Lords Sitting of 5 June 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Viscount Lorton
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Protection of Females; Tobago Relief and Immigration into British Guiana and Trinidad; Cruelty to Animals Prevention; Collectors of Cess (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Northleach and Newton Abbott, for the Adoption of Measures for the Better Suppression of Vagrancy.—From several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows (Manchester Unity), for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order; and in favour of the Provident Associations Fraud Prevention Bill,—From Rhyme (Aber-

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deen), for Facilitating the Attainment of Sites for the Scotch Church.—From the Trustees of several Charitable Institutions, praying that they may be relieved from the Legacy Duty on Bequests made to them.—From Bide-ford, and several other Places, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays.—From West Redford, for the Discontinuance of Grants of Money to the Temple of Juggernaut, and other Temples, in India.—From Hastings, for the Adoption of Measures for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution.—From Liverpool, against any Alteration in the Navigation Laws.

THE IRISH POOR LAW.
LORD MONTEAGLErose to move for—
"A copy of the Circular of the Pool Law Commissioners of Ireland, dated the 23rd May, 1848, respecting the Administration of Relief to the Families of Parties retaining Possession of Land, contrary to the 10th and 11th Vict., c. 31, s. 10."
He said that he had to complain of the extraordinary discretionary and almost legislative powers which were assumed by the Irish Poor Law Commissioners; and he begged to call the attention of the noble Marquess near him (the Marquess of Lansdowne) to this subject, because, under the recent Act of the Legislature, the Government were responsible for the administration of the poor-law. The Secretary for Ireland in that country, and the noble Marquess and his Colleagues in this country, were responsible to the House and to the public for the due administration of the poor-law. He (Lord Monteagle) wished to call the attention of the Government to an act on the part of the Irish Poor Law Commissioners which required explanation and justification. A provision was introduced in both the English and Irish Poor Law Acts, binding up families together, and making relief to the child relief to the parent, and relief to the wife relief to the husband. After considerable discussion a clause was introduced in the Irish Poor Law Act which provided that relief should not be afforded to any person who held more than a quarter of an acre of land; and, if a person so situated applied for relief, he could only obtain it on the condition of surrendering his holding, He was informed, however, that notwithstanding this express enactment, a circular letter had been addressed by the Irish Poor Law Commissioners to all the boards of guardians in Ireland, instructing them that it would he their duty to give relief to every member of the family of any individual holding land to any possible extent, who might apply for relief, notwithstanding the refusal of such individual to surrender his land under the provisions of the Act of Parliament. Now, by this circular the
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Commissioners were setting aside the statute law, and substituting for it their own mere dictum, and he thought it was necessary that some explanation should be afforded on the subject.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad not the least objection to the production of the paper for which the noble Lord had moved; but he begged to state that he had seen the circular to which the noble Lord referred to-day for the first time, and he was therefore unable at present to make any statement as to the grounds on which that circular had been issued. He (the Marquess of Lansdowne) must abstain from expressing any opinion until he had received some information from the Poor Law Commissioners on the subject.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that probably the opinions of the law officers of the Crown had been taken by the Commissioners; and if that were the case, he would suggest that their opinions should be appended to the return.
LORD CAMPBELLconsidered that it would be a most objectionable proceeding to require that the opinions of the Crown officers should be produced. If their Lordships called for the production of such opinions as to the construction of an Act of Parliament, they might call for more confidential opinions given by the law officers of the Crown, as to the institution of prosecutions, or matters of that nature.
LORD STANLEYwould be glad to know if this most important circular, effecting a great alteration in the operation of the poor-law in Ireland, had been issued with or without the consent of Her Majesty's Ministers? The Government were responsible for the working of the poor-law, and for that alteration also; and he wished to know whether or not the Poor Law Commissioners in Ireland had taken upon themselves to direct such a change in the law, independently of Her Majesty's Ministers?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas understood to say that the Government were still ignorant of the reasons which had induced the Commissioners to issue the circular; but that he had no doubt the Secretary for Ireland had given his consent to it, and would be able to state his reasons for doing so.
After some further conversation,
Motion agreed to.

AFFAIRS OF ITALY.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYinquired whether any communications had

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been received by the Government from Her Majesty's Ministers at Rome, Naples, and Florence, relative to the extraordinary circumstance of the troops of those States having entered the Austrian territories in Italy, and having made war without any violation, as far as was known, on the part of Austria of the arrangements existing under the Treaty of Vienna?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEcould give a very short answer to the question. It was undoubtedly true, as might naturally be expected, that Her Majesty's Ministers abroad had made communications to the Government at home relative to those transactions to which the noble Marquess had alluded; but Her Majesty's Government, not conceiving that there were any existing treaties or obligations which required them directly, imperatively, and forcibly to interfere with respect to those occurrences, certainly did not think that any communication should be made to Parliament on the subject.

THE LATE DISTURBANCES.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he could not but avail himself of the opportunity of again calling the attention of the House to the state of things existing nearer home. The mischief of which he had on a former occasion spoken still continued to prevail. The crying evil still reigned in the metropolis—that it was nightly convulsed by tumults, and by the disorders of a perfect ochlocracy—that the peace of the community was all but broken up and destroyed—and that the tranquillity and rest of Her Majesty's subjects were nightly broken. Alarm was everywhere spread abroad—trade was interfered with, and, above all, the worst possible habits were beginning to be formed among the people—he meant the habit of large bodies of lawless men co-operating and acting together for lawless purposes, to the contempt of the law, while they acquired experience in working together in combined masses—a state of things between which and war there was but a shadow of difference. But, more than this, the most painful state of feeling was beginning to spring up, on the part of the citizens and of the police, towards those who were creating these disturbances. It had been represented to him (and while believing it to be true, he could not wonder at it) that the greatest feeling of exasperation prevailed among the various persons interested in the maintenance of order, against those who were doing
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their utmost to disturb it. They avowed that their intention was not to expose themselves to any risk, but to keep up these illegal and most unseemly proceedings, until they should have exhausted the police, the special constables, and all but exhausted the military themselves. He did hope that some attention would be paid, and that speedily, to this most important subject.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas not at all surprised that his noble and learned Friend should again call the attention of the House to this subject. It was one to which the attention of Parliament would naturally be directed until these proceedings of habitual disturbance were put an end to. All he was prepared to say was, that measures had been taken which, in the opinion of the Government, would put an end to them. He had every reason to hope that those measures would be successful; but, if they were not, undoubtedly the attention of Parliament would be called to the subject.

GREAT YARMOUTH FREEMEN DISFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
The EARL of DEVON The EARL of DEVON moved the Second Reading of this Bill, observing that the corrupt proceedings which had been brought to light by inquiries made by the other House of Parliament had led to the introduction of the measure.
The DUKE of RICHMONDsuggested that the most effectual means of preventing bribery at elections would be the prosecution by the law officers of the Crown of agents and others who were discovered to be guilty of illegal practices.
LORD BROUGHAMthought that the suspension of the writ in such cases as the present was an improper course to be taken, because the borough was thus left unrepresented, while it was contending for political life or death. At such a juncture it should not be left without representatives, though, if found guilty of corruption, it might be disfranchised for the future.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, that the course which the noble Lord proposed to pursue appeared to him to be, under the circumstances, free from objection.
Bill read 2a.

PROTECTION OF FEMALES.
The BISHOP of OXFORDrose to move the Second Reading of a Bill for the Protection of Females. In proceeding with this measure, it would, on the present oc-

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casion at least, not be necessary for him to trouble their Lordships at any length. He was quite aware that, in bringing this subject under their notice, a great and painful question might be opened; but he begged it to be distinctly understood, that his present intentions were limited to proceeding through one stage with a measure which was simply intended for purposes of protection. By the Bill which he held in his hand no attempt was made for the suppression of brothels; but it was, on the contrary, intended for the prevention of one great evil to which this metropolis and other large cities were exposed; he alluded to the practice of entrapping, by unfair arts, young and unsuspecting females. From the best returns which he could obtain, it did appear that within the metropolis there were as many as 80,000 women who lived by prostitution; and there was every reason to believe that at least one-fourth of that number were brought to the deplorable state of wretchedness and misery in which they were to be found by the arts against which this Bill was directed. It was a fact which admitted of clear and indisputable proof, that many persons made an infamous livelihood by waiting at the different accesses from the country to this great city for the purpose of entrapping unwary young persons; and, under the pretence of procuring them situations, inducing those who arrived without friends or a knowledge of London to accompany them to their abodes of infamy, where, in a condition often of unconsciousness, their ruin was effected, and where violence itself was frequently resorted to in those dark and accursed places. For those evils, if it were at all possible for them to afford a remedy, no time ought to be lost in its application. Whatever differences of opinion might exist as to the practicability of putting down brothels by means of legislation, there could be no doubt that friendless and unsuspecting females were entitled to the protection of the Legislature; and he hoped that a measure might now pass both Houses of Parliament which should go a great length towards saving from prostitution all excepting those who wilfully entered upon that course of life. He felt at the outset, and he was now more than ever convinced of, the difficulty of so framing a measure as that it should meet the evils of the case. Since this Bill had been drawn up, he had himself perceived some defects in it; and one or two friends had kindly pointed out to him other im-
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perfections, so that in its present form he feared that it would be utterly futile; yet, just at present, he was not desirous of proposing any alteration in the Bill, though he had prepared the Amendments which appeared to him to be necessary. What he proposed was, that the Bill should now be read a second time, and then referred to a Select Committee. There would doubtless be some difficulty in proving the words for "their own lucre or gain," as also in defining the word "seduction;" but these and the other difficulties of the case might, he hoped, be surmounted by the labours of a Select Committee. Before he sat down, however, he wished to observe that he proposed, that instead of the county being put to the expense of prosecution, it should be paid by the parties prosecuted. Upon the details of the measure it was not necessary that he should now trouble their Lordships further; but this he would say, without fear of contradiction, that it was the duty of Parliament to make an effort to prevent the great moral destruction that was going on under their eyes. He need not remind their Lordships that it was one essential part of the duty of the Legislature to provide for the avoidance or stoppage of great moral delinquencies. He knew as well as anybody that they could not by Act of Parliament make either men or women moral; but there was a principle of the law which recognised the duty of protecting those who needed protection from the arts of those who sought to make a profit of their unwariness and simplicity, He thought, that any step in this direction would be a great gain; and if a Bill could be framed which would make this abominable traffic more difficult—which might be avoided in many instances; but which would occasionally subject to punishment its violator—if they could effect but this, they would have done a great deal. There was no step, let their Lordships remember, more irretrievable, no step more irremediable, than that which this Bill was intended, in some instances at least, to guard against. The second downward step followed the first by such necessary and immediate sequence, that it was scarcely possible to conceive a destruction more certain than that brought about by the particular crime which this Bill was intended to punish. That crime involved the ruin both of soul and body—it involved a reduction from a state of happiness to such a condition of misery as the mind recoiled from the contemplation of—such a state of

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physical suffering—of conscious degradation—of utter hopelessness—as but too often to drive its unhappy victims to suicide itself as the only possible method of severing themselves from the courses of wretchedness and guilt in which they had become entangled.
LORD BROUGHAMseconded the Motion that the Bill be then read a second time. Although the measure in its present form required some alterations, yet on the whole it was open to none of those objections that had been successfully urged against other measures of a similar description. Every one must feel that the greatest difficulties beset the path of those who sought to legislate upon subjects of this description; but that formed no reason for opposing the present Bill. He would say to their Lordships, do not reject the Bill as impossible, but rather let it be considered by a Select Committee; for a body so constituted would probably be best qualified to deal with it. The difficulties in its way were great, but not insurmountable; and he ventured to hope that the improved condition of society in the present age would favour their efforts. This improved condition, he could not help saying, was observable not only in the higher morals of these days, but in the better observance of the Sabbath, which, in our Church at least, had of late years become remarkable.
Bill read 2a
House adjourned.