Lords Sitting of 14 April 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Lord Blaney.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Smoke Prohibition; Parliamentary Proceedings Adjournment.
2a Leases of Mines (Ireland).
3aand passed;—Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Deerness, for Alteration of the Present System of Parochial Education, Scotland.—From Shipowners, and others, of the Port of Grangemouth, against any Alteration of the Navigation Laws.—From the Members of several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, Manchester Unity, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.—From Liverpool, Bristol, and other Places, to be relieved from the Imposition of Legacy Duty on Charitable Bequests.—From Kiltennel, against the National System of Education, Ireland.—From the Magistracy of Forres, for an Alteration of the Poor Law, Scotland.—From Cheltenham, in favour of the Election Recognizances Bill.—From Cannington, against the Diplomatic Relations, Court of Rome, Bill.

THE CORN AVERAGES.
The DUKE of RICHMOND said, it was not his intention to trouble their Lordships with a long speech in putting the question to his noble Friend relating to the Corn Averages, of which he had given notice. In doing so he begged to state distinctly that he had no intention of making any attack upon the officers of the Board of Trade, for he acquitted them of any negligence in making up the returns. But their Lordships must be aware that to every one in any way connected with land, it was of the utmost importance that those averages should be true, inasmuch as all payments under the Tithe Commutation Act depended upon and were regulated by them. He believed that a very considerable portion of the corn grown in this country never came into the averages at all, being sold without going through any regular market. But what he complained of was, that the corn inspectors appointed to make returns from the various markets named in the Act, did not properly discharge their duty; that those gentlemen—he might also have said ladies, for he understood that the wives of some influential

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electors had received the appointment—had shown much carelessness in the performance of their duty. He wished to ask, whether the corn inspectors were required to keep any books in which to register the returns made by them; and whether, on the part of the Board of Trade, or any other department of the Government, any one was sent into the country to see that the duty was regularly and properly performed. Any local inspection by the landed proprietors would, he knew, lead to great dissatisfaction on the part of the farmers, who would be jealous of their landlords having an opportunity of knowing the quantity of corn sold by them. But at the same time a very general opinion prevailed in the country that very gross mistakes had been made in the average prices of both wheat and barley. The Act provided a penalty for an improper discharge of the duty of inspector; but he believed it had never been enforced. He wished to ask his noble Friend, whether the returns could be depended upon, and would the Government take means to ensure a better supervision of the inspectors?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, he had made inquiries at the office of the Board of Trade, and he was informed that in the new towns the returns were made by excise officers, and in the old by clerks to solicitors and shopkeepers; as the offices became vacant in the latter places they would be filled up by officers of the Excise. The officers of the Board of Trade were of opinion that the averages in general were correct.

BUSINESS OF PARLIAMENT.
LORD STANLEY rose, in pursuance of notice, to call the attention of their Lordships to the mode of carrying on the public business in that and the other House of Parliament. He hoped that, if compelled in the course of his observations to speak in very plain terms, he would be forgiven by their Lordships as well as elsewhere, on the consideration that his only object was to point out to their Lordships what he believed were great and increasing evils in the conduct of the legislative business of the country, and to suggest a mode in which those evils might be met. He did not intend to deal with the private business of either House, or the appointment of Committees, either public or private. He should confine himself to one very important point. That to which he wished to direct the attention of their Lordships was the business of legislation—the mode of introducing and
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carrying through both Houses of Parliament the laws which were embodied in the public general statutes of the realm. It was impossible for him to look back on a period of now more than twenty-five years, over which his experience of Parliament extended, without seeing that, in the course of that time, there had been, not only a great alteration in the constitution and character of the House of Commons, but also in the feeling with which their Lordships' House and the other House of Parliament were regarded by the public at large. He did not say that the change was altogether disadvantageous, nor would he say that it was altogether beneficial. In the first place, much greater attention was generally paid throughout the country to public business and legislation than was the case some years ago, There was, and he rejoiced to see it, a much greater amount of general information diffused throughout the community in regard to the legislation of the country. But this advantage, which he regarded as inestimable, was not unaccompanied by evil. There was a general and self-complacent belief on the part of almost every individual person in the community that he was fit and competent to judge of every measure submitted to this and the other House of Parliament. There was consequently greater activity in pressing measures of legislation, and at the same time far less deference for the opinions of their Lordships in that House as well as of the representatives of the people in the other House of Parliament. Within the walls of the other House of Parliament a somewhat similar change had taken place. Constituencies watched their representatives more narrowly, perhaps requiring them too frequently to submit their individual judgment to the wishes of their constituents. But, certainly, representatives had greater inducements to recommend themselves to the notice of their constituents by much greater activity in speaking—a result which did not tend to the advancement of public business. There was a most lamentable facility of diction, at all events, in the other House of Parliament, which might be gratifying to constituencies when displayed by their representatives, but which did not tend much either to the edification of those who listened to the orations, or to the advancement of public business. Adjourned debates for two or three nights had become the rule, and debates begun and ended in one night the exception. It were needless to say how such a practice interfered with private

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business. Again, there was a disposition on the part of the public to expect at the hands of the Government legislative remedies for public grievances. While that responsibility was cast on the Government, their facilities for carrying measures through Parliament were greatly diminished. In the other House two nights only in the week were set apart for carrying on measures connected with the public service. The other three days were given up to Motions proposed by individual Members, or Bills with which they were charged. But so far was the Government from having control over the two days on which they might proceed with their own measures, on every Motion for going into Committee of Supply, it was the privilege of any Member to introduce any subject, and to take up, with the discussion of such subject, the whole of a night allotted to Government business. The same might be repeated on the following and successive night, on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply. And fortunate was the Government if it had only one night occupied with such interruption. It was necessary that the financial affairs of the country should be duly considered, and provision made for the exigencies of the public service before the Easter recess. The annual Mutiny Bill ought to be passed before the same period. But the result of the practice which now prevailed was, that the business of legislation or of law-making could not practically commence before the month of May or of June. When that unfortunate facility of speaking which occupied the earlier part of the Session began to abate—when the country was blessed with fine weather and a hot summer, and the attendance in Parliament became rather oppressive—then began, in the other House of Parliament, the despatch of legislative business. Measures were then brought in wholesale. With numerous Committees, either the business was interminable, or the Government had to alter Bills to conciliate opposition and get them passed, however disjointed. From his experience of the House of Commons it was often a matter of astonishment to him, not that measures were often attended with great difficulty as regarded their interpretation, but that they came out of the hands of Committees expressed in tolerable English. Amendments were often made in one clause without reference to another; and frequently even in point of sense the different portions of measures were totally inconsistent with each other. Bills were sent out of the
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House of Commons in that state. As Richard the Third said of himself, it might be said of them, that they were—
"Sent before their time
Into this breathing world;"—
and the consequence was, that they were
"Scarce half made up,
And that so lamely and unfashionable"—
that, if "dogs" did not "bark" at them, lawyers carped at them, so soon as they came to be acted upon, and their inconsistencies stood revealed. The noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, or the noble and learned Chief Justice, when such Acts had to be considered for judicial objects, too frequently found that, with their margin—
"Chaos sat supreme,
And by decisions, more embroiled the fray."
He deprecated the method of legislation pursued in the other House of Parliament. He did not wish to draw any invidious distinctions between individuals; but his experience led him to give great credit to his countrymen from the northern part of the island. There was less discussion on Scotch Bills than on measures connected with any other portion of the kingdom; and the Scotch business done bore a far greater proportion to the Scotch speeches made, than that exhibited in regard to matters connected with any other part of the empire. The Scotch Members were in the habit of doing business without talking much about it. Before a Bill came before Parliament, they appeared to have consulted and discussed the matter, so that when the measure was introduced it passed through its stages without much remark or material alteration. He had confined his observations hitherto to the House of Commons, because there, according to the prevailing practice, the business of legislation commenced. The delay in originating Bills, which were then hurried through their stages, involved, as a consequence, still greater delay in the legislation of their Lordships' House, and still greater hurry in disposing of the measures. By no fault of their own, he feared they were sinking in public estimation as a body of useful legislators—because for the first five or six months of the Session of Parliament they were in a state of compulsory inactivity; and in the course of the last five or six months of the Session they had a mass of business before them to which they could not properly attend. In the system of hasty and defective legislation they made themselves unwilling accomplices. If they dropped measures on account of the

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period of the Session, the result was, that having been wholly inactive during the early part of the Session, they were compelled at its close to put aside measures on which the House of Commons might have bestowed great pains and much time, and the stoppage of which might be regarded by the country as a mischievous interference with useful legislation. He would take an illustration from what had occurred in the last three years; during the first of those years a Conservative Administration, of which he was a Member, held office; the second year was one in which a change of Government took place; and in the third, the conduct of public affairs was entirely under the control of the present Administration. In 1845, there were passed through Parliament altogether 132 Acts; of those, 23 were originated in the House of Lords, 109 in the House of Commons. A number of Bills coming from the Commons, which, being of a routine character, their Lordships did not think it necessary to print, were excluded from the calculation. But of 91 Bills sent up from the Commons in 1845, and printed, there were sent up in February, 1; in March, 5; in April, 12; in May, 4; in June, 9; in July, 59; in August, 1. Of the Acts which were brought up in 1845, and passed, 63, or one-half of the whole number, were substituted for the first time to the inspection of their Lordships during the last six weeks of the Session. He spoke only of public Bills. In the Session of 1846, of 117 Acts which were passed, 12 originated in the House of Lords, and 105 in the House of Commons. Of these 26 were not printed. Of the remaining 79, 28 reached their Lordships' House before the end of June; 15 were sent up in July, and 36 in August. In July and August their Lordships were called upon to consider no less than 51 Bills, which they passed into Acts, whether they considered them or not. In the Session of 1847, 115 Acts passed, of which 11 originated in the Lords, and 104 in the Commons; 7 were not printed, leaving 97. The last was what was considered an early Session of Parliament. There were brought up from the House of Commons in January 2 Bills, in February 6, in March 7, in April 10, in May 15—in all 40 Bills up to that period. In June there were brought up 28, in July 29, being 57 Bills sent up and passed during those two months. 49 of these were sent up and passed during the last six weeks, and 28 were actually brought up for the
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first time to their Lordships, and passed through their various stages, in the three weeks previous to the prorogation of Parliament. It was impossible to look at these facts and figures, and say that the legislation of the country was conducted on a principle which was either creditable to the Legislature, or calculated to inspire confidence in Acts of Parliament themselves. The result was, that almost immediately after the passing of the Acts, defects were found in them, and it became necessary to introduce Acts to amend Acts, so that not only did this mode of conducting the public business result in legislation being enormously and inconveniently increased, but both the Legislature and the legislation suffered in public opinion. He had thus stated frankly what were the evils of the present system. He thought it could not be said that he had overdrawn its inconvenience to the public service; and while he charged these evils upon no Government—for they were wholly beyond the control of Government—he was quite sure that all those who had been, or who expected hereafter to be, connected with the conduct of public affairs, must find it their interest to supply a remedy to these serious evils. He knew it would be said that one cause of the great inconvenience was that it was impossible to originate in their Lordships' House a great majority of the Acts of Parliament, because there were very few of them which did not clash with the Parliamentary privileges of the House of Commons. He admitted that it was so; but he was afraid their Lordships' House was not the one capable of suggesting the remedy for this state of things. He earnestly hoped, however, that the House of Commons would take into their deliberate consideration whether their privileges were not inconveniently strained for their own purposes, and whether, without any abandonment of their constitutional privileges, or the least fear of depriving themselves of those powers which were essential to the balance of the constitution, some relaxation of those privileges might not be useful to the public service. He believed there was in the House of Commons a Committee specially for advising with the Speaker upon the conduct of the business of that House; and he could not conceive a subject more worthy of the attention of that Committee, than the possibility of relaxing the privileges of the House of Commons; and he was sure that any recommendation emanating from such a body,

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presided over by a right hon. Gentleman who commanded the universal esteem and confidence of all parties, would not fail to bed received with general approbation. He must say, further, that much as he regretted the restraint upon the free action of their Lordships at the early period of the Session, yet he was ready to confess that, in the majority of cases, he would not desire that legislation should originate in their Lordships' House; considering, as he did, that the great body he had the honour of addressing were more fitly employed in controlling, revising, and superintending the hasty legislation of the more popular branch, than in originating and sending down measures for their consideration. Besides, he had remarked—he knew not whether he was mistaken—but certainly he had remarked that, as a general rule, Bills originating in their Lordships' House were not always received with great favour by the other branch. He had observed that, whether from the non-publication of their Lordships' Papers, or the scanty attendance of their Lordships not attracting public attention, undoubtedly it often happened that measures, which passed that House with apparent unanimity and without exciting any objection out of doors, were made the subject of severe contest and strong animadversion when they reached the other House. He would therefore, as a general rule, infinitely prefer that Bills should come in the first instance from the House of Commons, believing that the more proper function of their Lordships was to control, amend, and revise the legislation of the House of Commons. He confessed that the only mode which occurred to him of remedying, or rather of palliating, what he considered, and what he hoped their Lordships also considered, to be a great evil, of having a drought of business at the beginning, and a perfect deluge at the end, of the Session, was to convert these into an equal stream to be carried through the whole of the Session. He hoped he would be permitted to say also—speaking as he did frankly and without reserve of the evils of the present system—that, independent of the inconvenience to the country and to their Lordships' House which resulted from the state of inactivity to which they were condemned at an early period of each Session, there was another evil arising from it, inasmuch as the younger Members of their Lordships' House—more especially those who had not been trained to habits of bu-
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siness in the other House—had no inducement to give their attendance where there was no business to be done. Consequently, these younger Members did not acquire that legislative experience and those habits of legislative industry which, at the present time more especially and emphatically, he held to be a matter of vital importance should be possessed by Members of the Upper House of Legislature. The remedy which he ventured humbly to suggest was one which he hoped would not startle those who disliked innovations in the main, because he admitted it was an innovation on the practice of the House. The remedy was this, to grant to that House, of course by an Act of Parliament, the power, when they saw fit, upon the receipt of a Bill passed by the other House of Parliament, and previous to the reference of the Bill to a Committee of their Lordships' House, to adjourn the consideration of the measure from the period of the Session at which they could not deliberately enter upon its consideration, to an early day to be named at the commencement of the next Session of Parliament; and that that House should then be permitted to proceed with the Bill as if the prorogation had not intervened, and as if the Bill had just been sent from the other House of Parliament. He thought that many advantages would arise from the adoption of this principle. In the first place, it would afford a fitting employment to their Lordships at the early period of every Session, during which they were at present necessarily inactive. In the next place, at the close of the Session, their Lordships would not have the painful alternative thrust upon them of passing or rejecting measures equally without consideration—of either admitting them, and thus, perhaps, giving their sanction to imperfect legislation, or rejecting them, and thus rendering futile and vain the whole of the previous proceedings in the other House of Parliament, and compelling their promoters to proceed in the next Session de novo, subject to all the interruptions and difficulties of such a course. There was a collateral advantage which he might mention. He did not think that any injury would be done by having before the country for four or five months the Bills passed by the House of Commons in the state in which they left that House, and by hearing the general opinions of the country on the details of those Bills before they came under the consideration of their Lordships

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in the following Session of Parliament. He would also venture to suggest that with respect to all measures so postponed, their Lordships might have the power of referring them to some competent legal adviser, for the purpose of examining their technical phraseology, and the bearing which one clause would have upon another, as well as their bearing upon other Acts, and more especially recent Acts of Parliament; and thus furnishing their Lordships with a legal report upon the bearings of every Bill so suspended. He believed, that if this were done, the legislation, while it would be diminished in amount, would be infinitely improved in quality. He was quite satisfied that their Lordships, both at the commencement and the close of the Session, would be placed in a situation not only more satisfactory to their own feelings and their own desires, but also more creditable to the conduct of their business, and more calculated to raise their Lordships in public estimation. He apprehended, however, that the Bill which he proposed to introduce for effecting these alterations, would, to some extent, be an infringement of the prerogative of the Crown. Their Lordships were aware that Her Majesty had the power, by proroguing Parliament, of putting a stop to the legislation then in progress, though it was a power which in the present day would be little exercised. He could not conceive that any Government would advise the Crown to prorogue Parliament for the purpose of defeating a measure which had already obtained the assent of the House of Commons, and which it was understood was about to receive the assent of the House of Lords. He could hardly conceive such a case, but still such a case might arise. Even in that case, however, there would be no infringement of the prerogative, unless in each particular case their Lordships passed a resolution that the Bill should be adjourned till next Session. But the prerogative might still be exercised in any case where a Bill was pending, and where no such resolution was passed respecting it. He did not ask to deprive their Lordships of any power they now possessed to pass Bills, but he proposed that in any case where they thought fit—say in the case of a Poor Law Bill, a Sanitary Regulations Bill, or one for the amendment of the law, or for the improvement of the constitution of the courts of law—which they might receive so near the close of the Session as to prevent them
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doing justice to it—they should have the power of postponing such Bill till the next Session, without rendering any previous labour bestowed upon it vain and useless. He had endeavoured to ascertain whether, on the ground of privilege, there was likely to be any well-founded objection to this measure on the part of the House of Commons; and he was satisfied, provided it did not extend, as he did not propose it should, to Bills the main purpose of which was connected with the levying of taxes, there would be no reasonable ground for jealousy on the part of the House of Commons. He thanked their Lordships for the patient hearing which they had given him. He had prepared a Bill, which, with their Lordships' permission, he would lay on the table of the House; and if they were disposed to give it a first reading now, he would propose that it should stand over till after the Easter recess. He asked their Lordships to give the subject that consideration to which he thought it was entitled, in order to apply a practical remedy to that which they all agreed was a practical evil of no small magnitude.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE did not rise to discuss the Bill on its first reading; but he could not allow that opportunity to pass without expressing on his own part and that of the House, the thanks they owed to the noble Lord for the consideration he had bestowed on this subject, undoubtedly one which had forced itself again on the attention of almost every Member of the House. The noble Lord had stated, that the evil he complained of was not the fault of any Government; but there could be no doubt that, Session after Session, public business was, for the reasons he had stated, retarded and impeded in the other House of Parliament; that many measures did not, in consequence, receive that due consideration which they demanded; and that thus a practical impediment to legislation was experienced. There might be different views entertained as to the details of the noble Lord's Bill; for example, as to what was the most proper stage of my measure at which the suspension should take place. But on these points he would not enter, and would in the meantime only observe that the principle of the Bill had his most entire concurrence.
Loan BROUGHAM gave his cordial concurrence to the Bill, and would give it every consideration in his power; though he must say he had some doubts how far

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an Act of Parliament was required for the purpose contemplated. It appeared to him to be very much a matter settled by the Standing Orders, for, in point of fact, they could at present drop a Bill which came up to them at the close of the Session, either at the second reading or at the Committee, and could take up that precise Bill in the next Session, and pass it through all its stages; while the House of Commons, having previously considered the Bill, could, if they chose, pass it also without discussion. He concurred in what had been said as to the precipitancy with which, at the close of a Session, important measures of legislation were passed; and he could not avoid saying, what he had done on various other occasions, that some method ought to be adopted for getting better framed Acts of Parliament, and for the avoidance of rash and blundering lawmaking. His noble Friend had referred to one mode of effecting this object—the obtaining the assistance of learned, experienced, and practised men in preparing Acts of Parliament; and he thought the greatest improvement that could be effected in legislation would be the establishment of a Board of such learned and practised men to revise the draughts of all Acts; and after they had become Bills, and undergone any changes, to revise those changes, compare them with the original draught, and see that there was nothing in the Bill contradictory of other Acts of Parliament. In this way they might avoid the mass of inextricable confusion that now prevailed—the using of the same words in different senses, sometimes in the same Act, sometimes in the same clause; and the use of phrases in one part of the Act without any regard to their use in another; the result of which was, that when these laws were promulgated and sent to the country, and came to be considered by the Judges, those learned and eminent persons were compelled to make meaning out of that which had no meaning, to reconcile contradictions that were irreconcileable, and to do many that were impossible—all which would be infallibly and unfailingly prevented by the adoption of some efficient mode of revisal in Parliament. He also concurred in thinking that means should be adopted to insure a more deliberate course of legislation than was now permitted them at the end of a Session. Why, it had come to this, that the House of Lords could not be said to have a free agency in considering,
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correcting, and improving many measures that came from the House of Commons; for when a Bill came up near the end of a Session, it just meant that they must either pass it or throw it out at once. He hoped that no long time would elapse before means were adopted to secure not only the object aimed at by the noble Lord, but a more perfect description of legislation.
LORD REDESDALE considered that this was an alteration so serious that he never could make up his mind to agree to it. It was a proposal that required the deepest deliberation of all parties before it was carried into a law. In his opinion it would virtually give the power of passing a Bill with the consent of one House only and the Crown. That was a power which he viewed with great jealousy, and one which he thought would be attended with very great danger.
The DUKE of RICHMOND could not agree with his noble Friend (Lord Redesdale). He thought such a measure as had been proposed would be attended with great benefit, and would tend very much to remedy an evil which all acknowledged.
Bill read la.
House adjourned.