Lords Sitting of 29 February 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Rivers.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Consolidated Fund.
2a New Zealand Government.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Operative Shipwrights of the Port of London, that the Navigation Laws may be Maintained as they at present stand.—From Doune, against the Game Laws.—From Exeter, and other Places, against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome, Bill.—By the Bishop of Oxford, from Tunbridge Wells, and Benedon, for the Removal of the Jewish Disabilities.

THE CLERK ASSISTANT.
THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved the Order of the Day for taking into consideration the Letter of John William Newell Birch, Esq., tendering the resignation of his office of Clerk Assistant, and observed that their Lordships would probably feel it right, in parting with their old servant, to express the just sense they entertained of the zeal and ability shown by Mr. Birch in executing the important duties of his office. And it was therefore Moved to Resolve—
"That this House think it right to record the just Sense which they entertain of the Zeal, Ability, Diligence', and Integrity with which the said John William Newell Birch, Esquire, has exe-
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cuted the important Duties of the Office of Clerk Assistant of this House."
THE DUKE of RICHMONDwas happy in being able to bear the highest testimony to the zeal, efficiency, and gentleman-like conduct always shown by Mr. Birch. He was sure he was only speaking the sentiments of those present, when he said they wished him many years of health and happiness to enjoy that retirement which his public services deserved.
On Question, agreed to, Nemine Dissentiente:—
"Ordered, That the Lord Chancellor do communicate the said Resolution to John William Newell Birch, Esquire."
Then it was Moved to Resolve—
"That in accordance with the Resolutions of this House of the 14th of June, 1824, the said John William Newell Birch be allowed a retiring Salary of 2,000 l. a Year, to be charged on the Fee Fund of this House, and to commence from this Day:"
On Question, agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

WRECK OF THE AVENGER.
The EARL of MALMESBURY, seeing the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty

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in his place, wished to know whether the Government had thought it fit to show any token of their gratitude, in the shape of some reward to those Arab fishermen—for such he believed they were—who saved the unhappy survivors of the Avenger from a certain grave. He thought it would be politic as well as right to do so, because a similar accident might occur on that inhospitable coast again; and this certainly deserved some token of our gratitude. He would also allude to a case in which like humanity had been shown in another quarter of the world, on the coast of Ireland, where a poor family not only saved, but shared their stock of victuals for the winter, with six survivors of shipwreck. He thought it would be fit for Her Majesty's Government to show their sense of such excellent conduct.
The EARL of AUCKLANDwas very glad to be able to state, in answer to the noble Earl's observations, that immediately upon hearing of the assistance afforded by the Arabs to the survivors of the wreck of the Avenger orders had been issued to the naval authorities on the Mediterranean station to find out those men, and give them some reward for their humane conduct, which might serve as a mark of the approbation of the British Government. Not only had this been done in the case of the Arabs, but in that of every other party concerned—the officers of the Bey of Tunis, and the captain of the French ship which had repaired to the scene of the wreck. His noble Friend had also adverted to the circumstance which had taken place on the Irish coast. He remembered the occurrence being brought to his attention, and having given some direction respecting it, that some notice should be taken of the case; but he was not, at the moment, able to say precisely what had been done; he rather thought that a recommendation of the case had been forwarded to the Committee of Lloyd's.
The EARL of MALMESBURYexpressed his satisfaction.

NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
EARL GREY, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, stated that the object was to effect a suspension for five years of certain arrangements which had been made for the government of New Zealand. The grounds on which this measure was proposed were so clear, that it would not be necessary for him to trouble their Lordships
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at much length. It would be recollected that in 1840 it was decided to make an experiment in regular colonisation, and a large number of English settlers left this country to plant a colony in New Zealand. Hopes, at first very sanguine, were, however, in no long time entirely frustrated, and prospects which seemed of the brightest order were overthrown. In the summer of 1845 the state of affairs in New Zealand had become so threatening, that his noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley), who then held the seals of the Colonial Department, thought it necessary to recall the then Governor. He was most happy to bear his testimony to the zeal with which the present Governor of New Zealand had performed the duties assigned to him, because certainly at the time when that appointment was announced in the other House of Parliament, he (Earl Grey) was one of those who did not think it altogether judicious. It was not because he had not, even at that time, a very high opinion of Captain Grey, but because, looking to the difficulties he would have to contend with in introducing a new system of administration, and the opposition that might be expected from the subordinate officers engaged in carrying out the former system, and considering that he would have to communicate with naval and military officers who had seen longer service and had attained higher rank than that of Captain in the Army, he feared the Governor would want that personal weight and authority which, in offices of this kind, were of extreme importance. But he was rejoiced to declare that those apprehensions had proved entirely unfounded, and that the energy and ability of the new Governor of New Zealand had more than supplied the place of those adventitious advantages. From the very moment of his landing on the shores of New Zealand, he seemed to obtain the confidence and exercise an ascendancy over all around him, which were the strongest and clearest proofs of a superior mind. The change in the aspect of affairs which took place on the Governor's arrival was no less rapid than gratifying. When, in November, 1845, Captain Grey reached the colony, he found affairs in the utmost state of confusion; the colonial revenue had dwindled almost to nothing; rebellious natives, in spite of all opposition, were invading and plundering the British settlements, and, elated with their success, they held in contempt a Government which they found too

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feeble to offer effectual resistance to their attacks; those natives who still retained respect for British authority placed no reliance upon the power of the Government to protect them; the British settlers were discouraged and desponding; and, what was still worse, the military and naval forces were beginning to be dispirited by the ill-success which had attended their operations. In the course of five or six weeks the whole aspect of affairs was changed. Many laws and ordinances had been passed to meet the most pressing exigencies of the time; amongst these one against which the Governor was warned, but in which he wisely persisted, to prohibit the import of arms and ammunition; for, strange as it might appear, although the colony was in a state of war, no attempt had until that time been made to prevent a trade in arms and ammunition from being carried on with the hostile natives. Public confidence was completely restored; most successful expeditions were undertaken against the hostile tribes; in a short time the rebellion was almost entirely quelled; and from that period to the present the condition of the colony had been steadily improving. It was true that hostilities had more than once broken out in different parts of the island; but the measures of the Governor for the suppression of such disturbances, and for the maintenance of the public peace, had been attended with uniform success, and he had secured in the highest degree the confidence both of the native inhabitants and of the British settlers. The natives had also made extraordinary advances in intelligence, education, and civilisation, and chiefly by their instrumentality great public works had been undertaken, and important lines of communication had been constructed, opening out large and fertile districts to cultivation and settlement. The revenue had increased beyond the most sanguine expectation—trade also had shown in that increase its flourishing and prosperous condition. He had stated these facts not merely in order to pay the present Governor of New Zealand a tribute to which he was most justly entitled, but also to show their Lordships how inexpedient it would be, in considering the affairs of this island, not to be guided almost implicitly by the advice received from a person on the spot, who had shown practically that he so thoroughly understood the position and interests of the colony. He must say that, looking at what Governor Grey had
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achieved in New Zealand, he thought it would involve no little presumption to think they could form a judgment of the measures that should be adopted there better than himself. Accordingly, the measure which he (Earl Grey) was about to ask their Lordships to sanction, was founded almost entirely on the recommendations of Captain Grey. Before, however, he proceeded to explain the details of that Bill, it was necessary that he should briefly state the nature of the measure which had previously been sanctioned by Parliament for the government of New Zealand, and which it was now proposed to supersede. Their Lordships were aware of the disasters which had unfortunately occurred in New Zealand after it became an avowed British colony; and, though he was anxious not to give pain to any one connected with administering the affairs of that colony, he felt bound to say that, in his conviction, those disasters were entirely attributable to the mistakes of those to whom the powers of government were intrusted. Looking, therefore, at the great distance at which we were removed from New Zealand, and the slight control which we could exercise over the course of events, it was considered desirable that a much larger control than they had previously possessed over colonial affairs should be given to the settlers; and that opinion had been almost unanimously expressed in the other House of Parliament. Although many objections might be urged against such a scheme, he considered it was better that the chief control over the affairs of New Zealand should be lodged in the hands of the settlers themselves, rather than in those of a Governor appointed by the Home Government. In 1846, when Her Majesty's present advisers came into office, the latest advices received from New Zealand did not extend to a period of more than five or six weeks after Captain Grey had assumed the administration of affairs; and though much had been accomplished even in that short time, there appeared to be nothing in the then existing state of affairs to alter the opinion which had been previously entertained as to the expediency of giving a greater share of power to the settlers. That opinion was further confirmed by the fact that the unfortunate mistakes which had been committed, and the disasters which had occurred in New Zealand, had so completely destroyed all confidence in the local Government, on the part of persons in this country who were

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interested in the affairs of the colony, that unless some more popular form of government were established, there appeared no means of reviving the spirit of enterprise in New Zealand colonisation which had existed a few years before, but which then seemed utterly quenched and extinguished. It certainly was highly desirable, if possible, to revive that spirit of enterprise, and again to direct the stream of emigration to the shores of New Zealand; and this consideration led him to the conclusion that, though it was difficult for an Administration which succeeded to office in July, only just before the termination of the Session, to submit a properly matured measure to Parliament, yet that the Government were bound to make an effort to establish a more popular form of government in New Zealand. Accordingly he recommended to his Colleagues, who concurred with him, that a Bill to effect that object should be submitted to Parliament with the least possible delay; and the result was, that the measure—the operation of which he now proposed to suspend by the present Bill—was introduced and adopted by the Legislature. It might be necessary, before he went further, that he should explain the nature of the form of government which it was proposed to establish in New Zealand under the authority of that Act and of the Charter, and the Royal instructions issued under its provisions. The foundation of this new system of government was intended to be the creation of municipal institutions; and, in adopting that plan, the Government were acting, he believed, in conformity with the opinion of almost every person who had considered the subject of colonial—he might almost say of representative—government. He believed that the success of free institions in this country was attributable, in a great measure, to the degree to which the administration of affairs was committed to local bodies; and it had been said, by a high authority, that of Burke, that in the most flourishing colonies of Great Britain general government was built up upon the municipal institutions of the mother country. Such had been the case in the United States, where the foundation on which the Government rested was the form of the early New England States which prevailed there from the first. Any system of government, in fact, which did not contain this principle was liable to great embarrassment and to confusion without end; and he had no need in proof
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of that to call their Lordships' attention to the language of the report on the government of Canada, which justly stated that the absence of any system of this nature in Lower Canada had tended to the very injurious consequences which had lately affected that province. It was proposed, therefore, to introduce this principle into the government of New Zealand, by making the municipal bodies, the electors, the representative branch of the general body of the legislature, just in the same way as formerly in this country, when, as they all knew, a great many Members of the House of Commons were returned, not directly by the inhabitants of the towns, but by their various corporations. It was further proposed—as the object was to establish a popular Government in New Zealand—to follow the old model of colonial legislatures, rather than the systems which had been adopted in later days. It was accordingly proposed to model the constitution of New Zealand upon those of Jamaica, Barbadoes, and some of the earlier colonies, and, instead of allowing the nominees of the Crown and representatives of the people to meet together in a single chamber, to establish a House of Assembly, consisting exclusively of representatives of the people, and a Council, consisting of persons nominated by the authority of the Crown. But in New Zealand a still further difficulty was to be encountered in consequence of the peculiar circumstances of the colony, an the distance between the two most important settlements, Auckland and Wellington. Those places were about 400 miles apart, and the communication was difficult and uncertain. If the seat of Government had been fixed at either of those places it would have been highly inconvenient to the inhabitants of the other; and this inconvenience would have been increased in consequence of the jealousy existing between the two towns as to which should be the capital of the colony. It, therefore, seemed advisable that two legislative bodies should be established—one at Auckland and the other at Wellington—and that the colony should be divided into two distinct provinces. But if two legislatures had been instituted, each being enabled to act without reference to the proceedings of the other, great inconvenience might have arisen had there been no other arrangements accompanying it. For instance, they might adopt different customs duties in each province, and thus render a line of internal customhouses

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necessary along their boundaries. It was thought advisable, in order to obviate such an evil and to establish a joint authority, that there should be a power vested in the two legislatures to depute a certain number of their body to meet for a short time, and for a certain limited object, with power to settle all matters of general interest to the colony at large. It did not appear necessary that this body should meet at any stated period; and it had therefore been proposed that, if occasion arose, provision should be made for calling together for a short time, and for special and limited objects, the body having these general powers. As there would be some difficulty and embarrassment in making the natives resident within the municipalities liable to the provisions of Acts which they did not understand, it was proposed that the authority of the English law should not extend to them, but that they should enjoy their own customs and laws in every part of the island except in those places where municipalities should be established. Such was the general design embodied in the measure, many subsidiary matters being left to be arranged by the Governor and by the new Legislature, on whom devolved the task of working out their own system of government. If it were prudent and possible to establish a popular Government in New Zealand, he had no reason to infer from the despatches of Governor Grey that he saw any reason to object to that form, although he stated that he could not safely at present establish it to the extent to which the Home Government proposed to go. The main ground on which the Governor objected to the immediate creation of the system of representative government seemed to be, not that the people were unfit for it, but that the natives, though not much advanced in civilisation, were so far intelligent and enlightened, that they could not fail to perceive the injustice of the revenue, which was chiefly raised on imports for their own use, appropriated by a legislature in which they had no voice. He (Earl Grey) certainly had not been prepared to find that those whom a few years ago he looked upon as mere barbarians and unenlightened savages, were now so civilised as to comprehend an injustice of this nature. The noble Earl then proceeded to refer to a despatch from Governor Grey, dated November, 1846, in which he stated his reasons for thinking the constitution should be suspended. As long as
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New Zealand did not pay her expenses, he did not think the settlers had the same just right to complain of not enjoying a complete representative government as other colonies, which were more able to maintain it. In a very few years, he hoped and trusted, she would be able to pay the expenses of her own Government, and be in a situation in which she might be safely entrusted with a greater share of authority. Looking, then, to the propriety and expediency of establishing a popular government in New Zealand, the present proposal of Government was only to suspend the constitution for a period of five years. It did not follow, at the end of this period, that this particular scheme of government was to come into operation; but the mode now adopted was the proper way in which the attention of Parliament was directed to the subject, while it afforded an opportunity at the end of the time for them to determine what measure they would adopt in its place, by rendering it necessary for them to review the whole matter again. Governor Grey thought the element of representation might be introduced to a certain extent, but that it could not be established at once. The noble Earl again referred to extracts from the despatches of Governor Grey, for the purpose of showing that the provisions of the Bill now proposed were founded on, or consonant with, his suggestions. In a despatch, dated 13th May, he said—
"I think that perhaps until this country is a little more settled down, your Lordship's views with regard to the government of it might be fully met, if it were, as proposed, divided into two colonies, with such a general executive government and executive government for each colony as is now provided for in the recent charter and instructions; whilst for the present the legislative body of each colony should consist of one chamber, composed of the Governor and official and unofficial members, the latter of whom might in the southern colony be at once elected by the people. The general assembly might then, in like manner, consist of one chamber, composed of all the members of the legislative council of each colony; and its meetings, mode of proceeding, &c, might all be conducted in the manner which is proposed."
As to the mode of introducing the present Bill, which the Government at home thought expedient in consequence of the advice of Governor Grey, he (Earl Grey) thought they should look to him for counsel. To attempt to define precisely to what extent the principle of representation should be introduced, was a task for the proper execution of which sufficient materials did not exist in this country. Governor

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Grey, in his despatch of 7th October, 1846, said—
"But there are a number of questions connected with the introduction of such institutions, which I confess I think can only he properly determined by inquiry upon the spot, such as the limits of the various electoral districts; the proportion of members from town and country districts; the precise qualification of electors; the places for polling; and questions of a like nature. These questions, I think, the officer administering the Government in that colony should be required to determine, with the assistance of a legislative council, constituted in the usual manner. If the number of members in that council was extended to ten, five official and five unofficial, and the members were judiciously selected, as I have no doubt they would be, the officer administering the government would have the benefit of the best possible advice; and these questions of a really practical nature would be discussed upon the spot, and under such circumstances as would, I have no doubt, secure the efficient and satisfactory working of the institutions which might be introduced, and which when thus settled would provide a legislative body which would forthwith replace that which had previously existed."
The Legislative Council as it previously existed would be re-established, but at the same time Government would be enabled to nominate additional members, and by them to pass ordinances, making subordinate legislatures in the two provinces. In a despatch, dated 7th October, 1846, Governor Grey recommended that a period of time should elapse before any attempt were made in the northern province to introduce this system of legislation. On fully considering the despatches received from the same gentleman, he saw no reason for suspending the operation of so much of the present charter as related to the creation of municipal institutions, or for believing it might not be safely allowed to continue. The number of natives within the municipalities was inconsiderable, and of those a great number would be found fit to exercise the minor municipal offices. The instructions sent to the Governor of the colony in 1846 provided that the franchise should be exercised by such persons only as were able to read and write English; but Governor Grey wrote home, that though by far the majority of the natives could read and write their own language, and many could speak English, he knew no one of them who could read and write English. He (Earl Grey) had not been quite prepared to hear that statement; but no doubt it was one of considerable importance. He (Earl Grey) approved of endeavours to extend the English language in the colonies. By far the closest bond of union that could exist between this country
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and the colonists was the use of the same tongue; and when the people of the colonies spoke a different language from the governing authorities, affairs seldom happened to proceed entirely satisfactorily. He therefore concurred in the policy on which he believed the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had acted—that of endeavouring to induce the inhabitants of English colonies to use the English language. He thought it a great error on the part of the missionaries in New Zealand that they had reduced the barbarous language of the tribes there to the condition of a written language; and he believed that it would have been far more advantageous if from the beginning, when the natives were taught to read and write, they had been taught to read and write the English language. In that case they would have enjoyed the immense benefit of being put at once into possession of those great intellectual advantages which our language was the medium of conveying; but so long as the New Zealand tongue was made the means of instruction for the natives they would be excluded from those ideas and that information which centuries of civilisation had introduced into this country; or could at most only become acquainted with them by means of the necessarily imperfect translations of English books and English ideas into their rude and inartificial language. Under existing circumstances, then, it was proposed by the present Bill to leave to the Governor the power of regulating the qualification for burgesses in corporate districts, though he (Earl Grey) thought that, after a reasonable interval, the power of reading and writing English should be enforced as a necessary qualification for any franchise. Looking, then, at all that could be said on both sides of the several questions that had been brought under the notice of their Lordships, he ventured to believe that the balance of advantage was in favour of the course pursued by the Government; and he thought that he should at present best discharge his duty as a Member of that House and a Member of the Government by abstaining from any remarks which were not strictly connected with a reform in the administration of the affairs of New Zealand and would conclude by simply moving that the Bill be now read a second time.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that the noble Lord who had just concluded his speech, told them that he had confined himself to the topics which were strictly connected with the government of New Zealand.

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New, he would take the liberty of saying that the noble Earl had not practised any such abstinence; for his own part, he must say, that with every disposition to adopt the measure proposed by the Government, he did not see, even upon the statement of; the noble Earl himself, any near prospect of the settlement which he anticipated, and which, under the present circumstances of the colony, it was most desirable should be accomplished with the least possible delay. He wished at the outset to remind their Lordships that Parliament need not fall into any inconsistency in the character of its legislation with regard to New Zealand. It must, of course, be in their Lordships' recollection, that at the end of a very long and eventful Session, when the noble Earl came into office, he proposed a Bill, out of which this measure necessarily arose. That Bill did not make further provision for the better government of New Zealand; but, on the contrary, its purpose was to give power to the Government at home to make regulations for the bettor government of New Zealand. Under that Bill certain instructions had been issued to the authorities at New Zealand, and in those instructions there being certain defects or imperfections, the Bill now before their Lordships had been introduced for the purpose of remedying the instructions issued under the authority of the previous Act; and it was not at all for the purpose of altering the Act itself, that the present measure had been introduced. He did not mean to say that if he had been in his place in Parliament he should have opposed the former Act; he believed he should have given his assent to it, for this among other reasons, that he thought the less that Parliament interfered with the discretionary powers intrusted to the Secretary of State, the better would the colonies of this country be governed. He cordially assented, then, to the provisions of the Bill, so far as it entrusted to the Crown the power of framing regulations for the government of New Zealand. Still, he thought that the measure had been hastily and prematurely introduced. He believed that it was an ill-judged concession to a demand for popular rights, without due consideration being paid to certain existing circumstances in the case which made the bestowal of these popular rights premature and inexpedient. He need not now go back to the history of the early settlement of New Zealand, especially since the discussions which had arisen on that subject had been mixed up
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with no little acerbity and violence of feeling; but he might assuredly assert, that there existed particular circumstances connected with that colony which made the bestowal of popular rights upon one class, and one class alone, of the community, a matter of extreme delicacy and difficulty; while the Executive Power, both here and there, had a task of great nicety to perform in becoming the mediators between two races so dissimilar in their habits and their origin. He had listened with great gratification to the eulogy pronounced by the noble Earl upon the ability, zeal, and prudence which had been displayed by the present Governor of New Zealand—to the testimony borne by the noble Earl to the executive merits of Governor Grey. He, on his own part, was perfectly willing to bear his most cheerful testimony to the merits of Governor Grey. He had had the satisfaction of selecting him for that office, and conferring on him that appointment; but in listening to the praises of that able and skilful administrator of colonial affairs, he could not help regretting that the noble Earl opposite had thought it necessary invidiously to contrast the merits of Captain Grey with those of his predecessor. Although he (Lord Stanley) thought that Captain Fitzroy had acted with imprudence in many respects, and although he had felt it to be his duty to recall him, still, he would say, that there never was a man who, in the performance of his public duties, was actuated by more honourable, more high, and more praiseworthy principles. He took the government of New Zealand at great personal loss to himself; by taking it he sacrificed the position which he had previously held in this country; he relinquished much which few men would willingly give up, for the purpose of doing that which he believed would be for the public good. Then, in any attempt to contrast the conduct of one Governor with that of another, it was not to be forgotten that much larger means and authority had been given to Captain Grey than had ever been conferred upon Captain Fitzroy; and thus another lesson had been given which he hoped would not be lost on the other House of Parliament, and more especially he hoped that the other lesson which our experience in this matter taught would not be thrown away upon either House of Parliament. From its outset, they were told, the colony was to be a self-supporting colony, in which a population from this country were to be set down and

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at once surrounded by all the comforts of civilised life. And this was to be done without the slightest expenditure on the part of this country. There were to be no demands for military or naval forces. The colony was to enjoy free institutions, and to support itself. Such were the promises. What were the facts? In a short time it was found necessary to apply for considerable annual grants in aid of the colony. In 1846, Captain Grey stated in one of his despatches that 36,000 l. a year for several years would be requisite for the support of the colonial institutions—that a permanent force of from 2,000 to 2,500 men would be necessary to maintain order, and protect the interests of natives and settlers—and that a vessel of war would be always required to be stationed on the coast. And this he might remark, in passing, was the way in which colonial establishments were forced upon Governments; and thus it was that when the necessary expenditure was incurred, Governments were again charged with having lost sight of any principle of retrenchment and economy. The fact was, that if we insisted upon having distant settlements all over the world—if we chose to allow our subjects to settle here and there, and to erect colonies which they promised should be self-supporting—if we continued to pursue this policy, then every new settlement would be a new deception, and every new establishment an inevitable source of increase in our naval and military as well as in our civil expenditure. To return to the affairs of New Zealand. Whatever might be the protests, and whatever might be the declarations made on the subject before Captain Fitzroy was sent out, there could be no doubt of the fact that after he went to New Zealand he found himself in a position of great difficulty, and felt the necessity for a naval and military force insurmountable. He had great difficulties with which to contend. He found in the colony natives in number about 120,000, armed, active, and intelligent men; the Europeans not amounting to 12,000, and scarcely a soldier to aid him in maintaining peace between the natives and the settlers: it was not just or generous to say that under such circumstances Captain Fitzroy had failed in an experiment wherein Captain Grey had succeeded; neither was it wise to give much weight to many of the theories which went abroad respecting our intercourse with uncivilised tribes; there seemed to be a great disposition to underrate the physical
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means which they possessed, and the degree of civilisation which they enjoyed. Every year new facts must come to the knowledge of the Government, tending to undeceive them on those points. In illustration of the errors which prevailed on these subjects, he might be allowed to recall the attention of the House to the terms in which the noble Earl opposite spoke of the language of the native inhabitants of New Zealand. He described it as a barbarous dialect, through the agency of which no complex ideas could be expressed, or any subtle principles conveyed; in reply to that he should merely observe, that from one specimen alone it might be considered quite sufficient for all the purposes of ordinary business. It was said by those so-called barbarians, that "the Sovereign of this country was to have the shadow of the land, but that the substance of the soil should still rest in the natives." This was an expression which could not be couched in a rude and barbarous and defective tongue, any more than the idea which it metaphorically conveyed could have been conceived by a savage and unintelligent people. He would beg to remind their Lordships of another proof of the civilisation of the New Zealanders—they all remembered the case of the woman and the two children who were taken in a loghouse, when her husband and another soldier were killed in battle; the woman and the children were passed forward to the European troops at a time when the natives were in a state of the highest possible excitement. A more recent case occurred in a skirmish where two or three soldiers were killed; and, so far from the natives committing any act of indecency, or in any manner mutilating the corpses of their fallen enemies, they took the bodies of the soldiers and performed the burial service over them. Then, in the year 1846, a despatch from Governor Grey informed the Government that the native inhabitants of New Zealand had no objection to customs duties; they said they were aware that no Government could go on without revenues; that luxuries and necessaries imported into New Zealand might fairly be charged with the expenses of the system under which they were introduced; and that the consumers of such articles ought to pay for them whatever was in its own nature reasonable. They considered, that so long as the Government revenues were derived from duties on luxuries, the Government would have a deep interest in the prosperity

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and well-being of the natives of New Zealand, and that gave them the best possible security that the happiness of their social state would be identified with the interests of the Government. A people who reasoned thus required no enlightenment from the science of political economy. Governor Grey had stated some very satisfactory facts respecting the works of improvement undertaken and executed by natives of New Zealand. In one of his despatches he enclosed a report from Major Marlow, commanding the Royal Engineers, from which it appeared, that about 70 natives were then daily employed upon the works in progress by the Engineer Department; that many of these men were, in some kinds of skilled labour, equal to European mechanics; and a party of Maories had, unassisted by Europeans, built a wall of considerable extent in a most creditable manner; that out of 67 men employed by Major Marlow on one work, there was not one who could not read his language, and only one who could not write; that during six months there had been only one case of drunkenness amongst the natives employed by the Engineer Department, and that many laid by a portion of their wages; whilst nothing could be more satisfactory than the testimony borne by Major Marlow to the moral and religious character of the natives he employed. These people, therefore, were not to be termed savages. He now called the attention of their Lordships to the proposition of the noble Earl, and to the necessity assigned for the Bill he had brought forward. The only ground for the measure was, that although Her Majesty had the power of amending or repealing the letters patent and instructions, there was a doubt whether Her Majesty had the power to suspend them. If, therefore, the noble Earl had not insisted upon the principle of suspension, leaving it to the Governor of the colony to carry the constitution into effect; if he had been only satisfied with advising Her Majesty to amend or repeal so much of the letters patent or instructions as he now proposed to suspend, there would have been no necessity for coming before their Lordships at all. With respect to the constitution itself, some things had been said by the noble Earl with which he (Lord Stanley) cordially agreed. He concurred with him in the expediency of granting to a colony like New Zealand a certain degree of power to exercise local taxation and local government; but he
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must say, although he was willing to give municipal institutions to the settlers, those institutions, and the nature of the functions to be exercised by the settlers, ought to be adapted to the numbers of the population, and not to be such as were totally incompatible with their circumstances. If power were given to the settlers to impose taxes for local improvements, a power which had nothing to do with general legislation, all would be done that was required. The European population of the islands was 12,000, or 14,000, or 16,000; and what was the machinery of government to be given to these 16,000 persons? There was a Governor-in-chief, two lieutenant-governors, a general legislative council, and provincial legislative councils, representative assemblies, mayors, and town-councils, and all for 16,000 persons. There would be hardly a single individual who would not be one of these functionaries; they would be all elected, and no electors. In the despatch of Governor Grey to the noble Earl, pointing out the inexpediency of introducing the new constitution into New Ulster, he said—
"By the introduction of the proposed constitution Her Majesty will not confer, as is intended, upon Her subjects the inestimable advantages of self-government, but she will give to a small fraction of one race the power of governing the large majority of Her subjects of a different race. She will not give to Her subjects the valuable privilege of appropriating as they think proper a large revenue raised by taxation from the great majority of Her subjects of another race; and these further difficulties attend this question, that the race which is in the majority is much the most powerful of the two; the people belonging to it are well armed, proud, and independent, and there is no reason that I am acquainted with to think that they would be satisfied with, and submit to, the rule of the minority, whilst there are many reasons to believe that they will resist it to the utmost. Her Majesty's native subjects will certainly be exceedingly indignant at finding that they are placed in a position of inferiority to the European population. A great change has also recently taken place in their position; the mutual jealousies and animosities of the tribes have greatly disappeared, and a feeling of class or race is rapidly springing up, and has been greatly fomented by the efforts which have been made by designing Europeans to obtain their lands from them for a merely nominal consideration."
This was a point to which the noble Earl adverted when he said that if any observations were made connected with it, he should be ready to reply to them. He (Lord Stanley) did not mean to revive the question between Her Majesty's Government and the New Zealand Company; but of this he was convinced, that the principle of the possession and the enjoyment

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of the rights of landed property, together with all that belonged to that landed property, by the people of New Zealand—he was convinced that that principle it was, which, explained by the missionaries, was the one on which the natives assented to receive the sovereignty of Great Britain; and that no attempt could be made by this country to infringe upon the sacredness of that principle, without raising a just, he would add, a dangerous feeling of resentment in the minds of the natives themselves. With respect to the protest of the Bishop of New Zealand, the noble Earl had used very strong language regarding it, and inveighed against what he termed its imprudent tone and dangerous tendency. As to the motives and zeal of the right rev. Prelate, no man could for an instant entertain a doubt; and he was of opinion, without pretending to canvass the general subject, that his error, if error it were, was very pardonable. He must say that he had understood the despatch of the noble Earl in the same light as that in which it appeared to be understood by the right rev. Prelate, and that a distinct instruction was given not to give way except in particular cases, and not to abandon the principle that the natives had no right to the land. The noble Earl had undoubtedly qualified that passage in his despatch; but he (Lord Stanley) was not sure that the noble Earl had not reserved to the Governor of the colony a distinct power not to part with land but upon the principle he had laid down, and had not required him not to abandon the principle that the native tribes had no right of property in land which they did not occupy, and which had remained unsubdued to the purposes of man. Upon this subject, which he thought was indissolubly connected with all legislation respecting the islands, he was surprised that the papers laid before Parliament contained no opinion of Captain Grey as to the instructions he had received from the noble Earl upon that head. He firmly believed that Captain Grey (and he would not hold the same high opinion of him which he held did he think otherwise) was as much determined to maintain the principle of the sacredness of the right of the tribes to their land, and to maintain that principle as binding on the British Government. He was firmly persuaded that the natives would not permit their land to be taken from them by force, although they were willing to make it over to the Government by a fair contract, bargain, and sale. He
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did not dissent from the proposition of establishing some degree of local self-government in New Zealand; but he entertained great doubt whether the principle of a general legislature could be introduced into the colony—an imitation, as it was supposed, of the British constitution, though it had not the slightest resemblance to the British constitution. It was said, that it was an indefeasible right belonging to British subjects, when they went out to a colony, that they carried their constitution with them. But it was impossible to transplant constitutions; and when people talked of the British constitution in the colonies, all they talked of was a representative House of Assembly; and they considered that as the British constitution, forgetting that there were other important elements, namely, the Executive Ministers of the Crown and a House of Lords. He thought that the promulgation of his views by the noble Earl, without a previous communication with the Governor of the colony, was an imprudent and a hasty act; it did appear to him that it would have been infinitely better had the noble Earl advised Her Majesty simply to repeal the constitution, and restore everything precisely to the same footing which it had stood in 1840, on waiting till legislative functions bad developed themselves, and the Governor of the colony had declared that the time was ripe for transplanting the principle of representative government. Now the noble Earl had taken a contrary course. First, he called upon Parliament to agree to this measure, and then he called upon Parliament to interfere and suspend it, placing the Governor in a position in which he ought not to be placed, subject to all the liabilities of rejecting or granting these privileges—in fact, endowing him with a power which he ought not to possess. The better course would certainly have been to have permitted the Governor to have framed his own measures—to have given him an opportunity of explaining them in principle and detail—and then to have advised Her Majesty, after duly weighing the whole matter, that she could safely assent to the proposed measures. He could not really see the reason why the word "repeal" was not substituted for "suspend."
EARL GREYsaid, that the Crown lawyers had been consulted upon the question, and they were of opinion that, although it was in the power of the Crown to suspend or repeal for the purpose of amendment,

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the constitution could not be absolutely suspended without the consent of Parliament.
LORD STANLEYsaid, it was only another proof of the ingenuity of the gentlemen of the legal profession, who were able to raise questions where none could be reasonably expected to arise. These gentlemen came to that opinion in the very teeth of an Act of Parliament, which expressly provided that the Crown might from time to time either repeal or amend these institutions as occasion might require. It would be very difficult to convince him, with all due deference to the opinion of the legal gentlemen, that they had not the power to repeal except by the way of amendment. With regard to this point of suspension, he thought that it would be much better if the constitution had been wholly repealed instead of being suspended. The noble Earl had stated, that where there were existing institutions, it was not usual or constitutional to proceed otherwise than by suspension; but he would remind him that, in this case, there were no institutions existing—they had been merely created, but had never been in operation, so they were about to suspend that which never existed, and to cancel that which had no presence. They might talk of the British constitution, but it was not such; it was not even a representation of the British constitution. It was after the model of the French constitution. They constructed an electoral chamber, which then chose the elective body. He did not mean to offer any opposition to the Bill, as he thought the less Parliament interfered in the management of the colonies, and the more it left to the discretion of the Secretary, the better it would be for all parties. Besides, he thought that it was a step in the right direction, and he therefore did not think himself bound to offer any opposition to the second reading.
EARL WALDEGRAVEwas understood to approve of the second reading.
The EARL of ST. GERMANSalso approved of the greater portion of the Bill. He felt satisfied, from experience, of the soundness of the system of self-supporting colonies. Notwithstanding the severe strictures of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley), he believed that the noble Earl, in his despatch to the Governor of New Zealand, laid down general doctrines which were quite incontrovertible, and which had been acted upon by this country from the earliest period of colonisation. Those doctrines
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were acknowledged to be true by all writers upon the subject. It was utterly impossible to give to barbarians the right of sovereignty, as they were incapable of government. He (the Earl of St. Germans) could not entirely assent to the principle of this Bill. He gave the noble Earl the fullest credit for the motives which, in 1846, urged him, probably with some degree of undue precipitation, to the measure which conferred upon the people of New Zealand the privileges of local institutions. In urging forward such a measure, he believed that the noble Earl yielded to the wishes of all parties in this country. But he thought that this measure would deprive the people of New Zealand of privileges to which they had become fairly entitled. He would, nevertheless, refrain from taking upon himself the responsibility of checking its progress.
EARL GREYreplied: Between him and the Governor of New Zealand there was not a shadow of a difference of opinion. No man held more strongly than the Governor did, the absolute necessity of insisting on the carrying out of the doctrine that all title to land in colonisation must be derived from the Crown. The Crown was the trustee for the general benefit of the population, native as well as settlers. The natives were to be secured in the enjoyment of what was necessary for them according to the manner in which they had been accustomed to live; but what was wanting for the purposes of civilised men the Crown would insist on using. He begged to disclaim any intention of saying anything reflecting upon Captain Fitzroy, whose motives no man doubted to be otherwise than the most pure and honourable.
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned.