Lords Sitting of 21 February 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a New Zealand Government.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Lord Provost and Council of Glasgow for the Repeal of the Bank Charter and Scottish Currency Acts.—From Derby, and several other places for the Imposition of the Severest Penalties on all Roman Catholic Priests who shall Denounce Persons from the Altar.—From Shipowners of Ramsgate and Glasgow, that no Alteration be made in the Navigation Laws until a Select Committee has inquired into their Policy.—From Parish Schoolmasters of Dumbarton, complaining of the Inadequacy of their Remuneration s and for Relief.—From Dublin and the Havant for the Removal of Jewish Disabilities.—From certain Orange Lodges in Ireland against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome, Bill.—From Warrington, for the Enactment of Sanitary Measures.—From Kil Saint Nicholas and Tauregan, complaining of the Insufficient Support afforded to certain Schools in Ireland, and for Relief.—From the Clogheen Board of Guardians, for Alteration of the Irish Poor Law; and for the more Profitable Employment of the Inmates of Workhouses.

DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS, COURT OF ROME, BILL.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, in moving that the Report on the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome, Bill be received, observed, that it had been understood that no discussion should take place on this stage of the Bill; but he proposed to introduce amendments in the Bill to meet some of the objections which had been urged against it, by defining the object of the measure to be to enable Her Majesty's Government to "establish and maintain diplomatic relations with the Court of Rome," and thus obviating the use of terms "Ambassador," "Minister," &c. He proposed this alteration now, in order that the Bill might be printed with the Amendment, which would afterwards come under their Lordships' consideration.
Amendment made.

POOR LAW (IRELAND).
EARL FITZWILLIAMrose to present a petition from the guardians of Clogheen Poor Law Union in Ireland, praying that the workhouses may be converted into houses of industry, in which employment may be provided for the destitute poor. It appeared from a letter in his possession that the poor in a certain union in Ireland were sustained on the amount of 7d. per week per head, or 1d. per day; and he believed that the same state of things existed

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in other unions. Their Lordships had legislated against crime in Ireland, and, judging from the proceedings under the special commission, it would appear that their legislation for the repression of crime had not been ineffective. But while they punished crime in Ireland, let them not he inattentive to the sufferings of those who were content to receive and subsist upon so small an amount as he had mentioned. Though those persons might be content with it, they could not possibly live on it; and the allowance of 1d. per day per person seemed almost killing the population by slow degrees. He wished the Government and the Parliament to consider whether they could go on maintaining the people on so small a pittance. He wished them to consider whether there were not other modes of maintaining those who were cast on the public resources, by means of large public works; and whether the numbers of the people might not be diminished with advantage to themselves by the adoption of some well-regulated system of emigration. As a remedy for the existing evil, the employment of the people by the landed proprietors of Ireland was pointed to; but he was afraid that if the whole burden were cast upon them the task would never be accomplished. The amount of money granted last year by way of loan to the landed proprietors was 1,500,000 l.; but the sum sanctioned to be advanced by the proper authorities in Ireland did not exceed 1,000,000 l. for 20,000,000 acres; or, in other words, 1s. per acre over the whole extent of Ireland. If Ireland were to be improved by such means, the improvement would not proceed very rapidly. Instead of seeing the people starved upon 1d. per day, it was his desire to see them maintained on 1s. a day on works beneficial to the country; and he should also like to see established, not a capricious, but a well-regulated system of emigration. In the course of various debates it had been maintained that the income-tax ought to be extended to Ireland. Surely the statement set forth in the petition to which he had referred, if they made anything clear, rendered this most evident, that the poor-rates so severely pressed upon every class in that country that the levy of an income-tax would be wholly out of the question.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas ready to admit that the poor-law, as it affected Ireland, did require amendment. Unfortunately, owing to the late famine, great expenditure in Ireland for the relief
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of the poor became unavoidable. It was a severe visitation, and entailed upon the country a burden almost intolerable, but one from which it was impossible to escape in the case of a country in which the population were dependent for subsistence upon the potato. The evils of famine being superadded, to that condition of society, necessarily plunged Ireland into a state of the deepest distress; and even during the last month the Irish poor-rates amounted to 190,000 l. Evils so deep-rooted and extensive as those which prevailed could not be remedied by any single measure, at the same time that much good might accrue from emigration if prudently and carefully conducted; but all their Lordships must be aware of the difficulties by which emigration was attended. By measures not long in operation a certain number of children were provided for, and, to some extent, a certain number of ablebodied men were kept in employment on the public works; with respect to the latter, it must be obvious that, in the present state of the national resources, public works could not be carried on upon the scale that they had heretofore been maintained. It appeared to him that the most effectual method by which relief could be given to the people of Ireland would be to enlarge the means, or rather to promote the practice of giving them employment derived from the individual proprietors of the soil. It would be much better that the working classes in Ireland, as in other countries, should be under individual rather than under public supervision. Applications had already been made for loans for the purpose of giving employment to the people; those applications amounted to 2,000,000 l., and a considerable portion of them had been sanctioned. There was scarcely a county in which works of that description were not now proceeding. With respect to the manner in which Ireland had been divided for the purpose of being assessed to the poor-rates, he was perfectly ready to admit that it had been attended with more or less of inequality. Doubtless some of those evils might be corrected, and even a new division might be established; but it must be obvious to every one that a new division would take up such a length of time that there would be no hope of bringing the poor-law into operation during the present year. The electoral divisions were in the first instance adopted as the best way of meeting the case; at least, the best way which then offered itself. He was far from saying

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that such a plan as that was perfect; cases showing its imperfection had arisen, and must often arise; but it was too much to expect that Government should at once be able to apply a perfect remedy. A redistribution of the divisions had certainly been suggested, and the advisers of the Crown had the matter under consideration; they had also the mode of appointing poor-law guardians under consideration; and he felt bound to say that the office seemed so odious, and its duties were so painful, that he apprehended paid guardians must be appointed, though, of course, the law ought to be locally administered; the subject was, however, of much too great importance to be discussed upon the mere presentation of a petition.
LORD CAREWthought it a great objection to the present system, that under it those proprietors who employed a large amount of labour were placed in the same position as those who employed none. He suggested the appointment of stipendiary guardians, to see that the law was properly administered, like stipendiary magistrates, leaving the elected guardians the same powers they possessed at present.
LORD MONTEAGLEheard with satisfaction from the noble Marquess, that the Government was disposed to revise the existing system of electoral divisions; but, as that system was adopted deliberately by Parliament, and again affirmed last year, he thought the revision ought to be effected by an alteration of the law, not by the act of the paid guardians. If these guardians were to be the depositaries of this power, he was convinced it would raise the greatest objections to the appointment of such officers. He wished to see the poor-law fairly tried; but if the Act was to be set aside, and a new system of taxation introduced not contemplated by Parliament, he should use every exertion in his power to resist the appointment of paid guardians. Parliament never intended to give them this discretionary power; if a change were required, let it be done by a Bill that might be regularly discussed. With respect to the employment of the poor in workhouses, he objected to employing adults in unprofitable manufactures; but such work might be given to children as part of their education. He understood there was an intention to send out some of the children from the workhouses of Ireland as colonists; but, unless they had been trained to some useful occupation, he feared they would make very bad colonists.
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In the Poor Law Act were two clauses, one referring to the employment of children in workhouses, the other to giving them instruction in agriculture. The last subject was of extreme importance; if with the system of education given in the national schools agricultural instruction had been combined, he could not help thinking that there would have been a very great mitigation in the calamities of last year in that country.
On the reappointment of the Committee on Colonisation from Ireland being moved,
EARL GREYsaid, he would make one remark in reference to an observation made by his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle). He deprecated, as his noble Friend seemed to intimate, any intention of clearing the workhouses of Ireland of their young population for the purpose of colonisation. The colonisation which Her Majesty's Government had in view was intended to be strictly confined to those workhouses in which it should be ascertained that children of fifteen years of age and upwards had been trained up in habits of useful industry. These children would be sent out under proper care, and all due attention should be paid them both on the voyage and on their arrival. There were a great number of children so circumstanced, to whom the change would be for the better in every respect, and attended with immense advantages. It was intended that a portion of the funds now in the hands of the Commissioners should be appropriated to such emigration to South Australia in particular, where the children would be properly taken care of, and where they would, the females especially, be of great benefit to that rising colony, and in all probability turn out most useful colonists.
House adjourned.