Lords Sitting of 4 August 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Windsor Castle, and Town Approaches; Highway Rates; Loan Societies; Trustees Relief.
2a Salmon Breed Preservation: Public Works (Ireland) (No. 2).
Reported.—Edinburgh Police (Amendment and Consolidation of Acts, and Police and Sanitary Improvement); Regent's Quadrant Colonnade.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Shipowners, and Others, of Montrose, Middiesborough, and other Places, against any Alteration of the Navigation Laws.—From Great Baddow, Taunton, and several other Places, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays.—From Places in the County of Lancaster, for the Adoption of a System of Secular Education.—From the Borough of Penryn, against such Provisions of the Public Health Bill as Es-
1126
tablish a General Board of Government.—From numerous Tradesmen and Shopkeepers, praying that the Palace Court at Westminster may be Closed, as regards the Recovery of Debts and Demands under Twenty Pounds.—From Teachers, and Others, within the Police Boundaries of the City of Edinburgh, taking notice of the Provisions of the Edinburgh Police Bill, praying that all Buildings solely Occupied for the Purposes of Science or Education may continue to be Exempt from Taxation.—From Little Bowden, and Market Harborough, in favour of the Charity Trust Regulation Bill,

ALLEGED INTERFERENCE IN THE AFFAIRS OF SICILY.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to put a question to his noble Friend opposite (the Lord President of the Council), of which, if it were deemed necessary, he would now merely give notice it was, whether it was true, as he was informed upon very high authority, that Mr. Fagan, an attaché to the English Minister at Naples, had, upon the 24th July last proceeded, in Her Majesty's ship Porcupine to Palermo, and there thought proper, in breach of his instructions—as he, in charity, was bound to believe—to make a communication to the Provisional Government of Sicily, threatening them with the withdrawal of the countenance, support, and protection of England, if they did not, within twenty-four hours, proceed to choose the Duke of Genoa as King. If he (Lord Brougham) had not received this information from the highest official authority connected with Sicily—and he had only seen that noble person an hour or two before he entered the House—if, indeed, he had not received it first in writing, and secondly by word of mouth, from that distinguished individual—he should have felt unable to believe it possible. Surely Mr. Fagan must know that if there was any one thing more intolerable than another, it was interference of a foreign Government with the dominions of an Ally. Sicily stood towards Naples in the same relation as Ireland towards Great Britain, except that Ireland had no Parliament, whilst Sicily had; but if this thing were once allowed, what was to prevent the King of Naples, if he had the power, from sending a similar communication to the rebels in Ireland? He believed, as he said, it was quite impossible Mr. Fagan could have made this communication, though he had received an assurance of it in writing; and he believed it still more impossible that, if he had made it, he had acted under instructions to that effect. But if Mr. Fagan had made it, then he expected to hear that he had been recalled.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid,

1127
that as his noble and learned Friend had not given him notice of his intention to put this question, he was not prepared to say what Mr. Fagan might have done. This, however, he could at once say, that neither Mr. Fagan, nor any other person in Her Majesty's service, had any instructions to make any communication to the Provisional Government at Palermo of the nature referred to.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE moved that this Bill he now read 2a.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that they had it stated that in consequence of the financial difficulties of the country, it was impossible to give effect to the Militia Acts, as the 150,000 l which Government proposed at the commencement of the Session to devote to that object could not be spared; and yet they were now asked to devote the large sum that was to be repaid on account of advances in Ireland for the next seven years to the purposes of new loans in that country. He alluded to this fact in order to show that it was no unimportant boon that they were about conferring on Ireland, and not with the view of offering any objection whatever to the principle of the Bill. On the contrary, he was disposed to carry out, as far as it could be carried, the principle on which the Bill had been framed, namely, that the Imperial Treasury would forego, for imperial purposes, its claim to the repayments of all money due by Ireland; that all these moneys should be still collected, but that they should be devoted as they were received to Irish purposes alone. He was perfectly ready to acquiesce in that principle, because it tended to show that there was nothing which Parliament could do to promote the welfare of Ireland that they were not ready to undertake. But he wished it to be understood what the amount of the boon was, which, in this instance, they were about to confer on that country. He believed that ultimately the sum to be devoted to purely Irish purposes, if the principle of this Bill were carried out fully, would be no less than four and a half millions of money. Now, that being the case, and the principle being established that these sums as they were received were to be appropriated only to Irish purposes, they should consider whether the objects provided for by this Bill were the most important objects which the Parliament of this country could have in
1128
view, having at its disposal a sum of four millions and a half of money to be appropriated for the benefit of Ireland. He was of opinion that, however important it was to improve the soil of Ireland, that was not the most desirable object which could be effected with this sum, because he was convinced that, unless they improved the social state of Ireland, everything that they could do for the improvement of the land would be of no avail. The social state of Ireland was a scandal to this country, and a scandal to the age. There was no country in the world, pretending to civilisation, of which the social state was so bad as Ireland. Now, from what circumstance did that defect in the social state of Ireland arise? But on this subject he ought not to speak of all Ireland as coming under the same description. He recollected well hearing the late Lord Liverpool say, "I do not understand what noble Lords mean when they talk of Ireland as being all one; there are two Irelands—North Ireland and South Ireland—Protestant Ireland and Catholic Ireland; and the remarks adapted to the one are wholly un-suited to the circumstances of the other." That was one source of all the difficulties which they had to meet in legislating for that country. But it was not in the Protestant part of Ireland that the disorganisation in her social state existed. There was nothing in the character of the Roman Catholic religion that ought of necessity to lead to the disorganisation of the social state which was found in Ireland. Some of the very best and most prosperous parts of Europe were places in which that religion existed in all its purity. Neither was it because Ireland was a conquered country, nor because large portions of the lands of that country had been confiscated, nor because there had existed in that country for many years laws of persecution. There was hardly a country in Europe or in Asia that had not passed through the same circumstances—that had not been conquered by aliens, and had not been confiscated and subjected to vindictive legislation. But in all other instances the vanquished and the victor were found living in the same community, under the same laws, and mingling in the same social state. But having removed the Roman Catholic disabilities in Ireland—disabilities of which the Young Ireland party had never seen the effect, and of which they knew nothing—what, he would ask, was there still in the state of Ireland

1129
—for there must be something peculiar—which produced this anomaly in its social state, such as never did exist, or never could exist, in any other country in the world? It was, that the Church of the great majority of the people was repudiated by the State. Where would he seek for a remedy for this evil? Not where some had suggested, by attacking the property of the Protestant Church, for the purpose of endowing the Roman Catholic Church. Nothing could be worse in point of justice or in point of honesty than such a course would be. The establishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland rested on the Union, which should be considered sacred; and, besides, such an Act would alicnate the Protestants of Ireland, who were the best friends of British connexion, and who might be called the natural garrison of the country. But he would do it by making the Roman Catholic clergy stipendiaries of the State, and at the same time subjecting them to the right of patronage on the part of the Crown of this country. He did not see his way satisfactorily to the administration of Roman Catholic patronage by a purely Protestant Government. But they sought merely for peace, and did not wish to yield to the prejudices of any party, but desired to do justice by all. He would now call their Lordships' attention to the large fund which they had at their disposal to be appropriated solely to the purposes of Ireland, and he thought that no one could reasonably object to devoting it to the support of the Roman Catholic clergy, for the building of glebe-houses and attaching them to the glebe. He did not see upon what ground the most conscientious person could object to such a proposition. The only effect of it would be to place the Roman Catholic priest in a station of respectability and independence, and to so place him for purposes of good over the people to whom he was a pastor. These were no new opinions in his (the Earl of Ellenborough's) mind; he was no late convert to them; he had formed them at a very early period of his public life, when the late Lord Castlereagh was in power, and they were in consonance with those held by that noble Lord, for Lord Castlereagh, when carrying the Union between the two countries, never contemplated the removal of Catholic disabilities, which was to have accompanied it, without connecting the measure in his own mind with the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy; but
1130
he was deceived in the expectation that he would live to see the project carried into effect. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had thought it his duty upon that occasion to state his opinion. He considered that the time of difficulty was the time for those whom the constitution entrusted with the duty of legislation to come forward and state their opinions, and not leave them in any doubt. He thought they were bound to do so at the risk even of their popularity, and that the man who hesitated, at a time like the present, to do his duty boldly and fearlessly, by stating his opinions to their Lordships, would be undeserving of the station which he held.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, the noble Earl who had just sat down, would deserve the thanks of the friends of liberal measures for the courage as well as the wisdom of his statement made at the present moment to the House. He (Lord Mont-eagle) approved highly of the sentiment expressed by the noble Earl. He especially agreed cordially with him in his observation that the Roman Catholic clergy should not be endowed out of the funds of the Protestant Church. For if there were any mode by which the matter could be made more distasteful than another to the public, and productive of evil rather than of good, it was a proposition which had sometimes boon popularly put forward that the Protestant Church should afford the funds from which the Roman Catholic clergy should be pensioned. He (Lord Monteagle) also believed, that if they wished to make the proposition distasteful to the Catholic clergy themselves, they would best do so by a proposition which should make it appear as though they wished to place them in a position that they would be subservient to the Government of the day. His noble Friend had wisely rejected such a plan. The great danger which he (Lord Monteagle) apprehended, arose from the condition of dependence of the Roman Catholic clergy. They could not at present act independently. At this side of the water people thought that the priests directed the Irish people; but he could tell them that the people, on the contrary, impelled the priests, and the priests did not act willingly in nine cases out of ten when they took prominent positions in political movements. He, of course, admitted there were exceptions. But in many cases it was under the threat of absolute starvation, which he had actually known to have been

1131
held out to them, that the priests had been obliged to come forward and become agitators. The Irish priest was not in a situation in which any clergyman should be placed. Their Lordships, whatever might be their political or religious sentiments, had all a deep interest in the moral and religious instruction of the Irish people; and it should be the great object to secure them such advantages. Those confederate leaders and members of clubs were persons who had thrown off the trammels of their religion; and the priest knew at once that the persons whom he missed from their religious duties were those who were connected with illegal confederacies. He begged of those who said that their Protestantism prevented them from entertaining the question, to recollect that George the Third, whose Protestantism had never been called in question, opposed as he was to the concession of the Catholic claims, was favourable to the endowment of the Catholic clergy. They might depend upon it that the discussion which the subject would now receive would lead to the general conviction that the great boon suggested by the noble Earl ought to be granted. One word as to the funds from which the endowment could be effected. Should all other sources be found objectionable, no better subject for taxation of Ireland itself was ever submitted to that country, than the raising of a fund for such a purpose. He would say no more upon the subject at present; but in the further progress of the Bill, it would be necessary for him to ask two questions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the food of the people of Ireland.
LORD STANLEYcould not but express some regret that his noble Friend the noble Earl who sat behind him should have thought it necessary or expedient to take that opportunity of entering upon the discussion of a speculative view of a most extensive and important question, which was not brought regularly under the notice of the House by the measure then before their Lordships. He said "a speculative view," because he did not understand that his noble Friend suggested, nor that he signified his intention of being about to suggest, any direct proposition to the House. Nor, indeed, was it competent to the House to divert to the purposes to which it was proposed to divert the sum of money with reference to which the present Bill had been introduced, even if no difference of opinion on the subject should pre-
1132
vail among their Lordships. But he apprehended that the Bill was brought in for the purpose of legalising the re-issue to Ireland of certain sums which had been repaid out of certain other sums formerly advanced to Ireland out of the Imperial Treasury, and that the re-issue was to be for the same purposes as those for which the grants had been originally sanctioned by Parliament. He apprehended the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde), in making the remarks which he had made upon proposing the second reading of the Bill, had distinctly specified such to be the object; and had stated that, partly from neglect, and partly from circumstances over which the Government had no control, many of the works commenced by means of the former loan, which, if completed, would have been of great national importance and advantage, had been left unfinished; and unless more money were advanced, it would be not only impossible to complete them, but those parts of the country in which they were, could not even be restored to the state in which they were before they were commenced. Now, that was the plain and legitimate purpose of the Bill, and it was one which should not have led to any discussion such as had been raised. That was the legitimate and natural application of the capital. But undoubtedly the circumstances connected with the proposition of his noble Friend would be exceedingly different. He (Lord Stanley) certainly should decline answering to the call of his noble Friend, and discussing upon the subject of a Bill for finishing the unfinished works of Ireland, the propriety of dealing with large sums of money drawn from the Imperial Treasury, and applying them for the purpose of endowing the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. For, disguise it as they might—wrap it up as they pleased—the proposition was, whether they would, out of the Imperial Treasury, endow the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. Now, that was too large a question to be discussed upon the occasion of a Bill for the purpose of merely advancing a loan for a few hundred thousand pounds, to be expended in public works. His noble Friend had laid it down as a fact, that as these few hundred thousand pounds were a payment made by Ireland, they were consequently Irish funds which their Lordships had to deal with. He (Lord Stanley) denied that. He said that it was an expenditure made, not by England solely, or by Ireland solely, but

1133
by the Imperial Treasury, which had made the original advance of the money, and which now proposed to forego payment of the advances immediately. But to say that because Ireland had repaid those funds, they should be deemed to be Irish funds, was, he should say, the most Irish way of looking at the question he had ever heard of. Ireland owed 900,000 l. to England, and had repaid it, and they proposed to deal with it as an imperial fund. "No," said his noble Friend behind him, and "no" said his noble Friend opposite; "remember it is an Irish fund which you are going to lend." But Ireland was not going to pay the money to England. Ireland was only going to repay to England the money which England lent to her before; and to say that therefore it was an Irish property, was a suggestion so strange that he could not properly designate it. He was not going to discuss the question of payment of the Roman Catholic clergy; but theoretically his noble Friend thought that it would be well to expend 900,000 l. for the purpose of erecting glebe-houses.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: Four millions and a half.
LORD STANLEY: His noble Friend's proposal then was, that out of an imperial fund, 4,500,000 l. should be applied to the building of glebe-houses, and to the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. That was not a question of policy only, but of principle also. It was a question of religious principle with a largo portion of the population of this country. He (Lord Stanley) did not look upon it in that light. He did not look upon it as a violation of the Protestant feeling, that this country should make a grant for the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy, for the purpose of making them more respectable in their position. But with a large portion of the people of this country, it was a religious question. With himself, he avowed it was merely a question of State policy; but it was with many a question of religion alone. And when their Lordships approached it, it should not be merely incidentally, but directly upon a proposition made by the Government, and not in the terms of a measure which proposed to regrant four or five millions for the advancement of public works in Ireland. He admitted that the Roman Catholic clergy were frequently too much under the control of their flocks. He admitted that it was desirable they should be less under such a control; but he con-
1134
fessed he was not satisfied with the doctrine laid down by his noble Friend behind him, in the plan which he had mooted, that the Roman Catholic clergy, in being placed in a condition of perfect independence of their flocks, should at the same time not be connected with the State. It would be a matter of policy, or he would plainly say of police with him (Lord Stanley); and he could not assent to the proposal that in doing as had been suggested, they should take no steps to connect the Roman Catholic clergy with the government of that clergy. But the subject was one upon which the whole question should be plainly brought before them before any proposition should be assented to. It was not therefore for the purpose of saying thst under no circumstances would he consent that any grant to the Roman Catholic clergy should be made by the State; nor, on the other band, was it for the purpose of saying that he would consent to such a grant without knowing what quid pro quo was to be demanded in return, that he addressed their Lordships. It was merely for the purpose of deprecating any hasty declaration of opinion being made upon a question which could not be fairly brought under the consideration of the House at present, that he had risen; and he also wished to express his regret that an opportunity which was so inexpedient should have been taken for the purpose of expressing any opinion upon a question that was wholly unconnected with the subject of debate. Her Majesty's Government, if they intended to make such a proposition as that of granting salaries to the Roman Catholic clergy, should bring it forward distinctly upon the full responsibility of the Government, and with a statement of the funds from which the endowment was to be provided, and of the terms upon which it was to be granted. He concurred in the declaration of his noble Friend that the source should not be the funds of the Protestant Church of Ireland; and that as it would be a local charge it should not be paid out of the Imperial Treasury, but out of funds raised upon Irish property. At the same time he confessed he thought that such a proposal would deprive his noble Friends of the support of many who now favoured the idea of endowing the Roman Catholic clergy. The proposition would meet with a great deal of opposition from the Protestants of England and of Scotland, and the north of Ireland; but he should conclude by repeating that the

1135
question was of far too great importance to be discussed until it should be brought before them with full notice, and upon the responsibility of Government.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, that whenever the question of the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland was raised, the question of the Established Church was considered to be directly involved in it. That should not be. The Established Church of Ireland might be an anomaly, but it was not a grievance. But the anomaly would be considerably increased if they were to have the clergy of another Church connected with the State as well as those of the originally Established Church. They would, besides, cause a division amongst the Roman Catholic clergy if they were to connect them with the State. What they ought to do should be to make the Catholic clergy independent of their flocks and of the State besides. He thought the plan proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) was the best that could have been suggested. The great advantage which would result from the adoption of the course suggested by the noble Earl opposite, would not only relieve them from any coercion they were now under on the part of their flocks, but it would enable them to avoid all political altercations. They would then be in a position to attend solely to the religious instruction of their parishioners. Instead of being mere citizens of the world, as they then wore, and looking to themselves merely as a largo body scattered over the country, and not more attached to this empire than to any other—for this feeling no doubt pervaded a large portion of the Catholic clergy in Ireland—they would become strongly attached to it. He should be glad if, by some step on the part of the Government; such as by a grant of money, or by other means, they could see the priests attached to British connexion, and have a direct interest in the welfare of the State. He believed that this would be a great measure of good to Ireland; and, above all, he believed that the greatest good would be produced by a great impetus being given to education, and he should grudge no amount of money for this purpose.
Bill read 2a.

CHARITY TRUST REGULATION BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
LORD STANLEYrose to object to the Motion. It must be in the recollection of the House that a right rev. Prelate on a former occasion expressed a strong hope that it was not the intention of the Government to persist in pressing this Bill at that period of the Session, and he cordially concurred in this opinion. Before they proceeded with the measure, it should be shown that there were circumstances of an urgent character which had presented themselves to Her Majesty's Government, so as to prevent them proceeding with this measure; but this had not been done. He deprecated the practice of introducing into that or the other House of Parliament measures at such a period of the Session, when it was clearly impossible that they could meet with due consideration. He believed that there was no reason whatever why this measure was not brought forward at the opening of the Session, and he certainly had not heard a shadow of excuse made why it had not then been brought forward. They had been told that the Bill was similar to that which was introduced last year. If that was the case, the Government should have made up their minds to have brought it forward at the commencement of the Session; for during the whole Session he had been urging on the Government not to crowd measures before the House at the end of the Session, and leave the House of Lords no business to attend to at the early part of it. It would appear that Her Majesty's Government were in full possession of this measure; there, therefore, could have been no difficulty in introducing it to the House for discussion many months ago. A right reverend Prelate had put a question some months ago to the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, as to whether it was the intention of the Government to bring forward a measure for the better regulation of the management of charities; and the noble and learned Lord answered that it was possible that some measure might be framed in the course of the present Session for dealing with minor charities. After this question had been put by the right reverend Prelate, not less than three months had been allowed to elapse, namely, to the middle of July, before the noble and learned Lord moved that this Bill be printed; and the Bill was brought forward for discussion last week in the absence of four-fifths of the Members of that House, and at a period of the Session when the ther House was overwhelmed with the consideration of business.

1137
At such a period a measure was I brought forward for discussion which involved principles altogether new, and embodied the most extensive changes. The noble and learned Lord admitted that some of the changes proposed were of great importance, and were a departure from the principles hitherto acted upon in the management of charities, and he therefore consented to throw over a great portion of his propositions, but added that he was anxious to pass that part of the Bill which related to the minor charities in the present Session. This was not the manner in which the Government should be carried on for the purposes of legislation, or in which measures which that and the other House were called on to pass should be framed. He understood that it was intended in the present Session not to pass any portion of the Bill connected with educational charities, but that these must be attended to at any early period of the next Session; he would therefore suggest, as so largo a portion of the Bill was to be postponed, that they should put it off altogether until the commencement of the next year, when the whole subject could be maturely considered, instead of proceeding to deal with it by piecemeal. If noble Lords would examine the clauses which were to be retained in the Bill, they would observe that although it pretended to deal only with charities with revenues under 30 l. a year, yet that, practically, it allowed every charity to be placed under its operation. It was certainly desirable to have the power of checking the expenditure of charities, the revenues of which were under 20 l. or 30 l. a year, summarily and without expense; but it was a question as to whether or not the County Courts were the fittest tribunal to adjudicate in the matter. If they looked to the expense of these courts, there could be no doubt as to its being very large. A return had recently been laid on the table as to the expense of some of these courts on a portion of the Home Circuit. It appeared that the total number of plaints lodged before the courts was 22,000. The total number of judgments given was 18,000; but not one-half of the amount of these judgments had yet been paid into court. But for these 18,000 judgments the fees of the court amounted to 4,000 l., and those fees constituted 25 per cent of the whole of the money paid into court. He believed these courts were to have the power of
1138
making orders for the management of charities, without any restriction on the Judges. He objected to invest any body of men with such a power without ample notice being given for the consideration of the matter. Then how were these courts to be set in motion? What security was there against the whole amount of the funds of these charities being absorbed in litigation in these courts? He found, also, that there was no restriction as to the costs of appearing in a case of this kind, for the Judge might make the award in any manner which he thought fit, and this without any appeal, for the judgment was declared to be final. Now, suppose the case of any charity connected with the Established Church, any Dissenter residing in the place where the charity existed, if he pleased, might apply to the Judge to make a new scheme for the management of the charity, and for which he might be liable to none of the expenses, but might saddle the charity with charges more than the whole amount of its revenue. This was a large power, which should not be delegated to such tribunals without the most full consideration, and without ample checks. It was true that a statement of any proposed new scheme for a charity must be published in the county newspaper; but there was no provision in the Bill for hearing objections to it, for after the Judge had promulgated the scheme, they were told that he must deposit it in some public place; but there was nothing to prevent its being carried into effect, however objectionable it might be, for the decision of the Judge was final and conclusive. On the 19th of July, when this important Bill was introduced, it was admitted by the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack to be of a most novel character, and which should receive full consideration, as it involved principles of no minor importance. Was it too much, then, for him, on the 4th of August, when they were invited to proceed to the consideration of a Bill the introduction of which had been postponed from February to July, to ask noble Lords to postpone it from August to next June? At this time also the House of Commons was so overwhelmed with business, that they were obliged to sit from twelve in the morning to two or three on the following morning. He was astonished that Her Majesty's Government should think it to be decent to introduce this important Bill, and send it down to the House of Com-

1139
mons, where it could only go through the mere form of passing it through its various stages. Seeing, then, that this Bill might have been introduced at an earlier period of the Session, and trusting also that the House would not sanction the principle of postponing the introduction of all measures into this House until the end of the Session, but at the same time admitting that in some respects the measure might be made useful and valuable, but on the principle that such a Bill should not be introduced at such a time—and if any inconvenience should arise from postponing it, it arose from the course of proceeding on the part of the Government—he trusted that their Lordships would think that he was justified in moving that the Committee on the Bill be postponed until that day three months.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that it appeared to him that the objections of the noble Lord were not so much to the principle of the Bill, for he had intimated that hereafter he might be induced to support it, as to the time when it was introduced. Now this objection would apply to every measure which might be brought forward at a late period of the Session, and even to one which might contain provisions which it was essential to pass without delay. He would undertake to prove to their Lordships in a very short space of time that there were enactments proposed in this Bill which were of very great necessity, and the delaying of which would be attended with great inconvenience. Although some of the provisions of the Bill which he now asked the House to assent to, were new, the subject had long been under the attention of the Government. The present Bill contained some very pressing matters, but there were other provisions on the subject which he had originally introduced into the Bill. These, no doubt, were of very great importance, but they did not call for the immediate decision of Parliament. He had thought that the plan which had been proposed with respect to the minor charities would meet with the approbation of all, and that the tribunal which had been selected, to which they were to be referred, would not have been objected to. If the noble Lord would look at matters dispassionately, he would see that it was not one which it was necessary to delay for the purpose of long consideration. He could not help feeling that the noble Lord had not taken notice of the
1140
real objects of the Bill, or of the evils to which it was intended to he applied. Was the noble Lord aware that at present, as regarded the large proportion of the charities which at present existed in this country, there was no remedy which could be applied with respect to the maladministration of their funds, for their revenues were so small that they never would bear the expenses of applying to the Court of Chancery. It had always been felt that some means should be devised for the management of the funds of such charities. There had been great difficulty in finding a proper jurisdiction, for formerly no local jurisdiction like the County Courts existed. It was proposed some years ago to make a number of new tribunals, specially for the superintendence of these charities; but this proposition was objectionable in consequence of the expense and patronage which would be involved in the adoption of the plan. They had thus had two years' experience of the mode of carrying on local jurisdiction in these courts; and on reflection he felt strongly they were well able to undertake the duties imposed by this Bill. The noble Lord complained of the expense of these courts. When they were first established it was impossible to tell with anything like exactness the amount of fees which would be required to defray the expenses of the courts; but after mature deliberation a table of fees was drawn up. It appeared, however, that the amount of fees received in some of these courts was so large that in some instances the Judges and officers of the court had received more than they ought to have received. After the experience which they had had, and after they had been able to calculate the expenses of the courts with some accuracy, he was ready to admit that it would be proper to reduce the fees, so that the amount collected should not be more than was necessary to pay the expenses of the courts; and he hoped before long a plan would be adopted by which the fees would be reduced one-half. Every one of the Judges of the County Courts had accepted office with the distinct understanding that they were to perform any duties which Parliament might impose on them, without having any larger remuneration than that which they received under the County Courts Act; and it was extremely important that when the salaries were about to be fixed, it should be clearly ascertained what dutes there would be to perform.

1141
That was one very good reason why Parliament should at once determine whether it would, or would not, transfer to the Judges in question the proposed jurisdiction. The passing of this Bill was, however, most important in relation to the charities themselves. It was proposed to deal with 48,000 charities, for a large proposition of which there were no trustees provided, and no means of ensuring their satisfactory administration. The funds would, under the provisions of the Bill, he paid into the hands of the treasurer of the County Courts, who was to be the depository of the legal estate; but, instead of that officer having the management of the property, its administration was to be left to the trustees. If their Lordships would allow the Bill to go into Committee, he would then state what alterations he intended to suggest; but no satisfactory discussion could take place before, inasmuch as there was no objection to the principle of the measure. He would observe that there existed at present a great want of the means of local investigation, and it was Proposed to take powers for supplying that defect. It was extremely desirable that such arrangements should be made, that parties would not he obliged to bring all their witnesses and papers up to London. No one need be afraid that the proposed jurisdiction would be abused; but if any better mode of preventing abuse could be suggested than that Provided by the Bill, he should he happy to assent to it. He again submitted that the Bill ought not to be rejected because it had not been introduced sooner. If good in itself, it should be allowed to pass. Even as regarded the objection of time, he must remind their Lordships that the Bill had been before them three weeks, and that there was no other urgent business pressing on their attention at that moment.
LORD REDESDALEregretted that the noble and learned Lord had treated the objection to the time when the Bill had been introduced in the manner that he had done. It was all very well to talk about three weeks being enough to consider the Bill; but there were several parts to which he objected, and he could not, in so short a Period, form a correct opinion of the details of such a subject. The Bill had been withheld until a period of the Session when many Peers were absent, and when there was no opportunity for proper deliberation; and he thought their Lordships would, under all the circum-
1142
stances of the case, be fully justified in postponing the consideration of it until next Session.
The BISHOP of OXFORDsaid, he must vote against going into Committee. He fully admitted the greatness of the evil; but it did not follow from that that he should take at random the first moans of meeting it which might be suggested. The very circumstance that these charities were so numerous, made it the more imperative that their Lordships should legislate with care, and make themselves acquainted with all the details. The measure was one especially of a parochial character; the charities affected by it were almost all of early foundation; and it was impossible, within so short a space of time, to acquire the requisite amount of information. Nearly all that was most important in the Bill was not to he found in the Bill of last year. No care was taken by the framers of the measure to prevent any possible abuse of the jurisdiction to be exercised. A shrewd Dissenting attorney, holding the office of Judge, might, under its operation, divert Church property from its proper object, and apply it to objects not contemplated, on the ground that he thought the new application would be beneficial. It was alien to the character of that House to sanction such a method of dealing with property of that description. On a former occasion, indeed, the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack had stated that he was opposed to the giving powers to Commissioners to change trusts, observing that to do so was to act on a novel principle in legislation. Yet the noble and learned Lord now proposed to give such powers, not to Commissioners, or to persons of high standing, but to every Judge of a County Court in England. Much as he (the Bishop of Oxford) desired to see some remedy provided for great and admitted evils, he felt that had legislation on such a subject was exceedingly dangerous; that while it was very difficult to retrace a wrong step, it was very easy to do an injustice; and he thought the House ought to have an opportunity of further considering the subject before it came to a division. Unless the Bill were fairly considered by a Select Committee, and fully deliberated upon by their Lordships, the passing of it could lead to no satisfactory result.
On question that the word "now" stand part of the question, House divided:—Contents 21; Non-Contents 17; Majority 4.

List of the CONTENTS.

The Lord Chancellor.

BARONS.

MARQUESSES.

Langdale

Lansdowne

Camoys

Clanricarde.

Colborne

EARLS.

Byron

Waldegrave

Monteagle

Grey

Campbell

Minto

Beaumont

Auckland

Milford

Granville.

Wrottesley

Morley

Leitrim

Strafford.

Eddisbury.

Paired off.

FOR.

AGAINST.

Earl Spencer

Earl of Malmesbury

Earl Fortescue

Lord Colchester

Lord Foley

Lord Templemore

Lord Sudeley

Earl of Stradbroke

Bishop of Norwich

Earl of Tankerville

Earl of Radnor

Lord Sondes

Earl Fitzhardinge

Earl of Digby

Bishop of Hereford

Lord Skelmersdale

Lord Crewe

Earl Jersey

Duke of Grafton

Earl of Cardigan

Lord Brougham

Duke of Beaufort

Earl of Scarborough

Lord Forester

Earl of Charlemont

Lord Beauchamp

Lord Carrington

Earl of Hardwicke

Lord De Mauley

Earl of Glengall.

House in Committee.
Amendment made; other Amendments moved and negatived. Report to be received.
House adjourned.