The LORD CHANCELLORthen moved the Second Reading of the Charity Trust Regulation Bill. The object of the measure was to remove some acknowledged inconvenience and difficulties which bad arisen in the administration of charitable trusts. When the Municipal Corporation Reform Bill was carried, Parliament decided that charitable trusts previously administered by those municipal bodies should be removed from under the control of the corporations. Then the difficulty was felt with respect to the authority to which those trusts should he transferred; a contest arose as to who should appoint trutees for the administration of those charities. It was necessary that a proposition should be made to meet the difficulty. The trustees who had been appointed had in the meantime ceased to act in consequence of death or of removal; and the necessity had arisen for making application to the Court of Chancery for the purpose of filling up the number of trustees in a variety of cases. As the law at present stood, there was no means of filling up those vacancies except by the very expensive process of applying to the Court of Chancery. It seemed expedient, then, to found some jurisdiction which should exorcise the power of nominating trustees without incurring the necessity of applying to the Court of Chancery. Another 899 evil was, that there were a great many very small charities which could not afford to come to the Court of Chancery. It was necessary that these should be subjected to a certain supervision for the purpose of ascertaining whether the funds were applied to the purposes for which they were intended. The law afforded those charities no protection at present. Of charities under 30l. a year, equivalent to a capital of 1,000l. in the funds at 3 per cent, there were 23,746; but it might be said that there were 28,304 which could hardly be said to have any remedy at all in regard to the appointment of trustees. Now, the attention of the Government had been directed to the judges of the county courts. By the County Courts Act, sixty local judges had been appointed. The operation of those courts had been most beneficial—beneficial, indeed, to an extent which nobody had expected. The experience of the last year had been more favourable than that even of the first year. From November, 1846, to November, 1847, the sixty judges had disposed of 429,415 suits; and when it was recollected that, for the great majority of these suits, there was no other practical remedy—for the parties were virtually debarred from appealing to the higher courts—their benefit would be at once admitted. The sum received during the same period amounted to 600,559l., including fees and sums payable by the losers of suits. The fees alone amounted to 203,318l.—a sum such as made it the duty of those who had the jurisdiction, namely, the Lords of the Treasury, very much to reduce those fees. The increase, comparing the last year with the first, had been such that it appeared quite possible to reduce the fees one-half. The object, then, of this Bill was to provide that charities under 30l. a year should be subjected to the jurisdiction of the judges of the county courts, without altering the law which was applicable to those charities at present. The greater part of the clauses applied to that object; but there were other objects for which it had been thought proper also to make provision. One of these was, to get rid of the difficulty arising from the absence of legal estate, and to provide that, by order of the county court or the Court of Chancery, the legal estate should be vested in the treasurer of the county court. It was proposed that the report of the Charitable Trusts Commissioners, which contained a statement of the value of the different charities, 900 should be conclusive as to the charities which should come under the operation of the measure. There was also a clause enabling the judge of the county court or the Court of Chancery to transfer stock in the name of the treasurer of the county court. It would also be provided that the parties administering charity funds should annually bring their balance-sheet to the clerk of the county court. It was also proposed that small trusts for educational purposes should be under the jurisdiction of the county courts, but subject to appeal to the Educational Committee of the Privy Council. He had now stated the provisions of the Bill, which, as he had already observed, would provide a remedy for many anomalies and evils that now existed in the administration of trusts amounting only to a small sum; and he would therefore move that the Bill be read a second time.
§ LORD REDESDALEhad no other objection to the second reading of the Bill beyond what arose from the time at which it had been brought forward. He regretted that a measure of so much importance should not have been introduced at an earlier period of the Session; it had been laid on their Lordships' table only on the 13th of July. What hope was there that a Bill dealing with so great a variety of interests could now be satisfactorily proceeded with? The number of charities under 30l. a year was very great, and existed all over the country; and therefore he hoped that a measure involving questions so varied and extensive would not be persisted in this Session. As to the charitable funds for educational purposes, he must say that he did not think the parties to whom their management was to be intrusted by the Bill were well adapted for such a duty. He thought also that any single individual having the power to appear before the judge and calling for inquiry, would have the effect of involving these small charities in greater expenses than they were able to bear. The whole question, however, was one which, no doubt, called for the deepest consideration; and for that very reason he hoped the noble and learned Lord would not attempt to pass the Bill during the present Session. The Bill might have been brought in at the commencement of the Session, and therefore they had a right to complain that it had not made its appearance till July. He thought this was a good constitutional ground of objection, and therefore, if he had no other reason, 901 this would warrant him in objecting to the measure being proceeded with this year.
The BISHOP of LLANDAFFthought the Bill in its general purpose would he found to be beneficial; and as he believed that small trusts would be bettor managed under its provisions than they now wore, he hoped it would meet the umanimous concurrence of his right rev. Brethren, He must say, however, that, considering what the noble and learned Lord had said as to the importance of the Bill, they had a right to ask how it came to pass that it had so long been delayed? He would not now enter upon the general question; but he must say that he cordially approved of the appeal to the Committee of Privy Council with reference to the small charitable educational trusts. He believed it would be found that the greater part of those trusts were left by the donors for educational purposes in accordance with the principles of the Church of England; and it was desirable that the Committee of the Privy council should see that they were administered in accordance with those wishes.
§ The EARL of HARROWBYconsidered it an object of great necessity that some such Bill as the present should be carried; but at the same time he must concur in the observations made by the noble Earl, that it was unfortunate the measure should have been so late in being introduced. The clause having reference to educational trusts was, in his opinion, by far the most important in the Bill; and considering that the subject of education was one upon which the greatest difference of opinion existed, and looking to the difficulty of consulting the feelings and interests of those who would be affected by the measure, he was afraid they were not likely, at this period of the Session, to come to any satisfactory result. They must bear in mind that these small trusts for educational purposes were spread all over the country, and that the question would be a very difficult one indeed to settle.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, a Bill containing the greater part of the provisions in the present measure was brought in by him last Session, and therefore there had been time to consider it for the last twelve months. No objection was then made to the Bill, and he did not anticipate that there would be any on the present occasion. Indeed, he had heard no objection to the general principle of the Bill; and the only point on which there appeared 902 to be a difference of opinion was on that relating to the educational trusts. The noble Lord (Lord Redesdale), though be appeared to differ from the proposal laid down in the Bill, did not suggest any other course which ought to be followed. There was no doubt that the educational question was one of extreme importance, and beset with difficulties, and yet it was one they must deal with. It had been said these charity funds were spread all over the country; but he regarded that as a reason why they should be as speedily as possible dealt with, and why a remedy should be applied for their better regulation.
§ Bill read 2a.
§ House adjourned.