Lords Sitting of 17 July 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Wigan; The Earl of Macclesfield.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Wolverhampton Curacy.
2a Appeals on Civil Bills (Dublin).
Reported.—Officers of Courts of Justice (Ireland) Assimilation of Appointments.
3a County Cess (Ireland); Criminal Law Administration Amendment; Canada Union Act Amendment.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Committee of Management of the Warwick County Asylum for the Adoption of Measures for the Reformation of Juvenile Offenders.—From the Presbytery of Garioch, for the Amendment of the Present System of granting Spirit Licenses, and that Toll Houses may be excluded altogether from the Privilege of Licenses From several Odd Fellows' Lodges, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.—From Distillers, against any Alteration of the Differential Duties between Home and Colonial Spirits.

SPAIN.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY: My object in asking the question, of which I have given notice, is the alarm which I feel at the report that this proceeding of shooting General Alzaa will revive the horrors of the former civil war in Spain, so justly condemned by this country, and so happily, I thought, for ever put an end to by that humane convention, which has, to the honour of the individual who accomplished it, obtained the appellation of the Eliot Convention. This sanguinary act by the Christino troops seems to have been followed up by General Elio, as a reprisal, shooting twelve civic guards, which makes one believe that we shall see those atrocities renewed which were so fearful in the late war. It seems that the Carlist forces

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are organising again in Navarre. The inhuman practice I have alluded to was begun by the Christinos shooting the mother of Cabrera; and possibly this act towards General Alzaa may be only the commencement of similar slaughter. Every one must surely deplore the state of our present relations with Spain, more especially if we are cut off from all communication of an official character with the Government of that country. To be shut out by any circumstances from that interesting part of the Continent, in which of late years we have taken so prominent and extraordinary a part, seems most unfortunate, not alone in relation to friendly communications, but especially in relation to our commerce. The unhappy differences that closed the career of M. Isturitz in this country have never been explained. This House and the country have surely a right to know in what position our affairs stand now with Spain. I understood from a noble Lord the leader of a great party in this House, that he would bring on a discussion on this subject. The Session, however, seems drawing to a close, and one hears no more of it; and yet how do we stand as to the Spanish papers and correspondence which have been laid on the table? I must say there has been as great inclination to suppress and garble documents in the department of the Foreign Office as has been shown with respect to the Colonial Office. In the first series of papers there was a suppression of a very important despatch. It appeared, however, in the Journals. I moved for it, and it was produced in the second series—I moan the despatch of the Duke of Soto-mayor to the Minister Plenipotentiary of Her Majesty, dated April 15. This despatch was most important in answering Mr. H. Bulwer's letter of the 12th of March, ably and unreservedly; and, secondly, in establishing the fact, that we not only have pursued a system of interfering in Spain, but that we actually called upon and insisted upon Spain interfering in Portugal; and, thirdly, the indignation felt by Spain at our throwing in her teeth, in these latter days, our having aided in placing Queen Isabella on the throne. This important despatch was at length squeezed out. But why was it delayed at first? With respect to answers to almost all the remaining correspondence, we are left officially much in the dark. We have now all our own story, but not one word of the Spanish injuries and complaints.
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We have seen, as before, a very long letter condemning various statements and charges. Whether true or not, Her Majesty's Ministers will afford us no means of investigating; and it is from seeing the impossibility of getting information as to all these points, and our actual relations with Spain, that I have felt it my duty, from the interest I have ever taken in these concerns, to put this question, namely, whether the Government had any means of ascertaining from our Consuls in Spain, or from any attaché, what was passing in that country?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that the question of the noble Marquess was this, whether Her Majesty's Government was in a condition which would enable them to furnish the House with any information with respect to Spain? He would not take upon himself to say that Her Majesty's Government was in a condition to answer all the questions which might he put to them with respect to Spain; but in reference to the particular matter to which the noble Marquess had alluded, he had no hesitation in telling the noble Marquess that the Government was in possession, through a consular agent, of the fact that one Carlist general had been put to death—in fact, that some of those unfortunate practices which heretofore had prevailed in Spain, had been revived. He could only say that this Carlist general had been shot before an answer could be received to a remonstrance which had been sent to Madrid on the subject. But, in fact, if Her Majesty's Government, had received any information, it would have been quite impossible for it to have interfered. He could only say that he viewed this proceeding, as everybody must, with the highest disapprobation.
The EARL of MALMESBURYsaid, he could perfectly understand what the noble Marquess meant when he stated that the Government were not authorised to interfere in respect to the internal affairs of Spain; but he could not but remember that the present Government of this country had a considerable advantage over their predecessors who formed the Government during the late civil war in Spain. He begged to remind the noble Marquess that the Pretender to the Crown of Spain was at this moment a resident in London, under the protection of Her Majesty's Government; whereas during former times Don Carlos was not in this country, and was, therefore, an independent party in

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Spain, and could not be interfered with but by a commission such as was sent by the noble Duke to Spain. But he (Lord Malmesbury) hoped that if Her Majesty's Government had any authority with the Pretender, they would exercise it; and he was sure their suggestions would be listened to: he hoped they would induce him to recall those emigrants and partisans who had gone out to Spain, and who were perishing in the most miserable manner. He was sure that those parties would not risk their lives if they received positive orders from the Spanish Pretender not to persist in their undertaking.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, it was perhaps incorrect on his part to add anything to what he had already stated; but as the noble Earl had adverted to the first point connected with the question of the noble Marquess, he wished to correct a misapprehension which the noble Earl seemed to be under. In the first place, though it was known perfectly well that the person referred to was now resident in this country, the Government had no right to impute to him that he was at this moment the Pretender to the Crown of Spain; and, least of all, that he exercised a control over the operations carrying on in Spain, or that he was chargeable with the character of those operations. But if he did consider himself to be the Pretender to the throne of Spain, we had no right to assume even this. Her Majesty's Government could not recognise him as exercising authority in Spain; and they had no reason to believe that at this moment he assumed such a right as that which was imputed to him.

LAW OF ENTAIL (SCOTLAND) BILL.
LORD CAMPBELL LORD CAMPBELL moved the Committee on this Bill.
The EARL of HADDINGTONadmitted that the present law of entail in Scotland was defective; but he saw many objections to this Bill, which, he regretted to say, trampled on vested rights, which ought to have been protected in that House. He was aware that his opposition to the Bill, supported as it was by the Government and by a large majority of their Lordships, would be fruitless. The noble Earl concluded by moving that the House go into Committee on the Bill that day three months.
LORD CAMPBELLexpressed his surprise that the noble Earl, having admitted the defects of the present law, should seek
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to perpetuate them by opposing this measure. He should resist the Amendment of the noble Earl.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEsaid, he did not mean to deny there were many advantages connected with an alteration in the law of entail; but the present measure, to effect that object, constituted one of the worst invasions of private rights that had ever been presented to their Lordships. In almost every other instance where Parliament had interfered compulsorily with the rights of property, they had taken care that the parties interfered with obtained compensation. But this Bill not only proposed to interfere with future entails, as to which he did not himself object, but it proposed to interfere with existing entails, under which parties might be entitled to rights though they were not in the actual possession of them. The question between him and the owners of the Bill he admitted was only one of degree; but it appeared to him that when they permitted an heir of entail, with consent of three of his sons, to bar the rights of all other relations, they conferred a right which went beyond the necessities of the case, for he had heard nothing to satisfy him that the rights of a fourth son, for instance, could not be estimated as well as the rights of nearer heirs. He thought, therefore, that this Bill dealt in too summary a manner with those rights; at the same time he did not wish to stand in the way of the Bill going into Committee.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, there was a strong advantage in the English over the Scotch law of entail, as it was adapted to two great ends, both of which were of considerable importance. The one was that land was not tied up in so strict a manner as to take it out of the reach of commerce, while at the same time it was sufficiently stringent to provide adequately for the maintenance of the great families of the country, which was of great importance in a monarchical conntry like this. He, therefore, thought some alteration in the law of entail in Scotland was advisable, though he must confess he was not altogether prepared for such a sweeping measure. He thought Parliament was entitled to deal as it pleased with future entails; but he had strong objections to giving the measure a retrospective operation. He did not think that either his recollection or his reading afforded any example of so vast a change being effected in the legal bearings of property as was proposed in this Bill. For

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the Bill not only prevented persons from entailing their lands in future, but it went backward, and said that all entails now existing in Scotland should be liable to be broken, and treated as if they had been entailed according to the English instead of the Scotch law. If this change were accomplished, the position of Scotland and England, with respect to the law of entail, would be reversed, and they would give the Scotch proprietor more power over existing entails than the English proprietor had. He, therefore, could not agree to this change without opening his eyes to the consequences; and yet, upon the whole, he felt he would not oppose it.
LORD CAMPBELLreminded his noble and learned Friend that the English law of entail, as enacted by Edward L, under the statute De Donis Conditionalibus, was as stringent as the Scotch law, till the whole was overset by one decision of the Court of Common Pleas in Tarleton's case. This measure only proposed to do constitutionally by Parliament what had before been done irregularly by a decision of a court of law.
Motion negatived. Bill to be reported.

CANADA UNION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved the Third Reading of this Bill.
LORD STANLEYdid not moan to oppose this Bill, but he could not allow this measure to pass without expressing his regret that this Bill did not provide for our language being used in the courts of law in the United Provinces of Canada. He considered that this would be a serious disadvantage in the operation of the Act, by which the ends of the union would be altogether frustrated, and a permanent barrier would be raised up between two portions of the country, whose amalgamation was essential to the welfare of both.
EARL GREYsaid, he could not admit that the measure would have this effect. The information he had received from his noble Friend the Governor General of Canada was, that the existing state of the law defeated its own object—that it kept up a state of law directly the contrary of their object—and that instead of erasing the distinctions of race it made them only the more marked and obvious. He admitted that it would be an advantage if one language were used in the official records throughout Canada; but he attached still more importance to the principle of allowing all their local concerns to be regulated
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according to the wishes and feelings of the people of Canada. He therefore could not doubt that this measure, which had been recommended by three successive Governors General, would receive the sanction of Parliament. He was happy to say that the privileges accorded to the Canadians of being allowed to manage their own internal affairs, had been very successful in reconciling all classes in the colony to the existing system of government, and to cause them to regard with warm attachment this country. Her Majesty, and the institutions under which they lived; ill proof of which he referred to several memorials and grand-jury addresses that had lately been received from both the French and English portions of the population. All the attempts that had been made, even during the recent events in Europe, to produce agitation in Canada, had totally failed, and the colony now enjoyed a degree of peace and of general content which he believed had never before prevailed. These were the results of allowing the Canadians to manage their own affairs: he was persuaded that the principle was right and just in itself, and he hoped their Lordships would agree to it.
Bill 3a, and passed.
House adjourned.