Lords Sitting of 22 August 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Sugar Duties; Controverted Elections; Wolverhampton Curacy.
2a Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Poor Removal (No. 2); Parochial Debt and Audit.
Reported.—Stock in Trade Exemption; Out Pensioners.
3a and passed:—Assessionable Manors Commissioners (Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Steam Navigation; Parliamentary Electors; Poor Law Union District Schools; Militia Pay; Tithe Rent Charge, &c. (No. 2) (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Clergymen of the Parish of Manchester, against the Present Ecclesiastical Law.—From the Baptist Congregations of Burton-on-Trent, for the Discontinuance of Grants of Money for the Temple of Juggernaut, &c.—From the Electors and Inhabitants of Bewdley, against the Passing of the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill.

THE SLAVE TRADE.
LORD DENMANrose to move—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give Directions for the Enforcement of all Treaties with Foreign Powers for the Extinction of the Slave Trade on the Coast of Africa; and for the Prosecution of all British Subjects, either at home or abroad, directly or indirectly concerned in violating the Laws against that Crime; and that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into Her serious Consideration the Expediency of concerting Measures with her Allies for declaring Slave-trading Piracy, with a Punishment less severe than that now incurred according to the Laws of Nations for that Crime."
The noble and learned Lord said, that he must ask their Lordships to bear in remembrance this proposition, that the slave trade was one of the worst of human crimes; the most daring violation of the laws of God and man—prompted by the basest motives, productive of the greatest amount of suffering to its victims, and that it most effectually prevented the progress in civilisation and happiness of a very large portion of the human race. It had, therefore, been declared to be a crime
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of the deepest dye, the perpetration of which the negro might lawfully resist, and in which resistance all others were perfectly justified in aiding him. This proposition it was necessary to repeat, because there existed a strong interest to make men forget it; but quite unnecessary to prove by any arguments, for he might rest entirely on the authority of all the civilised world, of France, of America, and of England. On a late occasion the House of Commons, in full accordance with this principle, determined to consider the best means of providing for the extinction of the slave trade, and appointed a Committee with that object; taking it for granted that the trade was to be extinguished, and that the only question was, what were the most effectual means of accomplishing its extinction? He must own, however, that there was something ominous to him in the recommendations which were made by the hon. Gentleman who moved the appointment of that Committee, and who afterwards, as Chairman, presided over the inquiry; for a preconceived opinion had been most distinctly stated by the hon. Gentleman on one of the most important subjects to which it could be directed. The opinion was, that all attempts at suppressing the slave trade on the coast of Africa had entirely failed; and not only so, but had occasioned a great aggravation of the evil. The noble and learned Lord here referred to Hansard* for the opinion of Mr. Hutt, who said, "If asked what he would do with the slave trade, he would say, without reserve, 'Leave the slave trade to itself;'"—and he assumed, before entering on his functions, that the squadron ought to be recalled from the coast of Africa. He had even seen that hon. Gentleman's claim to public confidence rested on this very opinion, said to have been long entertained by him. It was hardly to be expected, that under such circumstances the subject would undergo a perfectly fair and impartial investigation. Two propositions were put forward as decidedly conclusive against the continued maintenance of our squadron on the coast of Africa. One of these was, that the means employed for the extinction of the traffic had proved ineffectual; but upon that the Committee did not come to any resolution. They were unable to make up their minds with regard to it; and notwithstanding the preconceived opinion
*Third Series, Vol. xcvi. p. 1100.

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of the hon. Chairman, and notwithstanding the course of examination of witnesses which was adopted, and which showed that that opinion was shared by many Members of the Committee, still they had not the courage either to come to a resolution of that kind in Committee, or in the House of Commons, to refuse to vote the amount which was necessary for the continuance of the squadron. The second proposition was, that our attempts to put it down had done more harm than good, and had had the effect of greatly aggravating the horrors of the trade. He (Lord Denman) would undertake to disprove both these assertions. Their Lordships and the country were compelled to resort to the report of the evidence taken by the Committee for the purpose of obtaining facts. He (Lord Denman) thought it of the highest importance at the present moment, that the mind of the country should not be perverted on this vital subject; that it should not forget all its former aspirations and convictions, and sink into a state of apathy and indifference, or rather give its approval to the slave trade—a result which would be alike disgraceful to the country, and injurious to the interests of humanity. Yet no one could be blind to the great efforts that had long been making in the public journals and other publications, to bring the public mind into that state of torpor which would tolerate the enormities of the slave trade; and he was anxious to appeal to the great power of the press to lend its talents and influence to a comprehensive view of the whole question, instead of creating erroneous impressions by partial statements and fallacious extracts. He believed that the slave trade could be suppressed by such means as we had hitherto employed; and, what was more, that it had to a great extent been suppressed on various parts of the coast of Africa. True, it was not extinguished; but it had been discouraged and depressed in particular quarters, and had not been able to lift up its head with the same effrontery as it had done before those measures were resorted to. The infamous traffic had been suppressed in the river Quorra, in the Bonny, and also in the Gambia; and he found that, instead of the 12,000 negroes who were formerly exported to Cuba every year, the number had dwindled down to 1,000 in the year 1845. The exportation to Brazil was also materially and gradually reduced. But at
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the very lowest point of its depression an unfortunate circumstance had tended greatly to increase the trade. The opinion of a learned officer of the Crown had been somewhat unguardedly expressed, which appeared to throw doubt on the legality of the measures adopted. The Foreign Office have communicated that opinion to the Admiralty; and it was filched by some ally of the slavetraders, and despatched to the Coast. A report was circulated in Africa, that a revolution had taken place in England; that Lord Palmerston had been sacrificed; and that the House of Commons intended to revive the slave trade. The discouragement to the officers employed may be easily conceived, from the apprehension that their vigorous measures were not sanctioned by their Government, and that they might be made liable to heavy damages for the faithful discharge of the duty entrusted to them. But, had the blow which those officers struck been followed up, he believed the trade would have been annihilated ere this. It had been admitted that, in 1843, the slave trade was considered to be a losing concern in Brazil; and the evidence of Mr. Cliffe, a good authority on the subject, and who was examined before the Committee, showed that it was abandoned by many persons in despair, because they thought the Government of England was sincere in the resolution to put it down; but when they saw reason to doubt the sincerity of the Government of England, then it was that the slave trade revived with accumulated vigour. He would now direct their Lordships' attention to the statement that the squadron had tended to aggravate rather than to diminish the horrors of the trade. If it could be made out clearly that all our efforts had been futile and injurious, the argument for abandoning them must prevail; but he thought the proof had utterly failed in that respect. Why was this imputed? Because there was much greater hurry and expedition in embarking and landing the slaves, from fear of interruption by the cruisers, and less care for the comforts of the slaves; because small swift vessels were employed, and because they were considerably overcrowded. But this was a string of fallacies from beginning to end; for the use of those swift vessels would ensure a shorter passage; whilst the overcrowding of the vessel was calculated to retard its speed, and thus in fact to incur

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the very danger—the danger of falling into the hands of British cruisers—which they desired to avoid. Another reason, too, was assigned for this overcrowding; and it was because so many died on the passage in consequence of the ill-treatment they received. Thus it was argued, that the cause of their putting so many on board, was, that so many died on the passage; and that the cause of so many dying on the passage, was the overcrowding! The political economists said, "Leave the slave-traders to themselves; they will not destroy their own slaves; men will not destroy their own pigs and sheep;" but negroes were not cattle—they would not tamely submit to the treatment of slaves, and the slave-trader had to contend with their natural feelings as men, and provide by any means to put down a resistance which was always probable. The Committee of the House of Commons had had before them a person who had acknowledged himself to have been a slavetrader—and this person the Committee had consulted about the best means of putting down the slave trade! Why, the bare idea of asking a slavetrader for his opinion, with reference to the means employed for the suppression of the slave trade, seemed to be one of the most preposterous he ever heard of. What! consult the wolf about the best means of preserving the sheep? The answer came of course. "Remove the dogs." And this person said, "Oh! I am quite hopeless of the efforts of the squadron"—and, of course, he deprecated the employment of it any longer. Hopeless! this man's hope must be not for the squadron's success, but its defeat; and when he so earnestly recommends its recall, he bears the best testimony he is capable of affording to its efficacy. He is an accomplice, and naturally wishes the crime to go on and prosper without molestation. Conceive one of a gang of burglars consulted by the police on the best means of extinguishing burglary! And conceive this advice to be given, "Leave it to itself, I am hopeless of effecting its extinction, you will only cause resistance and bloodshed by making the attempt, and aggravate the horrors you detest." He felt the necessity of now warning the public mind against the false views which were gaining ground unperceived upon this subject, and which threatened to replace the slave trade in the position in which it was practised in this country previous to the year 1788. He was fearful of that extension of the trade which would
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follow the withdrawal of the cruisers from the coast of Africa; because, if they were withdrawn, the Coast would, in the language of the gallant officer now commanding them, become "one great nest of pirates and robbers." He denied that the cruisers were responsible for the crimes of the slavers, any more than the policeman for the consequences of a criminal resistance to his interference for the prevention of rapine and murder. He was aware that some of the officers employed on that station had expressed an opinion unfavourable to the continuance of the squadron, and believed that with many the service was unpopular. He might refer to the evidence of Captain Maunsell, whom he knew to be a gallant officer, a candid and honourable man, but a gentleman who went out to suppress the slave trade with the conviction that the means used would not be sufficient for the purpose; who set about an arduous task, requiring all the energy of hope, half disqualified by despair. He actually read to the Committee a passage from his memorandum book, copied into it by himself before he left England, embodying that sentiment. Surely it may be suggested without any disrespect either to the Admiralty or the officer, that men entertaining such an opinion should not be selected for the service. He was sorry to say, that from looking over this evidence, he had not the slightest doubt that English capital was largely engaged in the slave trade—that the property of many persons in England was engaged in it; and that by joint-stock companies in Brazil, comprising many English shareholders, large profits were drawn from it. It might be difficult to get at such persons; but was this country to connive at such practices after passing enactment after enactment for three quarters of a century for the purpose of putting it down? Now, if they put an end to their squadron, they would be throwing the slave trade open to the entire world; and the English, from their capital and enterprise, in commerce of every kind, would soon become amongst the largest dealers in this traffic. He had to offer his humble apology for so imperfectly treating this the greatest cause that ever was pleaded before a human audience; and he hoped he would be excused for addressing them in his desire to put an end to the evil. He hoped that the people of England would not abandon the course they had recently adopted, and for which he must say he thought they had taken too much credit to themselves. On the contrary,

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it was a lasting shame to a Christian country to have clung so long to the disgraceful practice of slavetrading, in the face of the clearest conviction, and to have so tardily emancipated their own slaves. He strenuously exhorted them by persevering in their present righteous exertions to make atonement for those offences, not to relapse into them; and with these views he proposed an address to cause British subjects who may offend either at home or abroad, to be brought to justice; to induce the enforcement of those treaties by which other nations are bound to co-operate with us in suppressing the traffic; and to induce them to declare slavetrading piracy by their municipal laws. All the witnesses agree that some punishment of those actually carrying on the trade would greatly deter from it; but in the present state of the world, it was scarcely to be expected that the power of summary execution of the pirate by hanging from the yard arm, should be conceded to foreigners. To consign them to the hands of justice, for a less severe punishment—transportation and compulsory labour at Bermuda or elsewhere—would probably be more effectual. The noble and learned Lord concluded by moving the address.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that both that House and the public must feel thankful to his noble and learned Friend for having attracted attention to this important subject. It was not from any disrespect to his noble and learned Friend that on this occasion he should most reluctantly take the course of moving the previous question. His reason for so doing was, that the report of the Committee had only been placed that day on their table, and there had been no time for their Lordships to consider it. It might, perhaps, be inferred—although not so purposed by his noble Friend—from the terms of the address which had just been proposed, and also from some circumstances to which his noble and learned Friend had adverted in his speech, that he had some intention of implying the existence, which there certainly was not, of an unwillingness on the part of the Government to carry into effect the provisions that had been made for suppressing the slave trade, and that the Government were not at this moment, as they however undoubtedly were, giving to those provisions their fullest effect, and also that there might be some appearance of an inclination of prejudging in that House the result of the inquiry before the Committee of the House
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of Commons. He (the Marquess of Lansdowne) wished their Lordships to have the amplest opportunity of forming their opinion upon the evidence now laid upon the table. That the Government had not abated one jot of their determination in regard to the suppression of the slave trade, might be shown by a reference to the recorded words of his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who in word and act had been the consistent and constant supporter of the measures for that suppression, and whose direction of that particular department was a sufficient proof that no means had been left untried to give full effect to the numerous treaties on the subject of the slave trade. With respect to the point adverted to by his noble and learned Friend, that notwithstanding the legislation upon the subject persons belonging to this country had been found criminal enough to have engaged, directly or indirectly, in this traffic, the matter had not escaped the notice of his noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs; in proof of which he referred his noble and learned Friend to the despatch addressed by the noble Secretary to certain consuls, pointing out the law under which British subjects were liable to punishment. Upon the last point adverted to in the address, he entirely agreed with his noble Friend, namely, the expediency of concerting measures for declaring the slave trade piracy, with a mitigation of the punishment now incurred for that crime. It was with the greatest regret that he moved the previous question; but if he could suppose that in other places opinions had been entertained that this was a traffic that should be let alone, then he should come to the assistance of his noble and learned Friend, and pronounce the strongest condemnation of any such view. He trusted the time would never come when any countenance would be given, directly or indirectly, to the opinion that we had the intention, or he would say, morally or religiously speaking, the right, to abandon our endeavours to put an end to that trade which was the curse of the world, as it had been a stigma on our own national character. The noble Marquess concluded by moving the previous question.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that there was not the least difference of opinion on this subject in their Lordships' House. Their Lordships would be called upon to decide upon a theory which involved a most trumpery and most ignorant misap-

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plication of the principles of free trade—principles which had no more to do with the question of offences and crimes—with robbery, piracy, and murder, than they had to do with any other question the least applicable of which the human mind could form a conception. His noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice had discharged his duty with his wonted ability and firmness. His speech was one of singular effect. It had satisfied all but one; it had fulfilled all other men's expectations except only the speaker himself. It had for ever set at rest the question of fact; on this it was a complete demonstration, and his noble and learned Friend had completely refuted the two propositions that the slave trade had increased in despite of all our efforts to suppress it, and that our endeavours had aggravated, instead of alleviating, the evils attending on it. It was impossible for any one to read the evidence contained in that blue book without feeling convinced that the witnesses who appeared before the Committee had been called and marshalled and examined for the purpose of supporting a foregone conclusion, because it was a notorious fact that the friends of the inquiry had repeatedly declared that the object they had in view was to set the slave trade free—preposterously to introduce the principles of free trade, forsooth! into crime. Unfortunately they had so got into the habit of talking of the slave trade and slave-dealing, that the crime escaped the reprobation which would have been excited against it in the minds of all, had it been, as it ought to have been, called man-stealing—and had the dealers in that horrid traffic been called man-stealers. Had it been spoken of in that plain and honest manner they never would have seen such a state of things suffered to exist as had astonished them all a short time ago—they never would have seen a Committee of one House of the Legislature suffering a man to come before them and say he was a felon in his own country—that he had been guilty of murder and rapine and piracy—nay, of every crime which the law contemplated, because they were all comprised in the detestable crime of carrying on the slave trade—avowing himself that it was a lucrative trade, and that he had made a fortune by it, without that Committee sending him to his trial, and afterwards to the hulks—they would never have seen such a man made the cherished, the pet, the darling witness of those promoting the objects for which the Committee was appointed.
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Yet so it was, a man avowedly a felon, avowedly one who had made his fortune in the accursed man-traffic, was called before a Committee, he would not say of the House of Commons, but of one House of the Legislature. Care was taken to show that he was highly in favour with some of the parties there, an anxiety shown to wipe away some of the antecedent stains affixed upon his character, and an appeal was made to him as to the credibility of a gallant captain in Her Majesty's service. It was no light matter that a felon, a felon avowedly and coming voluntarily in that character before the Committee—it was no light matter that such a man should be called into any court, either of justice or of Parliament, to prejudice or stigmatise any one, far less one holding Her Majesty's Commission. He was not opposed to inquiry on the subject. He had long been of opinion that a searching inquiry before a Committee of that House into the whole question—a searching and rigid inquiry into the various forms which the mantraffic, which the detestable crime assumed, would have a most beneficial effect. It would show one of two things—it would either show that the stigma which had been thrown upon the character of British merchants was wholly and entirely unfounded, or it would prove—and he feared that would be the result—it would prove that the suspicions which were entertained were well founded, and that the criminals were to be found within the bosom of the great mercantile communities of London, Bristol, Liverpool, and Manchester, who ought to be dragged out into the light, and held up in their true colours to the wondering and indignant gaze of their fellow-countrymen. He would recommend the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his Motion, and to let the declaration on the part of the Government, which had been made by the noble Marquess, go forth to the world unfettered.
After a few words from LORD DENMAN in reply, the previous question was put, Whether the said Question shall be now put?—Resolved in the Negative.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS BILL.
LORD BEAUMONTmoved that this Bill, the object of which was to regulate the times of payment of rates and taxes by Parliamentary electors, be read a third time; after which it was his intention to propose an amendment as to the period up to which the rates should be paid, to entitle

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parties to be on the list of voters. At present the Bill provided that all rates and taxes payable previously to the 11th day of October in the preceding year, should be paid on or before the 20th of July next following. This he had ascertained would interfere with the arrangements made by parishes for the collection of the rates, which were usually collected half-yearly; he, therefore, proposed that instead of those rates which should become payable previously to the 11th of October in the preceding year being required to be paid, all rates payable previously to the 5th of January in the same year should be actually paid before a person could be a registered voter. He hoped by this alteration to obviate the objection which was urged against the Bill on the second reading.
LORD REDESDALEapproved of the proposed Amendment. It was in accordance with one he himself suggested; but at the same time he objected to their Lordships being called upon to pass a measure of this importance at so late a period of the Session, especially as the second reading was carried only by a majority of four. It involved an alteration of the principle of the Reform Act, which it was admitted on all hands, ought not to be lightly touched. He moved, therefore, that the Bill be read a third time on that day six months.
Their Lordships divided on question, that the word "now" stand part of the Motion:—Contents 31; Not Contents 28: Majority 3.
Bill read 3a. Amendment made. Bill passed.

CRIMINAL LAW ADMINISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLmoved to agree to the Commons' Amendments in the Criminal Law Administration Amendment Bill.
LORD DENMANsaid, he had the greatest respect for the House of Commons; but he thought it most outrageous that that which their Lordships had, after full consideration, already rejected, should be again imposed upon them. The Judges had not time to consider the numerous cases which they were at present compelled to decide, and he strongly objected to any such additions to their labours as this measure proposed.
LORD CAMPBELLobserved, that the House of Commons had had this subject before them during the whole of the present
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Session. That House sent to their Lordships for a copy of their report; they had had the evidence of Lord Lyndhurst, of Lord Denman himself, and of five Judges; they had taken much time to consider the case, and they had reached a deliberate conclusion, which most certainly was entitled to every degree of respect.
LORD DENMANsaid, that the Amendments under consideration involved a question of the most serious importance. The Bill, as it was drawn up, gave to every criminal who did not like his conviction the power to move to set it aside in a court of law. This was a principle which he did not think had as yet been fully discussed.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.