Lords Sitting of 21 July 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2° Consolidated Fund.
3a and passed:—Appeals on Civil Bills (Dublin).
PETITIONS PRESENTED, By Lord Stanley, from several Members of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, Manchester Unity, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.—From High Sheriff and Grand Jurors of Meath, that the Act 28 Geo. III. Cap. 37 may be again put in force for the Better Protection of Agricultural Produe.—By Earl Fortescue, from Guardians of the Honiton Union, in favour of a more Extended System of Emigration.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The EARL of GLENGALLsaid, he had felt it his duty, as a representative Peer of Ireland, to give notice of a Motion which he had intended to propose to-day; but, in consequence of its having been intimated in another place that Her Majesty's Government contemplated certain measures for the preservation of the public peace and the maintenance of the Royal authority in Ireland, he begged leave to ask the noble Marquess whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland?—because, if such were the case, he should feel himself precluded from entering into those details which he should otherwise have thought it necessary to bring under the notice of the House. He was quite prepared to go on with his Motion; but as he understood the proposition to which he had alluded would be made tomorrow, he was prepared to abstain from pressing that Motion at present; and he should have the less hesitation in following such a course, if the measure to be proposed by Her Majesty's Government were
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of the nature which he was led to suppose because he was perfectly satisfied that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would go far to remedy the evils from which Ireland was now suffering, and so secure the object of his Motion.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, the noble Lord at the head of the Government had given notice in the other House of Parliament that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill to empower the Lord Lieutenant, or other chief governor of Ireland, to arrest and detain, till the 1st of March, 1849, such persons as he or they should suspect of conspiracy against Her Majesty's Government in Ireland. The Motion, however, of which the noble Earl opposite had given notice was an important one, and if he thought proper to proceed with it, an opportunity would thus be given to Her Majesty's Government to make such statements and explanations as might be thought necessary.
The EARL of GLENGALLsaid, considering the condition in which the people of Ireland were placed, and the position in which the loyal and those who were well affected to the Crown and constitution stood, under the existing state of things, he felt it his duty to place upon the Order-book of their Lordships' House the notice of Motion which stood in his name for that day. It was—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies of Reports from the Stipendiary Magistrates, Constabulary Officers, and Police, respecting the formation of Clubs in Ireland since the 1st March, 1848."
That Motion he now begged leave to make. It was well known to their Lordships, and to the public, that for some time past an organisation of a most formidable character had been proceeding in Ireland; that clubs had been organised in all directions for the avowed and well-known purpose of subverting the Queen's Government and the existing constitution, and establishing in that unfortunate country a republic. It was, perhaps, also well known to their Lordships that, shortly before the death of the late Mr. O 'Connell, a schism took place between those persons who advocated repeal, and attended at Conciliation Hall. The movement party of that society were dissatisfied with the measures taken to repeal the Union, and they considered that mere moral force was insufficient to effect the purpose. They accordingly separated; and, in order to

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carry out their objects, they established those societies all over the country. He regretted to say that their efforts had been most successful; that those clubs had been established in almost all the large towns and cities, in many of the smaller towns, and even, he regretted to say, in many of the villages. In many of the large towns, in the south of Ireland especially, the principles of these clubs were the same as of those which had done so much mischief in Paris; they were neither more nor less than Jacobin clubs; their objects were to effect revolution, the subversion of all order, and the division of these countries into separate kingdoms. The organisation which took place in Dublin in the spring was of a very serious nature. A considerable number of clubs were then organised, and it was openly announced that it was the intention of the parties forming thorn to rise and attempt to take the city of Dublin. The preparations, however, which were made by the Lord Lieutenant were of so admirable a character that they undoubtedly put a check to that movement. The preparations, also, that were made by the loyal and well-affected were of a most determined character, for they armed themselves, and formed bodies of special constables, and showed themselves resolved to prevent any outrages on property or persons by the insurgents, had they shown themselves in the streets. No one knew the preparations which had been made to repress the insurgents better than he (the Earl of Glen-gall), because he was himself engaged in the organisation; and it was as much to the determination shown by the well-disposed and loyal who bad so organised themselves as to the preparations made by the Lord Lieutenant, that they were indebted for the maintenance of peace and tranquillity. And then he begged to take the opportunity of stating, that almost every man in Ireland who was well affected and loyal to the British constitution placed in the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland the most unbounded confidence. They were perfectly satisfied that that noble Lord would act up to the full extent of the powers intrusted to him. That he had done so they fully admitted; but they maintained that he had not powers sufficient at the present moment to meet the emergency. He (the Earl of Glengall) felt satisfied that nothing short of suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would enable that
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noble Lord to put those persons down. He was justified in making that assertion, because he knew as well as any man what had taken place in the country, having resided in it for forty years, and having, during that time, given every attention possible to what was passing in it. When the organisation of the loyal took place, and those persons who were leaders in the organisation of the clubs, found that the preparations made to prevent insurrection were too strong to give them any hope of success, they changed their tactics, and set about organising the country; and that, too, he regretted to say, with very great success. The principal leaders of the Dublin clubs went down to the south of Ireland, and through the whole of the country, and organised that description of societies—societies which openly, and plainly, and avowedly said that they intended to subvert the British power in Ireland, and to separate Ireland from England. If that was not treason, he knew not what treason was. But they had other intentions, as well as those he had mentioned. Their determination was to create a social as well as a political revolution. Their intention was to destroy the present regulation and possession of property in that country—to change its owners; and that they told plainly to the world in the proclamations they had issued, and in the speeches they had made. They said it was their determination to root out Irish landlords. They said, "Eight thousand have usurped this gift of Providence to the exclusion of eight miltions. Can these eight thousand hold it much longer, against the awaking intelligence of the millions? To root out Irish landlords and exterminate landlordism—to eradicate, root and branch, out of the island the English landlords and the English garrison, should be the punctum saliens of Irish liberty. 'Extermination of Irish landlordism' should be the pass-word of any army of independence—the constant theme of the clubs—the first deliberation of the Council of Three Hundred." They said, that those eight thousand Irish landlords formed the English garrison; for they asked, "Who were the English garrison?" which they answered by saying that they were the Irish landlords, who possessed the land of the country. And it should be observed, that those were chiefly the Protestant aristocracy, upon which subject be would have to offer a few observations

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before he concluded. But the clubbists went on to say, "This garrison must be stormed and put to the rout, before the island can be liberated." They said, "Let it not be forgotten, then, that the land question is of the first importance—that it is the only question to fight for. It is not a shadow, but a substance. It is not like the ignis fatuus of 'glorious '82,' but a solid and substantial boon." And how were those measures to be carried out? In the same proclamations they were told that they were to be carried out by pikes and blunderbusses. He (the Earl of Glen-gall) did not think it necessary to trouble their Lordships with a variety of speeches and details of the same description. He took it for granted that, through the medium of the public journals, they had been made acquainted with the intentions of these people, and that these intentions were decidedly treasonable there could be no doubt. But they were not satisfied with desiring the many to arm. Not only had they practical instructors going about the country, and teaching the people military organisation and military manœuvres, but they gave instructions to women to procure hoops, which they were to encircle with tow, to sprinkle with turpentine, and, having set fire to them, to throw them upon the military. They told the women to exterminate the military wherever they should appear. But it was impossible for treason to go farther than this: that at one of the late meetings in Cork, one of the principal leaders of those societies passed in review several thousand men. They marched in regular military order, and were reviewed in exactly the same manner as soldiers were; and that took place in Cork shortly after the individual who reviewed them had been acquitted, or rather not acquitted, but had not been found guilty upon his trial for sedition. In various parts of the country, multitudes were got together in regular military array; and it generally happened that the chairmen, secretaries, and other leaders in the clubs, were the officers commanding the organisation. Attempts also had been made to promote excitement in foreign countries on the subject of this proposed insurrection. In America, regular subscriptions had been entered into for the purpose of obtaining arms for the Irish Confederation. At Paris, at that moment, existed a club called the Irish National Committee, whose placards were posted in
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the streets of Paris, in which proclamations they called upon the French people to aid them in crushing British supremacy in Ireland, and to assist in the work of subverting the British empire. The proclamation, after appealing to the French people for aid, said, in the main, the whole of the people in Ireland were not inactive, but that proper organisation and arming were being carried on, and that before next autumn the English would be put down. It then proceeded to state, if they should fail, all France must deplore the fate of a people who had perished in endeavouring to free themselves. It added, "It was for Frenchmen to determine whether they would become the ally of their well-known old enemy England, or the friends of a people who had ever been faithful allies to them." This paper was signed, "James Mahony, President of the Paris Irish National Political Union." The House must be fully aware that a large correspondence passed from time to time between the two countries; and he had reason to believe that persons in France connected with the last insurrection, which had deluged Paris, and other places, with blood, were in direct connexion with those who were exciting an outbreak in Ireland. It was in consequence of these events that seventy-one Peers and Members of Parliament thought it necessary to meet and sign a requisition calling on Her Majesty's Government to take immediate steps to put down this threatened insurrection. This memorial was presented to the hon. Secretary for the Home Department; and he very much regretted that the reply of the right hon. Gentleman, in his declaration, was anything but satisfactory. It was in consequence of the reply thus given by the Home Secretary that he had felt it to be his duty to bring forward this Motion. Up to the present moment, what had Her Majesty's Government done towards suppressing this threatened outbreak? They had proclaimed only certain counties, or parts of counties, up to a few days ago, and one or two of the large cities. They had also prosecuted three of the principal leaders of this threatened insurrection, and another individual had been arrested who was a printer of seditious publications. Now, let them see what had been the effect of the proclamations which had been issued under the recent Act, by which certain districts were placed within its operation. Noble Lords might suppose that districts

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proclaimed under the new Coercion Bill were exposed to extreme severity—in short, something approaching to martial law, or some other very stringent measure. This, however, was by no means the case. It only gave power to the Government to take away arms from persons of an improper character—from persons who were not of sufficient character and respectability to possess them; it undoubtedly prevented the lower orders from appearing in the streets and highways with arms, and intimidating the peaceably disposed. He admitted that this was a beneficial enactment as far as it went. Since then, Her Majesty's Government had proclaimed several other counties and cities; and the object in view was to get possession of the arms in the possession of the people previous to the threatened insurrection. He felt satisfied that they might proclaim particular districts, but they would find it unavailing, and they would not succeed in their object, for the parties would conceal their arms. In six or seven counties in which districts had been proclaimed, for the last six months, the Act was found, to be, to a considerable extent, unavailing; and the search for arms was, to a considerable degree, unsuccessful. It was a most unfortunate circumstance that a measure similar to the former Arms Bill had not been passed into a law. He thought it must be clear to any one who had reflected on the subject, that the present legislation was not sufficient to meet existing and threatened evils. It was clear that the powers given under the ordinary law would not meet the present state of things. They had tried three of the cases to which he had alluded, and he much regretted to find that in two of these cases the prosecution had failed. Although those two cases had been brought before two juries, and the cases made as clear as any cases could be, the Crown could not obtain verdicts. In one ease they did obtain a verdict, and they carried the law into effect with great promptitude and energy. But what had been the effect of the prosecution and subsequent punishment? It had made the people doubly furious and desperate, and it had also had this effect, that other parties, who bad been arrested, and who were to be tried on the 8th of August, hurried on the movement before that day, and had almost brought the insurrection to a head. If timely steps were not taken, these proceedings would go on, for it was well known that parties were
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actively engaged in organising a rebellion ill Ireland, to break out on or before the 8th of August, for the purpose of preventing those persons being tried and sent out of the country. It had been at first determined to abstain from the outbreak until after the harvest, through which they expected to get what they termed a commissariat; but since that the tactics had been changed, and it had been determined now to break out on or before the 8th August, as the parties to be tried were the chief means of promoting the military organisation, and more especially the parties connected with the seditious press, such as the Felon, the Nation, and the Tribune. These men, no doubt, would be punished if jurors did their duty; but if jurors did not do their duty, they would overthrow the whole of the empire, for Ireland would separate from this country, and the ruin of both would follow. Their Lordships must know, if convictions could not be obtained in such cases, trial by jury must become a mockery, and chaos would succeed. But what hope had they that juries would do their duty? Was the House aware of the situation in which jurors were placed who did their duty? What was the case with respect to some of the jurymen who found Mr. O'Connell and his fellow traversers guilty? These men were almost ruined, as people would not deal with them, and their trade in consequence was at an end. The names also of the jurymen who tried Mitchel had been printed in lists, and sent to all the treasonable clubs in the country. In these lists the residence and occupation of each of them was given, so that they might be assassinated the very first opportunity. The position of a juryman in Ireland was anomalous in the extreme; and in many instances protection was necessary for the preservation of his life, if he should consent to give a verdict of guilty against the parties indicted. Another great difficulty in prosecutions was the evidence. On all occasions in that country very considerable difficulty was found in obtaining juries who would convict, and witnesses who would give evidence. In cases of special commissions, which were now held so frequently as to become almost as regular as the assizes, they obtained verdicts with greater ease in the cases which were brought forward. But what was the position of the juries and witnesses? They were obliged to protect the former, and provide for the latter. In fact, if a witness in Ireland was

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called upon to give his testimony before a jury in a case of any serious consequences, they were obliged to provide for him and his family before they could do so. For these reasons they were obliged also to select the first gentlemen of the country to act as jurymen. It was not usual on ordinary occasions to select jurymen to try cases from this class. In making out the list of jurymen on a special commission, much depended on the sheriff, for if he did not return the first gentlemen in the county in the list, it was well known that they would have no verdict at all. In mercy to the gentry and witnesses who did their duty, you must support them against violence, not only for a time but for years, in Ireland. How was it possible that a country could prosper, or that the people in it could be industrious, while two Parliaments were sitting there for the purpose of counteracting all that was done by the Legislature in this country? Supposing that in England you had a Parliament sitting at York, and another at Maidstone or elsewhere, as well as the Legislature in London, this country would be in the same situation as Ireland had been for the last fifteen or twenty years. It was nonsense ts talk of remedial measures so long as this agitation prevailed, which paralysed industry and destroyed prosperity. As long as incendiary meetings, such as were held at Conciliation Hall and the Hall of the Confederates, were held, it was impossible to expect that either the farmers or the labourers would do their duty. Formerly the farmers' time was taken up by political agitation and by reading seditious publications; but now, instead of listening to speeches and reading such publications, they were making pikes and preparing arms; and they were urged to an open outbreak by seditious emissaries progressing through the country. This state of things affected commerce and industry, and paralysed trade, and obliged him who had no wish to take part in agitation, if he was anxious not to become a marked man. There were other classes suffering as much as those who were directly affected by agitation. The Roman Catholic gentry of that country were, he believed, as well affected as their Protestant brethren. Their position, however, was ten times more difficult than that of the Protestant gentry. The Protestant gentry were allowed, to a certain extent, to have their own opinions, and might go to church on Sunday as they pleased; and they might act in conformity
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with the dictates of their consciences in various ways. If, however, the Catholic gentleman should set himself against agitation, he was set down as an enemy of his country, and was termed an Orange Catholic; and before he took any active steps in public matters, in the way he wished, he might safely say that he had better make his will before he did so. This was because you had allowed agitation to exist, by which the best interests of the country had been sacrificed, and which prevented men doing their duty as they wished as loyal subjects of the Crown. He had in his possession letters he had recently received from Catholic gentlemen who resided in districts which had been proclaimed, and they assured him that several of their tenants had called upon them and assured them that the insurrection was organised, and that a day had been appointed for the outbreak, and they were told that they would be obliged to join in the rebellion, or they must take the consequences. Meetings of a most seditious character, which were attended by large assemblages of persons, and in which the most violent language was used, and where a military array was adopted, were constantly being held in the proclaimed districts. It should not escape the notice of the House that the principal parties who appeared at these meetings had only just been bailed on charges of sedition. This circumstance alone, in spite of everything else, showed what was the effect of the present state of the law. Mr. Doheny was arrested for the second time a short time since for sedition, and was admitted to bail. Why this person was not taken into custody and committed under the Felon Act, he (the Earl of Glengall) did not know. This person, on his liberation upon bail, proceeded to Cashel, and attended a meeting of 7,000 or 8,000 men, who marched in military order, and cheered as a body of troops, and many of them were armed. From Cashel he proceeded to the mountain of Slievenamon, near the large town of Clonmel, where were assembled from 10,000 to 12,000 men, a great number of whom were armed, whom he also addressed in the most seditious language. Another individual (Mr. Meagher) had been held to bail on two charges, and he also attended public meetings, and addressed them in the most violent manner; and he (the Earl of Glengall) was sure that he need not repeat the seditious language then used. These persons then proceeded

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to Waterford, where a most formidable demonstration was made, and this was of so serious a character that the Government thought it to be expedient to despatch a large force by steam to that port. At Carrick-on-Suir, a very serious affair had occurred. It had been said that the prison had been broken open, and two persons with a priest, who had been arrested, had been liberated. He was enabled to say that this was not the fact, as the priest had not been arrested; but three persons who had taken the most prominent part in the agitation in the town, had been arrested; but immediately that this became known in the town and the neighbouring places, an immense multitude assembled and proceeded to the gaol, where the authorities, including the stipendiary magistrate, admitted the persons arrested to bail, who of course were then liberated. In the meantime the tocsin had sounded, and there had assembled such a large multitude that the authorities apprehended, if they had not previously liberated those persons from gaol, the mob would have forced open the doors of the prison and liberated them. The tocsin again sounded to announce the liberation of the persons seized. The Rev. Mr. Byrne then told the multitude to go home, as there was no necessity for them to remain in the town "at present." These immense assemblies of people were most alarming, and, if allowed to continue, must completely paralyse the administration of the law. Even so lately as the night before last, what had occurred in the mountain of Slievenamon? He had received a communication which informed him that at first a single fire was lighted on the mountain, and immediately afterwards it was answered by the spontaneous appearance of sixty fires in the town of Clonmel, as well as fires on all the mountains for miles round; and multitudes assembled round these fires who shouted and cheered, and uttered the most terrific threats against all who opposed them "when the day should come." Under these circumstances he must say that the proclaiming these towns and cities would be of little or no avail if Her Majesty's Ministers did not come down with some other measures of a more stringent character. He was glad to hear from the noble Marquess that Her Majesty's Government were prepared to adopt some other measures, and, above all, the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act with respect to Ireland. He was sure that the people of England would go with them in such a
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proceeding. He was sure that the people of this country would not stand by and see the blood of their fellow-subjects shed in an attempt to subvert Her Majesty's Throne. There were other circumstances, which he was aware he might have gone into, as to the unfortunate state of things in Ireland; but he would abstain from doing so, as Her Majesty's Government had expressed their intention to propose to Parliament a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act; and he cordially congratulated the country that the Government at length were prepared to take a decided step; and he trusted that in doing so they would receive not only the unanimous support of that House, but also that of the other House of Parliament, for it was only by such proceedings they could hope to restore peace to Ireland. The noble Earl concluded with moving for copies of reports from the stipendiary magistrates, constabulary officers, and police, respecting the formation of clubs in Ireland, since the 1st March, 1848.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid: When the noble Earl gave notice of his intention to make the Motion, which has just been read from the woolsack, I did not wish that he should abstain from calling the attention of the House to the matter; on the contrary, I have been the more anxious that he should do so, because some misapprehensions have arisen as to what fell from me on a former occasion, when the subject was brought under the notice of the House, when I was supposed to have said that if he brought forward the subject at that moment, it would be attended with great public inconvenience to the Government. On the contrary, on the last night I spoke on this subject, I stated that, whether immediately, with a distinct Motion or not, I thought it right that the attention of the House should be called to the subject; and I also stated last night, that when the noble Earl called the attention of the House to the subject, it would be the proper time for me to enter upon an explanation of the views and opinions of the Government. Therefore, so far from any wish being manifested on my part to deprecate discussion, I invited it. I say, therefore, I am very glad that the noble Earl has called the attention of the House to the subject, although (for reasons which I shall presently give) I think it would be more advantageous to the public service to withdraw the present Motion than to press it. But before I ask him to do this, I am desirous of stating that I do not

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only concur in the propriety of the attention of the House being called to the subject, but also that I am not able to contradict the statements made by the noble Earl; on the contrary, I think he has rested his statements on a variety of facts, the notoriety of which is palpable to the world, from a variety of circumstances known to all your Lordships, and from the conduct of parties alluded to by the noble Earl, the accuracy of the description of which it is the more easy to admit, because it is conduct which the parties make no attempt to dissemble. I agree with much that fell from the noble Earl as to the proceedings connected with the clubs. I think it unnecessary for my purpose—it is unnecessary for the purpose of the noble Earl—to state this night in what degree, in the ordinary state of society, and in a tranquil condition of the community, clubs may be more or less admissible, more or less dangerous to its peace. It is unnecessary to attempt to take the precise gauge and dimensions of these clubs, or to say what are the numbers, and what are the circumstances, which might require them to be arrested by the strong arm of the law. It is sufficient for me in the present moment to state that these clubs have arrived at such a pitch in Ireland, that they appear to be, according to the authority of the Lord Lieutenant of that country—but not on his authority alone, but on the concurrent authority of all interested in preserving the public peace—nothing but the prelude to civil war. I can have no doubt of this, when I look to the purposes they have in view. Their meetings also are not pretended to be held for the purposes of discussion, but speeches are made at them, and proceedings take place of a nature sufficiently clear to lead any one to know the effects likely to follow. If we look at the manner in which these clubs are formed—to their recent rapid increase, to their organisation, and to the objects professed by the parties, and to the military array by which they sought to attain these objects, I think it is clear that no one can deny the truth that we have all the appearance of war before us, and that nothing else is wanting but an actual declaration of it. This military array is carried on and directed by a person who not long ago went to Paris with the avowed object of communicating with the clubs of that place: and having met with something like a rejection of his applications from the then Government of that country,
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he went as it were knocking from door to door, with the view of exciting the greatest hostility against the Government of the country; and on his return he was placed at the head of the clubs in Ireland. After his return this person engaged in a conflict, not with the Government, but with a portion of his own countrymen, in which he was worsted, upon which he expressed his intention to retire from what he was pleased to call public life; but which, after having abandoned, he was induced to return to, with the view of taking that situation which he was now said to occupy, for the purpose of extending and organising the whole of a system, the nature and character of which has been so correctly and ably stated by the noble Earl. This person has been in the habit of passing in review before him, at various intervals, large bodies of persons, prepared, as they were told, for military purposes; and these persons, if not possessed of arms at the moment, have been constantly instructed, since the day when he joined them, that they were as nothing unless they provided themselves with arms. I ask, then, whether, under such circumstances, anything was wanting to make out our case? Or shall I be gravely told, that for the purpose of considering or debating any public questions, as well as for the purpose of enabling them to petition Parliament, arms were necessary? I therefore say, that by the facts of the case, the matter has been made out. The noble Earl wishes to obtain copies of reports or communications from stipendiary magistrates and others, respecting the formation of clubs in Ireland. To this Motion I have this objection, and this alone; I should have no hesitation in agreeing to the Motion, if the noble Earl inserted the words "extracts of communications," for I must tell the noble Earl, that from the nature of the communications, containing as they did a mass of matter of such a nature that it could not be laid on the table without detriment to the public service; and if only extracts were furnished, it would weaken the case; but I can assure the noble Earl that the case is one of the greatest and most imminent danger. I am sure my noble Friend at the head of the Government in Ireland will not be suspected by your Lordships, and I know that the noble Earl does not suspect him, of being backward in the use of the powers which have been entrusted to him for the government of Ireland—powers

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much more effectual, I am inclined to think, than the noble Earl has been induced to admit. When the noble Earl said that in the counties and places which had been proclaimed, the powers under the recent Act had not proved so effectual as was desirable in the pursuit and search for arms, I must reply that I still believe that the powers exercised under that Act, together with the increase of the constabulary, have led in many districts to the abandonment of the open use of arms—a circumstance in itself productive of much good. I may here state that in the city of Limerick, to which that Act was first applied, peace has been comparatively restored, and the city has been placed in a condition of infinitely greater security than existed before the Act was carried into operation. I also know, my Lords, that my noble Friend at the head of the Government in Ireland attaches the greatest importance to that Act. I know, also, that although, for reasons which it is not necessary for me now to state, he abstained as long as possible from applying that Act to other cities, and more particularly to the great city of Dublin, nevertheless he thinks that the time has now arrived when the greatest and most immediate benefit will result from the application of that Act to those places in which it is now being carried into effect with all the vigilance and all the exertion that my noble Friend can bring to the discharge of so important a duty. Other powers with which the noble Earl is entrusted by law, as Her Majesty's representative in that country, have also been exorcised. The Act against training—a very important Act—which will expire before the end of this Session, but which will, as a matter of course, be renewed—has been applied with good effect in the way of warning from the prosecutions which have taken place under it. There are other Acts now in force; and the common law is in force of course, whereby the noble Earl is enabled, to a great extent, to repress and check what must, under the common law, be considered illegal. All the powers thus vested in him, my noble Friend has carried into effect; and I can scarcely agree with the noble Earl opposite in thinking, that trial by jury has been found inefficacious; having observed, more particularly under the operation of the special commission, the courage, fidelity, and determination with which a great number of jurors have discharged the most important functions which can devolve upon the citi-
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zens of a free country; functions, the faithful discharge of which entitles them to the approval of their own consciences and of the country, and which will reward them for what I trust is not a great degree of risk attendant upon that duty. My Lords, it is but justice to these persons to state what has been their conduct—it is but justice to the people of Ireland to say, that during the whole of the trials in Limerick, for instance, no witness was found to shrink from telling the truth, and from contributing to the administration of justice that share of duty which had devolved upon him. I nevertheless agree with the noble Earl that it is one of the most fearful consequences attendant on the progress of these clubs, that they are everywhere being used, as I firmly believe they were chiefly intended to be, for the purpose of intimidation; and I believe it is because in their rapid growth they have acquired that character, and because they are enabled to exercise intimidation with effect over every class of the community, rich and poor, Catholic and Protestant, openly avowing, as they have done within the last week, that those who do not yield to their authority, and appear armed at their bidding, are to be considered by them as enemies—it is because they are thus acting that they are, I believe, in the name of liberty, endeavouring, as clubs have endeavoured elsewhere, to establish the most cruel tyranny—subversive of all liberty, destructive of all rights—and proceeding, as such associations always have done, from disturbance to bloodshed and anarchy, until finally they would, in the natural course of things, issue in perfect despotism. Now, my Lords, is this, or is it not, a state of things which ought to be met by all the vigour of Government, supported, as I trust it will be, by all the authority of Parliament? My Lords, I know it may be said now, or it may be said hereafter, "Why not have waited a little longer? Why do to-day what yon might put off till to-morrow? Why do this month what it is admitted by many may be necessary in the next?" In answer to that objection, I have only to observe that we have arrived at a state of things in which the loss of time is the loss of power. Use your power while you have it, and the effect of your using it will be, not to destroy life, nor to impair liberty, but to save life and to preserve liberty. My Lords, it is upon these considerations that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in the responsible situation which he fills, has told

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Her Majesty's Government that the time has arrived when it is necessary to arm him with power to detain all persons who may justly be suspected of treasonable intentions. I will not say that no other measures will be necessary; but I do believe that that is a measure which is necessary. I think it is the measure which is most called for, because it proceeds at once to strike at the leaders. My Lords, in considering this subject, and in dealing with the state of Ireland, though I am far from justifying treason or sedition in any class of Her Majesty's subjects, rich or poor; yet, when I consider what the population of Ireland is—the tendency to excess which it has, from various causes, for a long time exhibited—the circumstances which keep a large portion of the population in ignorance, and in a state of incapacity for weighing the questions which are submitted to their consideration—when I know that there is in that country an inferiority, as compared with other parts of the kingdom, in wealth, arising not only from the absence of those raw materials which promote manufacturing prosperity, but also from the absence of the capital which has been deterred from entering that portion of the united kingdom by that very state of alarm which it is the object of these persons to make perpetual in that country—and when I know that upon a population so circumstanced there has lately come one of those dispensations of Providence which dishearten and disorganise the best dispositions and the stoutest hearts—when I consider and know all this, I do feel that something may be said in extenuation of those classes of ignorant persons who are thus led away. But for the persons who lead them away—for the persons who, knowing the falsity of the statements they make, have seen nothing in the dispensation of Providence but a weapon and an instrument by which they may excite hatred in the breasts of their fellow-subjects, and turn them against that portion of the empire from which alone they could derive any mitigation of their sufferings—I say, for such leaders no pity can be felt, and it is against such men that the attention and efforts of Parliament and the Government should be directed. As regards the power sought by the Lord Lieutenant, then, I have no hesitation in saying that it ought, under the circumstances to be conceded; and I trust that such will be the feeling both of this and of the other House of Parliament. It
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is a power which I know you will be placing in good hands. It is a power which my noble Friend has abstained from calling for up to the latest moment, and which, when obtained, he will, I know, exercise in a spirit of forbearance and conciliation, but at the same time with that firmness without which it would be of no value, and which is one of the distinguishing characteristics of my excellent and long-tried Friend. Having thus adverted to my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, there is one thing which, before I sit down, I am desirous to state, and I do so upon the authority of others also, though more especially upon his authority. I think it essential to state that, although there is doubtless reason to apprehend that many individuals of the Roman Catholic clergy have been engaged in this formidable movement, nevertheless the conduct of a great portion of that body has been most meritorious; and I would also state, on the authority of my noble Friend, who has from day to day examined the progress of this disorder, and who would save society when disorder is pressing upon it by the exertion of some vital energy in opposition to the progress of the evil, that some of the Roman Catholic clergy have taken the most effectual means of preventing the formation of clubs; and instances might be quoted in which, when circumstances were most favourable to the progress of sedition, the remedy has been found in the exhortations of the priests, who have warned their flocks against the dangers by which they were assailed. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is most anxious that it should be known, that if the great conflict shall come, which I fear is coming, though I trust it will be short, the Government of Ireland will be essentially sustained by the support of one part at least of that highly respectable and religious body. Your Lordships are aware, from what I have stated before, that as regards the Bill to which the noble Earl has alluded, notice of its introduction has been actually given this evening in the other House of Parliament; and when it comes before your Lordships I trust it will command your attention as adapted to meet one of the greatest evils that ever afflicted society, until that evil shall have been removed.
LORD BROUGHAM: My Lords, I can assure you I am not one of those to whom the noble Marquess has referred as possibly asking, "Why not wait a little

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longer?" On the contrary, I am bound I to say, recollecting the course which I took last November and December on this subject—I believe I am not the only person in this House or elsewhere who is disposed to ask, "Why have you waited so long?" But now that the step is about to be taken, which in my clear and unhesitating opinion might have been taken with advantage six months ago, my approbation is entire and undivided; and I have only to add, with a view to the past, that I hope and trust, and devoutly pray, that the resolution adopted may not be found to have come too late. My Lords, in December last I stated, in reference to the state of public feeling in Ireland—bad enough—deplorable enough, in all conscience—but a mere jest as compared with the worse state of the public mind in that unhappy country during the last two or three months—that in my deliberate opinion the true remedy, the true cure, for the evil, was to give the power which would be applied by what is commonly called the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act—that is to say, the power of imprisonment without information on oath. My Lords, I have to state what, not in this House perhaps, but out of doors, and especially in Ireland, will, I doubt not, be reckoned an authority in favour of that proposition. I say that this is a speedy remedy for a pressing and a desperate evil; that it tends to cure and not to irritate; and that it gives the power which of all others is most wanted at the present moment—that of detaining the leaders of rebellion, and taking away from it the support of those without whose support it cannot go on. I am now about to read to your Lordships the opinion of an authority which will not, perhaps, be here reckoned of great weight, but which I quote with a view to those in the sister kingdom who have looked up to that authority. I was told that the late Mr. O'Connell strongly expressed himself to the effect I shall presently mention, and I was told that I might cite his name as my authority. I declined to do so, feeling that prudence ought to govern men in making public statements of a private conversation. I felt that in the first place the authority on which I acted might be doubted; and, secondly, that the accuracy of the statement itself, might, as it rested on a conversation, be called in question. I declined, in fact, to make the statement related, unless it should be committed to paper in writing by
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the highly respectable individual who had held this conversation with the late Mr. O'Connell, then the leader of one portion of the Irish party, but a portion, permit me to say, in justice to it, and in fairness towards the deceased gentleman's memory, which has done all that in it lay to sever itself from the more criminal, the more rash, I might almost add the more insane, of those factious parties. I hope that what I am about to read will make its due impression on the friends, the admirers, and the adherents of that powerful and popular man. "About three weeks," says my correspondent, whose name I will give to my noble Friend opposite, "about three weeks before Sir Robert Peel's Coercion Bill was introduced in 1846, the late Mr. O'Connell deliberately stated to me and Dr.—," whom I do not name, "and Mr." so and so, now a Member of Parliament for an important place, and lately and at that time in a high situation under the Government, whose name I shall also give to my noble Friend, "that in his opinion the true remedy, as well as the safe and constitutional course, in the then state of certain districts in Ireland, Limerick, Tipperary, and so forth, was what is commonly called—"not very accurately, I beg leave to say—"the suspension of Habeas Corpus Act, as it would cure and not irritate; and that if Sir Robert Peel made out a case entitling his Government to possess such a power, he would support his application for it to Parliament, provided Sir Robert Peel at the same time introduced"—I thought, what Mr. O'Connell termed justice to Ireland would have followed, which would have taken away the whole value of the opinion, as there is no saying what that might not have included, but no such thing—"provided Sir Robert Peel at the same time introduced to the country the measures of relief and justice which he"—not which he (Mr. O'Connell) thought right, but "which he (Sir Robert Peel) had so often promised to bring forward." So that his opinion, contrary to my expectation, as I was proceeding to read the sentence, was not in the slightest degree restricted or weakened by any reference to the repeal of the Union, or to any wild measures for the destruction of the constitution, of the monarchy, and of society itself. The measures promised by Sir Robert Peel consisted, I think, of some modification of the law respecting the elective franchise, and one or two other comparatively slight changes;

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and if these were introduced, Mr. O'Connell was ready to give him his hearty support in proposing the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. My correspondent then goes on to say, "But (he added) that he would oppose to the uttermost any Curfew Bill which might he proposed, as it would irritate and not cure," supporting this opinion by many practical illustrations, to which I need not here allude, but in all of which I concur. This gentleman, my Correspondent, went on to say, that with Mr. O'Connell's permission, the substance of that conversation was on the following day reduced to writing, in order that it might be shown to Sir Robert Peel and Lord John Russell; and I have therefore the most perfect confidence in the strict and literal accuracy of the statement. My Lords, I consider this a testimony of no little weight—not here, where indeed there is no occasion for it, but in the sister kingdom. And if I could hope that the voice of one who has always been an advocate of the liberty of the subject—who has always been among the foremost opponents of the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in England when not required, or when it was only of doubtful necessity—if I could hope that the voice of a friend of Ireland upon all Irish questions, and at all times—a friend at a time when there were few who took part with the Irish people, and endeavoured to obtain the redress of what I deemed their real grievances—if such a friend may be heard—I would say that I, like my noble Friend opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne), who has always been an unflinching advocate of liberty, would call upon her not to trust to those who would lead her onward to anarchy. A friend of liberty I have lived, and such will I die—nor care I how soon the latter event may happen, if I cannot be a friend of liberty, without being a friend of traitors at the same time—a protector of criminals of the deepest dye—an accomplice of foul rebellion, and of its concomitant, civil war, with all its atrocities, and all its fearful consequences. My Lords, it is because I am a friend of liberty, that I detest anarchy and bloodshed—measures to ensure which are now brewing in the sister kingdom—not without foreign interference—not without foreign communication—not without foreign assistance—which, if very, very moderate in extent, shows the malus animus of those who invoke the aid of the murderers and anarchists of Paris. There was one sentence in
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my noble Friend's speech to which I cannot help alluding. He said that great and immediate peril was to be apprehended. Then let this measure, which is calculated to cure without irritating—this measure intended to arm the Government with the needful, and no more than the needful, powers, be immediate also. How else can the mischief be avoided? I believe that you could not do a wiser—you could not at the same time do a more regular thing, than suspending the Standing Orders in order to pass the Bill immediately. My Lords, they who wish for an outbreak will not fail to profit by any interval longer than the very shortest space of time which can elapse between the announcement of to-day and the final carrying up the measrue to the Crown for its sanction.
LORD STANLEY: My Lords, although your Lordships must all have listened with pain to the details respecting the state of Ireland which have been brought forward by the noble Earl, and confirmed to the fullest extent by the noble Marquess the President of the Council, and although it must at all times be painful to your Lordships to assent to an exceptional measure infringing on the constitutional laws of this country, yet I believe there is not only no man in your Lordships' House, but no loyal and well-disposed subject of the Crown elsewhere, who does not, or will not cordially rejoice in the announcement of Her Majesty's Government; and if my own satisfaction at that announcement be qualified by anything, it is because I regret, in common with my noble and learned Friend who has just sat down, not that the announcement has not been delayed, but that it was not made long ago; because, my Lords, concurring as I do with the noble Marquess opposite, that in cases of this kind, loss of time is loss of power, it is my firm conviction that if this step had been taken months ago, when it would have been justified in reason, in policy, and in sound statesmanlike wisdom, the state of Ireland would have been much more easy to grapple with, the obstacles would have been much less formidable, the dangers much less imminent than those which we are now called upon to encounter. My Lords, I think that the noble Marquess and Her Majesty's Government have now asked, if not for sufficient powers, at least for the right measure, so far as they have proceeded. The remedy which they have sought is one which will strike the right persons, and strike them at

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the right time. I am not one of those who desire that those unhappy victims, those credulous dupes of the incendiaries and agitators of Ireland, who will be put forward in the front rank for the purpose of committing the crimes and outrages to which they are instigated—I do not desire—God forbid!—that upon them the severest penalty of the law should fall; I rather desire that it should fall upon those who, well knowing the consequences of their conduct, well knowing the falseness of their pretexts, and well knowing the fatal effects of following their advice, are sacrificing everything to their own passions or their own sordid interests, and, for their own purposes, do not hesitate to involve their prejudiced and too-confiding countrymen in the guilt of treason and in the danger of civil war. My Lords, it is upon those who may have sufficient skill, and sufficient information and intelligence, to keep themselves clear of that amount of legal guilt which would bring them under the law in such a manner as to ensure their conviction, but who are yet morally, in the face both of God and man, guilty of the crime of treason, of wholesale murder, of rebellion, and of civil war—it is upon them, and not even upon them for the purposes of vengeance, but upon them for the purposes of mercy to the community, and for the sake of their countrymen generally—it is upon them that I hope and believe the salutary operation of the measure now proposed by Her Majesty's Government will fall. And, ray Lords, another inducement to me to believe that this is the right course of proceeding, is this, that under the operation of this measure there can be none of that delay which, even if not succeeded by ultimate escape, causes the sword of justice to fall with only half the force which it ought to have, and prevents its being attended with its proper effect as regards the deterring of others from similar offences. Punishment is sure to fail in effect if it be not inflicted until twelve months after the commission of the crime. My Lords, what do we see at this moment? Look at the case of the indictments for misdemeanour within a recent period. Trials are pending against some of the leading agitators; but through the power which the law gives to those persons, even supposing no difficulty should hereafter arise from prejudiced, perjured, or timid jurors—through the means of traversing, which the law places in the power of those parties—it will be the month of March, 1849, before the in-
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stigators of the disturbances of May and June, 1848, can be put upon their trials to answer for their conduct. The noble Marquess has stated—and to a certain extent I concur with him—that the juries of Ireland have done their duty. Even in cases, however, of murder, of violence, and of outrage, for which it has been necessary to put prisoners on their trial, as noble Lords connected with Ireland well know, it has not been without some precautions in framing the panels that convictions, on the clearest evidence, have been secured. But, my Lords, cases of agrarian disturbance, and the ordinary cases of murder, are widely distinct from the case of political offences, and of an instigation of civil war and outrage; and it is these that we have to contemplate at present. Why, if the population of Ireland is so tainted as the noble Marquess represents it to be—if so formidable is the danger, so general and wide-spread the feeling of disaffection, that, according to the noble Earl's statement, in a moment the whole population is up, and rejoicing in the declared or supposed frustration of the law in the escape of some great criminal, leading to anticipations of the ultimate triumph of rebellion itself—if that feeling be as widely extended as the noble Earl states, and I am confident truly states, over a large portion of the population of the country—if the feeling be so wide and so general as to justify the step which the Lord Lieutenant has recently taken of proclaiming seven important districts—could you, in the case of political offences, whatever you might do in the case of agrarian outrage, go to an ordinary jury with a chance of obtaining a conviction for a crime of which a vast portion of the population avow themselves to be, in heart and soul, and ready to be in action also, cordial and eager adherents? My lords, it is not merely on account of the participation of a large portion of the population in such feelings—it is not only on account of their sympathy with the offenders, and their consequent indifference to the obligations of an oath, that I should look with the greatest alarm upon the prospect of trusting to ordinary juries, and to the ordinary processes of law, for the punishment and repression of these offences. I attach at least as much importance to the timidity and the fears as to the culpability and the participation of the population. I fully concur in the statement of the noble Earl behind me—a statement which would, I am sure, be borne out by

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every one of your Lordships who is connected with Ireland—that if there be one class amongst whom, above another, it is most important that the feeling should not prevail that rebellion is likely to have the upper hand—if there be one class more exposed than another to dangers from ranging themselves on the side of the law, and against that of sedition—that class is the upper class of the Roman Catholic farmers and gentry of Ireland. My Lords, it is impossible for a Roman Catholic gentleman, or a Roman Catholic farmer, openly to espouse the cause of order against the cause of sedition, without being branded with the name of Orange Catholic—without being denounced as a traitor to his faith, his country, and his God. Those who are engaged in fostering the spirit of sedition look upon the Protestant as the supporter of order, and therefore as their natural straightforward and open enemy; they look upon the loyal Catholic as a deserter from their own ranks, and as a renegade, to be regarded with double the hostility directed against a Protestant under similar circumstances. But, my Lords, this is the state of things in which we now stand: the gauntlet of defiance has been thrown down; and the question now is, shall there be an avowed, declared, and triumphant rebellion, or shall the Government and the law not only have, but in the minds of the people shall they not be deemed and felt to have, the upper hand? For believe me that every moment that great question is in doubt—that every hour which adds to the confidence of the disaffected and seditious—that every delay which appears to show hesitation, doubt, or uncertainty on the part of the Government, not only add to the confidence of the disaffected and seditious, but add also to their physical strength; for day after day, and week after week, some men, from baser motives, some from timidity, some from a not unnatural fear of the consequences, and some from an apprehension of the danger they may risk—some who would be willing to range themselves on the side of order if they had a banner under which they could rally, and thereby ensure protection—will be driven from loyalty to indifference; and when indifference is no longer safe, they will be forced, against the feelings of their own hearts, against the opinions and dispositions of their own minds and souls, to give a support to a party whom in their hearts they detest, and assist them against the Government under which they were
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disposed—if allowed to do so—to live loyally and peaceably. I will not look back. I will not inquire by whose fault, or, in consequence of what negligence, or whether it was in consequence of any negligence, that matters have been allowed to reach their present state. I am too much satisfied to see the Government at length fully awakened to the entire danger of the case, and determined to risk any consequences rather than not put down this fearful state of things, this organised and already almost begun rebellion—I am too much pleased with their present determination to criticise too nicely their past conduct, or to inquire if earlier measures would not have averted much evil. I rejoice that this measure is now announced—I am confident that it will have the full support of this House; and if there be a minority in the other House of Parliament of opinion (and they must be a small minority who will be of such opinion) that the tyranny now exercised over the people of Ireland is not infinitely more grinding, more fearful, and more alarming than any possible violation of constitutional law, or any despotic authority to any extent that may be lodged in the hands of the responsible advisers of the Crown—if there be any such minority, who would prefer the continuance of the present state of things to the application of an effectual remedy—then I think the vast majority of the House of Commons will speedily overrule any opposition that may be offered by such a minority; and sure I am, that when a measure receives the assent of your Lordships' House, of the House of Commons, and of the Crown, for repressing the present state of disorder, and doing away with the present dangers that threaten Ireland, whatever its present provisions are, however, inconsistent with constitutional law it may be, it will command the almost unanimous concurrence of every loyal subject in England, in Scotland, and in Ireland. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Lansdowne) has talked of the details of this measure; what those details are I know not; but I trust they will be strong and effective. Our object is to give to the Government full, ample, and summary powers; and I trust that no lengthened details will interfere to prevent the progress of this measure through this and the other House of Parliament. I will answer for it that the measure will have the cordial support of this House, and I think, also, of the country; and I am satisfied of this, that if Her

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Majesty's Government go on with the determination to uphold the cause of order and peace in Ireland—ay, and I will say of good government also—even though they are not remaining within the pale of constitutional law, they will have the thanks and cordial support of those who now, with feelings of reluctance equal to those which the Government themselves experience, allow them to pass an Act of Parliament which, under ordinary circumstances, they must regret and deprecate; but they will also, without reference to party feelings or considerations, have the cordial support and assistance of every Member of your Lordships' House.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: Without being prepared at present to give any opinion as to the suspension of any Standing Order, I am prepared to state on the part of the Government, that to this measure every other measure ought to give way, that it may be passed with the greatest possible speed which the forms of Parliament will admit. But having stated that it is also desirable that it should be known in this House, and known to the country, that if any unfortunate delay (and if there be such, I trust it can be but short) shall arise to prevent the passing of this Bill, and if such delay shall have the effect of hurrying this insane party from the state of feverish excitement in which they now are, into a state of actual rebellion in which they are not, that there exists a statute of the Irish Parliament passed long before the Union, under which, in the event of the commission of such an outrage as would under the circumstances be the commencement of a rebellion, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is authorised to seize and to detain every person whom he suspects of being accessary to that rebellious proceeding; and further I have to state, that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is prepared instantly to take that course the moment such a case shall arise.
LORD BROUGHAM: I am aware of the Irish Act referred to. It is not necessary that there should be a general out-break to authorise the Lord Lieutenant to act. The commencement of a rebellion is sufficient; and I know my noble Friend at the head of the Irish Government too well to doubt that, when the case arises for interfering under that statute, he will vigorously, promptly, and fearlessly act up to it.
Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.
House adjourned.