friend but little satisfaction. We have no information on the subject. Government has no right to interfere with the application of capital. Much good might be done by means of private inquiry; but those means are quite as much at the disposal of my noble and learned Friend as of the Government.
House adjourned.