Lords Sitting of 10 April 1848

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Viscount St. Vincent. PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Mutiny; Marine Mutiny.
3a and passed;—Property Tax.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Schull, for the Imposition of the Severest Penalties on all Roman Catholic Priests who shall Denounce Persons from the Altar.—From Members of several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, Manchester Unity, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.—From Downpatrick, for the Re-enactment of the Anti-Procession Law.

THE MEETING AT KENNINGTON COMMON.
In answer to a question from the Marquess of NORTHAMPTON,
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE saidThe noble Marquess has put a question to me with respect to certain prooceedings which had been announced for to-day, and which had undoubtedly the effect of greatly alarming many persons. I am happy to inform my noble Friend, that, at least now, there is no reason whatever for such alarm. The meeting which was attempted to be held on Kennington Common today was dispersed by the police only, without the assistance, or even the presence, of a single soldier. It was dispersed without bloodshed, and under circumstances that render any renewal of the attempt in the highest degree improbable. The petition which has been the subject of the meeting that had occasioned so much alarm and consternation has been brought in the quietest manner—I believe in cabs hired for the purpose—to the other House of Parliament, where it has been received, and whither it was conveyed without any obstruction whatever. It is equally a satisfaction to me to know that there has been no interference with the unquestionable right of petition which belongs to all classes of Her Majesty's subjects, but which, I must add, should always be exercised in a constitutional manner.
LORD BROUGHAMMy Lords, there is no one can rejoice more than I do at the gratifying account which the noble Marquess has been able to give. I agree with him that it is most important for the peace of the country, as well as for the liberty of the subject—for the rights of the Crown as well as of the people—that the unquestionably all-important right of petition should be as little as may be, and unless where absolute necessity requires it, ever interfered with. And, my Lords, I hold the right of public meeting for discussion to stand in the same position, and on the same grounds. But I hold it to be an absolutely essential condition to the exercise of that right, and to its existence as a matter of right, that the meeting should be for discussion alone. Wherever it is a

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mere assemblage of numbers, too large for any possibility of discussion, it becomes an assemblage of numbers merely for the display of physical force, and can only have the intention of overawing the Government, and of forcing measures on the Government and on the Parliament. If people have a right to a display of force, they can only have the right when that force is called for by the Government of the country, under the sanction of the Parliament of the country. Therefore, I have ever held that those meetings that are called, whether in England or in Ireland, "monster meetings," are, in themselves, essentially illegal. They are mere exhibitions of physical force, and it is only by a perversion of language that they can be affected or pretended to be meetings for that which becomes an impossibility at them—discussion. All never dream of speaking; but all, if they do not dream of acting, place themselves in a position that, without any will or intention of their own, they may be driven, before they know it, into illegal courses. And this is the view which I, and those with whom I had the honour of acting in the other House of Parliament, openly held on the occasion of the great assemblage in Manchester, in August, I think it was, 1819. We disapproved loudly, and, as far as we were concerned, unanimously, of the conduct of the Government on that occasion; but the late Lord Abinger and myself, then in opposition to the Government, avowed unhesitatingly that the meeting itself was, nevertheless, not a lawful meeting.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONI firmly believe, my Lords, that the speech of my noble Friend is founded on the law of the country as it exists, and I hope that it will be so understood by the public; for I do think no great society has ever suffered such a grievance as this metropolis has suffered within the last few days from the error of this great meeting which was to have consisted, it was said, of 200,000 persons. God knows how many thousands really did attend; but still the effect was to place all the inhabitants of the metropolis under alarm, paralysing all trade and business of every description, and driving individuals to seek for safety by arming themselves for the protection of the lives of themselves and of their neighbours, and for the security of their property. The inconveniencies which were experienced this day, have been now repeated for, I believe, a fourth time in this short Session
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of Parliament. I trust that by the Bill which is now pending in the other House of Parliament, or by other measures that may be considered necessary, the law shall be explained and understood, so that meetings may be limited to the numbers that can properly discuss the questions that are to be considered by the individuals who think proper to discuss them; and that a great metropolis such as this is—the mart of trade and of commercial credit—shall not be disturbed week after week by such transactions as have been going on around us for the last few days. If any men concert—I will not say conspire—together for the purpose of getting up such large meetings in such a town as this is, the consequence must be, to place all the inhabitants under arms, thus taking them away from their common business, in order to defend themselves, their neighbours, and their property. I cannot hesitate to express my gratification at hearing from my noble Friend that this meeting to-day has been dispersed entirely by the efforts of the police, and without the aid of a single soldier being required. At the same time I must say, on the part of the department with which I am connected, that we were quite prepared, if necessity required it, to give any support that the preservation of the law and safety of the country might call for.
The MARQUESS of NORTHAMPTONsaid, that he had heard with great satisfaction the explanation given by the noble Marquess; and he begged to express on the part of the country his sense of the admirable precautions adopted by Her Majesty's Government. He thought that much praise was due to the middle classes of London for the spirit of order, religion, and morality, which they had displayed throughout these proceedings. As long as that spirit prevailed, and while the people of England showed such a disposition to do their duty as good and loyal subjects, there was no danger of the peace and comfort which the British people enjoyed being disturbed, no matter what distress and disorder might prevail in other countries.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEbegged to add, that Her Majesty's Government had received the most unequivocal support from the great body of the people, not only in the metropolis, but in all the neighbouring parts of the country. All showed themselves ready to make the greatest sacrifices, if necessary, in sup-

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port of law and order. And he would say, that if there was any circumstance which had imparted to Her Majesty's Government more than another that degree of confidence which they possessed, and which was necessary, in order to enable them to act as they had done, it was the certainty which they had acquired within the last eight and forty hours, that there was no class on whom they might have occasion to call for support from whom they would not have received it.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYsaid, that if there were any repetition of the proceedings of the past week, he hoped the Government would direct their attention to the large number of foreigners who were at present in this country.
House adjourned.