Lords Sitting of 24 February 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Incumbered Estates (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Parish of St. Marylebone, for the Imposition of the Severest Penalties on all those Roman Catholic Priests who shall Denounce Persons from the Altar. —From Glasgow, and several other Places, against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome Bill.— From Attleborough, and several other Places, against the Removal of Jewish Disabilities.—From Brechin and Perth, for facilitating the Attainment of Sites for Churches (Scotland).

THE "UNITED IRISHMAN."
LORD STANLEY: My Lords, with the permission of the noble Lord on the Woolsack, whose notice of Motion stands before mine upon the paper, I now rise for the purpose of calling your attention to the publication of a paper in Ireland, of which I gave notice a few evenings ago. In doing so, I shall trouble your Lordships with very few observations of my own, because the whole of my case depends on the extracts from the paper itself, and on the result of the questions which I shall have to put to Her Majesty's Government in connexion with them. It is only necessary to remind your Lordships, that in consequence of differences of opinion—not, indeed, as to the end aimed at, or the objects to be gained, but as to the mode of carrying them out—among the members composing the Repeal Associations, that body has been split into two sections, agreeing in their ultimate object, but entirely opposed as to the manner of effecting it. Of these two sections, the more prudent and cautious, acting on the principles of the policy which were pursued by Mr. O'Connell in his lifetime, and by his immediate followers since have adhered to the original body which meets in the miscalled Conciliation Hall. The more violent, anxious to take steps for the speedier attainment of their aims, have established a body which they term "The Irish Confederation." In the Irish Confederation, again, there has been some collision of opinion, of various degrees of incaution and imprudence, with respect to the proper course to be pursued by them for the attainment of their views. Shortly after an early meeting of the Confederation, two letters were published, one from Mr. Mitchell, and the other from Mr.

1243
Reilly, which appeared, even to this body, to be of such a dangerous and seditious tendency, that they were the subject of discussion; and, in order to show the spirit by which the Confederation was animated, I may add that a division took place, and by a majority of 317 to 188 this publication of the letters was condemned as being imprudent and incautious. Mr. Mitchell in consequence withdrew from the Confederation, and established a paper on his own account, which appeared for the first time on the 1st of this month, under the title of the United Irishman, to which I now call attention. Before I quote any of the articles which it contains, permit me at the outset to show your Lordships the language of the moderate party of the Irish Confederation, reported in the same paper, and which is stated to have been delivered by the same gentleman who condemned the publication of the letters I have before referred to as being imprudent. I shall read to your Lordships a portion of the speech made by Mr. Meagher in objecting to the course suggested by Mr. Mitchell, wherein he holds this language:—
"Is an insurrection probable? If probable, is it practicable? Prove to me that it is, and I, for one, will vote for it this very night. (Tremendous cheers.) You know well, my friends, that I am not one of those tame moralists who say that liberty is not worth a drop of blood. (Hear, hear.) Men who subscribe to such a maxim are fit for out-door relief, and for nothing better. (Cheers and laughter.) Against this miserable maxim, from every spot where heroism has had its sacrifice or its triumph, a voice breaks in upon the cringing crowds that cheer this wretched maxim, crying out—'Away with it, away with it.' (Tremendous cheers.) Would to God, Sir, that we could take every barrack in the island this night, and with our blood purchase the independence of the country! (Renewed and rapturous cheering.) It is not, then, a pedantic reverence for common law—it is not a senseless devotion to a diadem and sceptre—it is not a whining solicitude for the preservation of the species (laughter)—that dictates the vote I give this night in favour of a constitutional movement. I support this constitutional policy, not from choice, but from necessity. My strongest feelings are in favour of the policy advised by Mr. Mitchell. (Hear.) I wish to God that I could defend that policy. It is a policy which calls forth the noblest passions; it kindles genius, generosity, heroism; it is far removed from the tricks and crimes of politics. For the young, the gallant, and the good, it has the most powerful attractions. (Cheers.)"
Now, my Lords, in the last sentence of the speaker there is just so much truth as renders it necessary for me, in my judgment, to call your attention to it. It is true, these tales of oppression and tyranny
1244
are without ceasing inculcated in the minds of the people, and that the national resentment is stimulated by statements wholly unfounded or misrepresented and highly exaggerated. It is the young and highly spirited, whose reason is not matured in proportion to the heat of their blood or the fervour of their patriotism, who are the most likely to be misled by the attraction of this vehement and high-flown oratory—it is they who are the most likely to be led away, by their inexperience and by their sympathy with the very qualities which are not only blameless but laudable, till they become in the first instance the dupes, and eventually the victims, of those who are more crafty, more cautious, and more wicked than themselves. I say, then, it is time for your Lordships—and I say it is our duty to the State—to interfere and prevent this poison being poured into their ears. Having called your Lordships' attention to the tone used by the more moderate of the party which has been deserted by Mr. Mitchell, allow me to direct it, not to a mere casual article in a newspaper, but to the programme of the newspaper, and which declares the avowed and intended object with which it is established and circulated. In the first page there is a discussion as to the mode in which the independence of Ireland is to be attained; and the writer, in commenting upon the language in which Mr. O'Connell couched his recommendations, and after stating that, during Mr. O'Connell's agitations, the words "moral," "peaceful," and "legal," were reputed to mean the same thing, proceeds to say—
"Now, plainly, what is legal may be neither moral nor peaceful; and what is moral may be highly illegal, and the very reverse of peaceful. For example: the Irish Confederation's present plan of action is peaceful and legal, but immoral. Mr. Varian's plans are moral and also peaceful, but highly illegal. Our method is moral enough, but neither peaceful nor legal. Whosoever desires to shake off English dominion, and has a bonâfide suggestion to give for that end, may be a confederate of ours, and one of the United Irish of our Lodge."
These remarks, announcing the objects of the paper, were in the first number. The motto of the paper, taken from the writings of Theobald Wolfe Tone, is to the following effect:—
"Our independence must be had at all hazards. If the men of property will not support us, they must fall. We can support ourselves by the aid of that numerous and respectable class of the community—the men of no property."
The first article in this paper I shall now

1245
direct your attention to. I hope I shall not be thought desirous of interfering with the liberty of the press, or of interfering with the discretion of Government in this course. I am not seeking to call the attention of Government to a casual article, or to bring these gentlemen within the scope of the law for a hasty or ill-considered expression. No, my Lords, this is a different case. These passages to which I refer are contained in the programme of the course to be pursued, and of the object intended to be carried out, and of the string on which he intended constantly to harp, for the purpose of exciting sedition and rebellion among Her Majesty's subjects in Ireland. This article is in the shape of a letter, which is directed as follows:—
"TO THE RIGHT HON. THE EARL OF CLARENDON, ENGLISHMAN; CALLING HIMSELF HER MAJESTY'S LORD LIEUTENANT GENERAL AND GENERAL GOVERNOR OF IRELAND.
"My Lord—To you, as the official representative of foreign dominion in our enslaved island, I mean to address a few plain words upon the aim and design of this new journal, the United Irish-man, with which your Lordship and your Lordship's masters and servants are to have more to do than may be agreeable either to you or to me. Those words shall be so very plain, that even if your Lordship vouchsafe to read them, I count upon your being unable—because you are a Whig and a diplomatist—to understand them in their simple meaning. I am going to mystify 'the Government' and the lawyers by telling the naked truth, whereof they are all hereby to take notice. Simply, then, the United Irishman newspaper has been undertaken by men who see that the sway of your nation here is drawing near its latter day—who know that all its splendid apparatus of glittering soldiers and conciliating statesmen, all its obscure and obscene lower world of placemen, place-beggars, place-jobbers, spies, special jurors, informers, and suborners—that it is all a weak imposture, an ugly nightmare lying on the breast of our sick State—that it is made up of prestige, and maintained by 'striking terror,' and needs but a charm of truth, a few true words spoken, a few bold deeds done—and the whole hideous brood will vanish like foul fiends at cock-crow…
"An exact half-century has passed away since the last holy war waged in this island, to sweep it clear of the English name and nation. And we differ from the illustrious conspirators of '98, not in principle—no, not an iota—but, as I shall presently show you, materially as to the mode of action. Theirs was a secret conspiracy—ours is a public one. They had not learned the charm of open, honest, outspoken resistance to oppression; and through their secret organisation you wrought their ruin—we defy you, and all the informers and detectives that British corruption ever bred…
"For be it known to you, that in such a case you shall either publicly, boldly, notoriously pack a jury, or else see the accused rebel walk a free man out of the Court of Queen's Bench—which will be a victory only less than the rout of your Lordship's redcoats in the open field. And think you
1246
that in case of such a victory, I will not repeat the blow, and again repeat it, until all the world shall see that England's law does not govern this nation?….
"In plain English, my Lord Earl, the deep and irreconcilable disaffection of this people to all British laws, law-givers, and law-administrators, shall find a voice. That holy hatred of foreign dominion which nerved our noble predecessors fifty years ago, for the dungeon, the field, or the gallows (though of late years it has worn a vile nisi prius gown, and snivelled somewhat in courts of law and on spouting platforms), still lives, thank God! and glows as fierce and hot as ever. To educate holy hatred, to make it know itself, and avow itself, and at last fill itself full, I hereby devote the columns of the United Irishman.—And I have the honour to be, &c.
"JOHN MITCHEL."
Now, my Lords, I think, that whatever your Lordships' opinions may be of the expediency of prosecutions of this sort generally, you will not be of opinion that the language of this newspaper is of a common kind, and I need not therefore apologise for having called the attention of the Government to it. This is not, as I said before, a mere casual article in a newspaper—it is the declaration of the aim and object for which it is established, and of the design with which its promoters have set out; that object being to do everything possible to drive the people of Ireland to sedition, to urge them into open rebellion, and to promote civil war for the purpose of exterminating everything English in Ireland. I hope, my Lords, Her Majesty's Government will not say that this is a matter quite insignificant—that it is below contempt—and that we should allow it to pass by in silence. If such a publication had appeared in England, I should have been very much inclined to think the good sense and sound judgment, and loyalty of the people, would have revolted at the article at once as a seditious and coarse invective, whose very violence, like an over-dose of poison, prevented its effect, and in the minds of all rational beings rendered it utterly inoperative. But this language is addressed, not to the sober-minded and calm-thinking people of England, but to a people, hasty, excitable, enthusiastic, and easily stimulated, smarting under great and manifold distresses, and who have been for years excited to the utmost pitch to which they could go consistently with the safety of those who excited them, by the harangues of democrats and revolutionists. This paper was published at 5d.; but, as I am informed, when the first number appeared, so much was it sought after, that on its first apperance it was eagerly

1247
bought in the streets of Dublin at 1s. 6d. and 2s. a number. With the people of Ireland, my Lords, this language will tell; and I say it is not safe for you to disregard it. These men are honest; they are not the kind of trading politicians who make their patriotism the means of barter for place or pension. They are not to be bought off by the Government of the day for a colonial place, or by a snug situation in the Customs or Excise. No; they honestly repudiate this course; they are rebels at heart, and they are rebels avowed, who are in earnest in what they say and propose to do. My Lords, this is not a fit subject, at all events, for contempt. My belief is that these men are dangerous—my belief is that they are traitors in intent already, and if occasion offers that they will be traitors in fact. You may prosecute them—you may convict them; but depend upon it, my Lords, it is neither just to them nor safe for yourselves to allow such language to be indulged in. I believe, because I have this strong persuasion of the earnestness and honesty of these men, that it is my duty to call your Lordships' attention to the first number of this paper called the United Irishman, which is intended to produce an excitement loading to rebellion, for the purpose of showing you the language held forth and the objects avowed by these men, to whom a large portion of the people of Ireland look up with confidence, and for the purpose of asking Her Majesty's Government if this paper has come under their consideration, and if so, whether the law officers of the Crown in Ireland have been consulted, and if it is the intention of Government to take any notice of it?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that he wished to confine himself, on the present occasion, to an answer to the question of the noble Lord. He had no hesitation in stating, that he had seen the newspaper to which the noble Lord had alluded, and he could also have no hesitation in saying, that he had reason to believe that the noble Earl at the head of the Government in Ireland had had his attention directed to it, as indeed he knew of no occurrence material to the interests of that country to which the noble Earl's attention was not directed. He (the Marquess of Lansdowne) was perfectly prepared to say that he entirely agreed with the noble Lord opposite in thinking that the publication referred to proved that there was- no extent of sedition, falsehood,
1248
or exaggeration, to which, in the pursuit of notoriety, and in the exercise of their vocation, these young gentlemen of "no property" in Ireland were not ready to go; but, having said that, he certainly was not prepared to say that on every occasion, whatever might be the amount of malignity and sedition evinced in any publication, prosecution ought to be instituted merely on that account, and without reference to other circumstances. Still less was he prepared to say that Her Majesty's Government ought, on any occasion of this nature, by a direct and peremptory instruction to limit and to fetter that discretion of the noble Earl at the head of the Irish Government, which discretion they all knew had been up to the present period, upon every occasion, and would also be, he had no doubt, on every future occasion, exercised with the utmost judgment and attention to the circumstances of each case. Under these circumstances, no particular instructions had been forwarded on this subject by Her Majesty's Government. They knew that the noble Earl's (the Earl of Clarendon's) attention had been called to it; and they felt confident that he would act without delay as the circumstances of the case required; but he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) did not feel authorised to state that in the present circumstances of the case he had directed any such prosecution as the noble Lord pointed at to be commenced. He need not tell the noble Lord that there were cases (he did not at present say whether this was one) in which the character, or want of character, of the persons engaged, deprived the efforts, however malignant their intentions, of any mischievous effect, and, as the noble Lord had observed, made it questionable whether the extent of the malignity evinced did not render it innocuous, and whether the amount of the intended mischief did not of itself create that distrust and that feeling which proved the best punishment of those who contemplated it. He did not say that this consideration afforded a solution of the matter now under notice, as he was at present informed, but it was one which every wise Government would take into account. Leaving, however, the matter to the consideration of the Irish Government and of the noble Earl at its head, he felt confident that the judgment of those on the spot, applied to all the circumstances of the case, would be of a character likely to prove the most consistent with the public interests. He could

1249
not say any more in answer to the noble Lord on this subject.

INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLORrose to move the Second Reading of the Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, and proceeded to state the object and provisions of the measure. His Lordship was understood to say that, unfortunately for Ireland, the landed property there to a large extent was in a situation not only detrimental to those who had an interest in land, but also most injurious to the community at large; and, therefore, the importance of any measure intended to remedy acknowledged evils in respect to this matter would be admited. The great evil with respect to landed property in Ireland was, that a very largo portion of it was heavily incumbered by mortgages, charges, and other interests, so that the ostensible owner in some cases could hardly be said to have any estate in the land at all. He, consequently, was not in a condition to improve the estate, and find employment at the same time for the population. When a man was really and actually the owner of an estate, he had both the means and the motive for improving it; but it was impossible for a landlord whose income arising from his landed estate was intercepted by mortgages and other charges to perform those duties which a landlord should discharge. This was a most injurious state of things for all classes; and the existing state of the law afforded no sufficient means for removing the difficulty. Scarcely any one who had at any time turned his attention to subjects of this nature would fail to know that the interest paid for money invested in land could not be compared with the interest derived from capital engaged in other pursuits; and it was equally well known that from many estates in Ireland no income whatever was derived—that was to say, the whole proceeds of the estate were absorbed by the incumbrances; yet, if the owners of those estates were enabled to convert them into money, the balance, or residue, coming to such owners would often be of considerable amount, and would, if prudently invested, yield handsome incomes. Of course, no one would wish to see the mortgagors lose their estates; on the contrary, the purpose of the Bill was to enable the owners of encumbered estates to dispose of them to advantage, and to invest the proceeds of
1250
those estates in a beneficial manner. By changes of that kind persons of no capital would cease to be the nominal proprietors of land, and the real masters of the soil would then become the ostensible owners. Such persons would not think of purchasing land without possessing capital sufficient for its improvement; and under the altered condition of the relations of landed proprietors towards their tenants, towards each other, and towards the community at large, they would be presented with every temptation to improve the condition of their estates. Although these objects were of great and paramount importance, yet he was as fully aware as any noble Lord in that House could be that it would be impossible to effect the proposed alteration of the law without doing much that might be considered inconsistent with the rights of property. But he would ask, why should the interests of the community at large, as well as the interests of individuals, be disregarded for the sake of maintaining mere abstract rights, which, in the existing state of society in Ireland, led to great practical injustice? In the case of land purchased for the use of railways, no such hesitation was felt—no such injustice was made the subject of complaint. He admitted there was extreme difficulty in carrying into effect all the objects which the framers of the Bill proposed to accomplish. It was true that in the simple case of mortgagor and mortgagee nothing remained to be done but to sell the land, pay the mortgagee, and let the owner of the estate receive the surplus of the purchase-money. But such a condition of affairs formed the exception, not the rule; generally, the condition of an estate presented more complexity; hence extreme difficulty and embarrassment in dealing with the conflicting claims of the various parties interested. In framing the Bill every possible care had been taken to guard against what might be called the absence of parties; and in every possible case provision was made that every person interested in an estate should be entitled to notice respecting any steps that might be taken with a view to its sale; the conduct of the affair being placed in the hands of a Master in Chancery, assisted by a person who should be appointed for that purpose by the Attorney General; and, as he had already said, nothing would be done without full notice to every one concerned, the Master in Chancery and the person appointed by the Attorney General being bound to watch

1251
over the interests of all parties. He would repeat that every possible guard had been introduced into the Bill to render it next to impossible that the money paid into court should ever go into wrong hands. The noble and learned Lord went over other provisions of the Bill, and concluded by moving that the Bill be read a second time.
The EARL of RODENtendered the noble Lord his sincere thanks for the pains which he had taken in the framing of the present Bill, and for its introduction to the House. The property of Ireland would never be able to support the poor, unless the landed proprietors were put in a position to get rid of the incumbrances which pressed upon them, and in many instances eat up nearly the whole of their income. In his opinion, the present measure would give them an opportunity of becoming real owners instead of being nominally the proprietors of four, five, or ten thousand a year, without really being in possession of as many hundreds. He was acquainted with one noble Friend of his, whose poor-rate for four months amounted to 1,250 l., on an estate from which he did not receive 3,000 l. a year; and supposing that poor-rate was levied for a whole year, it would amount to 3,600 l., being 600 l. above its receipts. This was only one instance; there were many similar. He trusted such a measure would be passed as would enable persons to sell their estates, creating a class of real owners instead of men nominally possessing thousands a year while they were almost paupers. He trusted the exertions of his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant to give security and peace to the country would be assisted by spreading through the country a class of purchasers who would be able to perform the duties of proprietors. He thanked the noble and learned Lord for the attention he had given to the subject.
EARL FITZWILLIAMconcurred in the opinion, that a measure of this kind was very desirable; but at the same time he thought it right to guard the House, and, through the House, the country, against any exaggerated expectations of the benefit to be derived from this Bill. He could hardly say he did not approve of the measure; he thought it a right and proper one; nor had he ever been able to understand why it should be confined to Ireland, since in many respects it was very applicable to England. It had been proposed as a measure calculated to enable the land of Ire-
1252
land to support the poor; but it could only do so in those cases where it was brought into actual operation. He apprehended the number of those cases would be remarkably small; the operation of the Bill would also be very slow; first, because its provisions were to be carried out by the Court of Chancery, and because persons were long in coming to a conviction of the necessity of selling their estates. He feared, in the expectation of any great or immediate results from the measure, they would be disappointed. The noble Earl complained of the imperfect information afforded by the return just made of the "extent of incumbrances affecting landed property in Ireland," for the last ten years, from the office for the registration of deeds in Ireland.
LORD STANLEYagreed with the noble Earl that the return was very imperfect. With regard to the measure, he concurred with those who thought the evil to be remedied one of great and overwhelming magnitude in Ireland. The position of those landlords in Ireland who nominally had 10,000 l. or 12,000 l. a year, while they did not really possess more than so many hundreds, was very pernicious. In consequence of the inability of those proprietors to perform their duties, very erroneous ideas had been formed of their disposition to do it. He was not personally interested in the measure; but he anticipated considerable difficulties in carrying part of it into effect. The noble and learned Lord had doubtless paid great attention to the provisions by which the powers of the Bill were guarded; but he hoped some time would be allowed to elapse before they were called on to agree to the details. There would be great difficulty in dealing with estates that were divided. Incumbrances on Irish estates were often created without the consent of the owner; all these incumbrances were to be referred to the master; the expense was not thrown on the parties demanding the proceedings, but on the estate itself.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid a few words in explanation.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that one great object of the Bill was to cheapen and shorten the proceedings in the Court of Chancery. One of the sections gave a sort of Parliamentary title to purchasers of estates which would be a great advantage. Titles in Ireland were in a most deplorable condition. There was not there, as in England, a class of lawyers who de-

1253
voted themselves to the law of real property. Most able lawyers there were in Ireland, but no conveyancers, who looked specially into titles. Although he was a great friend to registration, in Ireland the registers were exceedingly bad, and, instead of clearing up titles and making them more certain, often involved them in inextricable confusion. This Bill would give titles that would be good against all the world, and the purchasers of estates under this Bill would have a title which nothing could affect. He hoped the Bill would meet with their Lordships' approbation, for he was satisfied that it would prove of great benefit to the part of the United Kingdom for which it was intended.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that so far from the principle of this Bill being objected to by the landed proprietors in Ireland, it met with their entire approval. But there was an inconvenience which would arise from the Bill in its present state which, he thought, required consideration, and might be remedied without violating the principle of the measure. It did not prevent a middleman who held land with a condition against subletting or dividing the land, putting a charge upon it for children, and upon his death the children became incumbrances, and the result might be that the middleman's interest would be split into parts, and the object of the Bill defeated. He was glad to learn that the object of the Bill was to cheapen and curtail proceedings in Chancery; but, unless something was done to reform the proceedings in the Master's office, sufficient relief would not be afforded.
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned.