Lords Sitting of 27 July 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Highland Roads and Bridges (Scotland); Charity Trusts Regulation.
Reported.—Prisons; Ecclesiastical Patronage Suits Compromise (Ireland)
3a and passed:—Public Health; West India Islands Relief.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Guardians of the Barnet Union, in favour of a more Extended System of Emigration.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
LORD CAMPBELL LORD CAMPBELL moved the Third Reading of the Bill.
The BISHOP of LONDONcould not allow this Bill to pass without expressing his great satisfaction at the result of their Lordships' concession to the wishes of several Members of their Lordships' House in referring this Bill to a Select Committee. That Select Committee had laboured assiduously and fulfilled the promise which was given to their Lordships, that there should he no unnecessary delay in submitting an improved measure to their Lordships. He considered they had improved the measure in many important respects; and that it would go down to the other House in such a form as that no reasonable objection could be made to it. He considered, indeed, that a Bill more important to the welfare of the public had not been passed for many years. He could not help alluding to one amendment—which, he trusted, he might be allowed to call an improvement—which he himself had the honour of proposing to the Select Committee, and which had met with their concurrence—he meant an amendment to the effect that in certain cases, where it should be shown, by comparison with past periods, that a more than average rate of mortality was taking place, the General Board might interfere without any application

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being made to them. He thought that when it was their wish to improve the sanitary condition of the country, the introduction of such a clause was a decided improvement to the Bill. In his opinion, the present might be called the Poor Man's Bill. He had always held that in any regulations for the improvement of the sanitary condition of the country the welfare of the labouring part of the population ought to receive especial attention, for in those matters the rich would take care of themselves. He was therefore thankful to their Lordships for having passed so important and salutary a measure.
Bill read 3a and passed.

THE STATE OF IRELAND.
LORD BROUGHAM: My Lords, I wish to ask my noble Friend opposite a question. Your Lordships must be aware that in times like the present, when every sort of subterfuge is resorted to to excite public curiosity, and to practise upon the public credulity, every well-thinking party of the community has a right to expect from our hands that we should protect them from the effects of those alarms which it is the principal object of such speculators upon public curiosity and credulity to create. Now, my Lords, I saw an account to-day which I believe there is no foundation whatever for, as to what is said to have taken place in Ireland. I must, however, say I was not very much alarmed myself, because the statements were so overdone, and so grossly exaggerated, particularly in respect to the accounts of the troops being defeated, and of their not having done their duty. I knew very well that there could be no foundation whatever for them—that it was quite impossible they could be There. There were circumstances connected with those statements which utterly discredited the whole story. Looking to the date of this intelligence, it is quite clear that if this news was known in Dublin yesterday—of course if that were the case, Her Majesty's Government would be in possession of the information quite as early as any which could be received from the disseminators of the news. I hope my noble Friend will excuse me for asking whether I am not quite correct in that opinion, and whether this intelligence has not been grossly exaggerated, if not altogether an unfounded story? I am afraid of the mischievous consequences of gathering together the materials of disorder and discontent. An outbreak might thus at any moment
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occur. I should not be alarmed at any such outbreak taking place, however much I might lament the consequences. I hope, however, that the public will not be alarmed if even there be some little foundation for this alleged outbreak.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that his noble and learned Friend was quite right in stating that very great ingenuity was manifested at present in the invention and propagation of rumours. With respect to the reports to which the noble and learned Lord had referred, as to outbreaks in Ireland, he had the satisfaction to state that there was a probability—amounting almost to certainty—that they were altogether unfounded, or that at least they rested on the slightest possible foundation. He assured the House that the Government were in possession of a despatch from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, dated three o'clock yesterday afternoon, which came to them by a special messenger, and which contained nothing relating to any outbreak. He might also mention, that subsequent to the arrival of that messenger they had received a letter, dated six o'clock—[Lord BROUGHAM: From Dublin?] Yes, from Dublin—and that letter was equally silent with respect to such an event. He, therefore, confidently believed that nothing of the kind, at least to the extent stated, had up to that moment occurred. He was sorry he could not state to his noble and learned Friend that there was not great probability of outbreaks occurring in the particular quarters to which rumour had already attributed them. It was known that the leaders had left Dublin and betaken themselves to those quarters; and it was also known that they were delivering treasonable and inflammatory speeches, calling upon the people immediately to rise and stand by what they called the cause of Ireland. It was very probable, therefore, that there might be some outbreak; but he trusted it would be attended with consequences far different from what had been reported.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY, as an Irishman, begged to say that he did not go along with certain observations which had been made on that (the Opposition) side of the House, as to the delay on the part of Her Majesty's Government in bringing forward severe measures for Ireland. He thought they had been perfectly right in exercising, up to the last moment, every kind of leniency, with the view of bringing the deluded people back to a sense

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of their duty. The noble Lord at the head of the Government of Ireland had, he thought, conducted his administration with great prudence and dexterity. He had wisely given these unfortunate people rope enough; and had, up to the present moment, it appeared, found means to arrest their violent proceedings. When other portions of Ireland were in a disaffected state, they could, at all events, derive some consolation from the fact that at least the north of Ireland was loyal, and could be well depended on. Even should they be deluged in civil war, the north would be found well attached to British connexion, and would save this country from anything like foreign interference. He thought, however, the Government had incurred great responsibility in consenting to the repeal of the Arms Act in Ireland; for he believed that if that Act had continued in force, the country would not now have been in its present condition.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: Perhaps the House will allow me to state that I have just received information dated seven o'clock, Dublin, an hour later than the former communication to which I have referred; and this letter states that nothing whatever has as yet occurred of an outbreak. It is, therefore, totally impossible, my Lords, that these events so rumoured could have taken place.
LORD BROUGHAM: I have been speaking to a friend who came over from Dublin in the last packet, and he had beard nothing of the kind alluded to until be arrived in Liverpool.

THE LAW OF MARRIAGE.
The BISHOP of LONDON, referring to the Report of the Commission on the Law of Marriage which had been laid upon the table of the other House, begged to ask the noble Lord the President of the Council, whether Her Majesty's Government were prepared to sanction the introduction of a Bill into either House of Parliament on that subject during the present Session; or whether they would not rather deem it expedient at once to delay the consideration of the question till next Session? If delayed till next Session, the Bill ought then to be brought in as early as possible, because it would necessarily give occasion to a deal of discussion, there being much difference of opinion on it among the clergy and laity. At all events, it was a question of the gravest importance, and ought not be discussed at this late period
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of the Session, when Parliament had more business on hand than they could well dispose of.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that this question had not been taken up by Her Majesty's Government at all, but by a learned individual, a Member of the other House of Parliament (Mr. S. Wortley), entirely unconnected with the Government, but who was well qualified by his learning and talents for dealing with this difficult subject. That right hon. Gentleman had, he understood, given notice of his intention to introduce a measure on the subject; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) was not prepared to say that Her Majesty's Government would refuse their assent to the introduction of such a Bill even in the present Session of Parliament, although he agreed with his right rev. Friend that in the present state of public business, and with the multitude of Bills now before Parliament, it was very undesirable that it should be passed, or even discussed, in the present Session.

CHARITY TRUST REGULATION BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLORthen moved the Second Reading of the Charity Trust Regulation Bill. The object of the measure was to remove some acknowledged inconvenience and difficulties which bad arisen in the administration of charitable trusts. When the Municipal Corporation Reform Bill was carried, Parliament decided that charitable trusts previously administered by those municipal bodies should be removed from under the control of the corporations. Then the difficulty was felt with respect to the authority to which those trusts should he transferred; a contest arose as to who should appoint trutees for the administration of those charities. It was necessary that a proposition should be made to meet the difficulty. The trustees who had been appointed had in the meantime ceased to act in consequence of death or of removal; and the necessity had arisen for making application to the Court of Chancery for the purpose of filling up the number of trustees in a variety of cases. As the law at present stood, there was no means of filling up those vacancies except by the very expensive process of applying to the Court of Chancery. It seemed expedient, then, to found some jurisdiction which should exorcise the power of nominating trustees without incurring the necessity of applying to the Court of Chancery. Another

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evil was, that there were a great many very small charities which could not afford to come to the Court of Chancery. It was necessary that these should be subjected to a certain supervision for the purpose of ascertaining whether the funds were applied to the purposes for which they were intended. The law afforded those charities no protection at present. Of charities under 30 l. a year, equivalent to a capital of 1,000 l. in the funds at 3 per cent, there were 23,746; but it might be said that there were 28,304 which could hardly be said to have any remedy at all in regard to the appointment of trustees. Now, the attention of the Government had been directed to the judges of the county courts. By the County Courts Act, sixty local judges had been appointed. The operation of those courts had been most beneficial—beneficial, indeed, to an extent which nobody had expected. The experience of the last year had been more favourable than that even of the first year. From November, 1846, to November, 1847, the sixty judges had disposed of 429,415 suits; and when it was recollected that, for the great majority of these suits, there was no other practical remedy—for the parties were virtually debarred from appealing to the higher courts—their benefit would be at once admitted. The sum received during the same period amounted to 600,559 l., including fees and sums payable by the losers of suits. The fees alone amounted to 203,318 l.—a sum such as made it the duty of those who had the jurisdiction, namely, the Lords of the Treasury, very much to reduce those fees. The increase, comparing the last year with the first, had been such that it appeared quite possible to reduce the fees one-half. The object, then, of this Bill was to provide that charities under 30 l. a year should be subjected to the jurisdiction of the judges of the county courts, without altering the law which was applicable to those charities at present. The greater part of the clauses applied to that object; but there were other objects for which it had been thought proper also to make provision. One of these was, to get rid of the difficulty arising from the absence of legal estate, and to provide that, by order of the county court or the Court of Chancery, the legal estate should be vested in the treasurer of the county court. It was proposed that the report of the Charitable Trusts Commissioners, which contained a statement of the value of the different charities,
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should be conclusive as to the charities which should come under the operation of the measure. There was also a clause enabling the judge of the county court or the Court of Chancery to transfer stock in the name of the treasurer of the county court. It would also be provided that the parties administering charity funds should annually bring their balance-sheet to the clerk of the county court. It was also proposed that small trusts for educational purposes should be under the jurisdiction of the county courts, but subject to appeal to the Educational Committee of the Privy Council. He had now stated the provisions of the Bill, which, as he had already observed, would provide a remedy for many anomalies and evils that now existed in the administration of trusts amounting only to a small sum; and he would therefore move that the Bill be read a second time.
LORD REDESDALEhad no other objection to the second reading of the Bill beyond what arose from the time at which it had been brought forward. He regretted that a measure of so much importance should not have been introduced at an earlier period of the Session; it had been laid on their Lordships' table only on the 13th of July. What hope was there that a Bill dealing with so great a variety of interests could now be satisfactorily proceeded with? The number of charities under 30 l. a year was very great, and existed all over the country; and therefore he hoped that a measure involving questions so varied and extensive would not be persisted in this Session. As to the charitable funds for educational purposes, he must say that he did not think the parties to whom their management was to be intrusted by the Bill were well adapted for such a duty. He thought also that any single individual having the power to appear before the judge and calling for inquiry, would have the effect of involving these small charities in greater expenses than they were able to bear. The whole question, however, was one which, no doubt, called for the deepest consideration; and for that very reason he hoped the noble and learned Lord would not attempt to pass the Bill during the present Session. The Bill might have been brought in at the commencement of the Session, and therefore they had a right to complain that it had not made its appearance till July. He thought this was a good constitutional ground of objection, and therefore, if he had no other reason,

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this would warrant him in objecting to the measure being proceeded with this year.
The BISHOP of LLANDAFFthought the Bill in its general purpose would he found to be beneficial; and as he believed that small trusts would be bettor managed under its provisions than they now wore, he hoped it would meet the umanimous concurrence of his right rev. Brethren, He must say, however, that, considering what the noble and learned Lord had said as to the importance of the Bill, they had a right to ask how it came to pass that it had so long been delayed? He would not now enter upon the general question; but he must say that he cordially approved of the appeal to the Committee of Privy Council with reference to the small charitable educational trusts. He believed it would be found that the greater part of those trusts were left by the donors for educational purposes in accordance with the principles of the Church of England; and it was desirable that the Committee of the Privy council should see that they were administered in accordance with those wishes.
The EARL of HARROWBYconsidered it an object of great necessity that some such Bill as the present should be carried; but at the same time he must concur in the observations made by the noble Earl, that it was unfortunate the measure should have been so late in being introduced. The clause having reference to educational trusts was, in his opinion, by far the most important in the Bill; and considering that the subject of education was one upon which the greatest difference of opinion existed, and looking to the difficulty of consulting the feelings and interests of those who would be affected by the measure, he was afraid they were not likely, at this period of the Session, to come to any satisfactory result. They must bear in mind that these small trusts for educational purposes were spread all over the country, and that the question would be a very difficult one indeed to settle.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, a Bill containing the greater part of the provisions in the present measure was brought in by him last Session, and therefore there had been time to consider it for the last twelve months. No objection was then made to the Bill, and he did not anticipate that there would be any on the present occasion. Indeed, he had heard no objection to the general principle of the Bill; and the only point on which there appeared
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to be a difference of opinion was on that relating to the educational trusts. The noble Lord (Lord Redesdale), though be appeared to differ from the proposal laid down in the Bill, did not suggest any other course which ought to be followed. There was no doubt that the educational question was one of extreme importance, and beset with difficulties, and yet it was one they must deal with. It had been said these charity funds were spread all over the country; but he regarded that as a reason why they should be as speedily as possible dealt with, and why a remedy should be applied for their better regulation.
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned.