Lords Sitting of 3 April 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Property Tax.—Stamp Duties Assimilation.
3° and passed; Borough Police Superannuation Fund.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Brailsford, for the Imposition of the Severest Penalties on all Roman Catholic Priests who shall Denounce Persons from the Altar.—
From Falmouth and Plymouth, for Exemption of Charitable Bequests from Legacy Duties—From Members of several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, Manchester Unity, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.—From Hartlepool, for a Select Committee to Inquire into the Policy of a Continuance of the Navigation Laws.

AFFAIRS OF ITALY.
The EARL of ABERDEEN: I am desirous of putting a question to the noble Marquess opposite with respect to an important event that has recently taken place in the north of Italy; and as I have given him notice of the terms of that question, I shall now proceed, with your Lordships' permission, to put it. Your Lordships will recollect that some weeks ago the noble Marquess laid on the table of the House, although without any explanation, or without any Motion having been made on the subject, a correspondence that had taken place with the Austrian Government relating to the possibility of their interference in the affairs of Italy. It was not very apparent with what precise object that communication was made to the House, but, at all events, the correspondence concluded with a declaration that any aggression upon the territories or rights of the King of Sardinia could not be viewed by the Government of Great Britain with indifference. Your Lordships are aware that, in diplomatic language, this expression, "would not be viewed with indifference," may mean a great deal, or it may mean very little; but, at all events, the expression is a species of protest that enables the party making use of it to act hereafter according to what may appear to be most expedient, and just, and proper. Whether a similar declaration was made at the same time to the Court of Sardinia, mutatis mutandis, I do not know; but certainly that ought to have been the case. It appeared to me at the time, that this declaration made to the Austrian Government was altogether gratuitous, and that there need have been no apprehension of any aggression on the part of Austria. The policy of Austria in Italy may have been good or bad, but certainly it was not aggressive: there was every reason, on the contrary, to suppose and apprehend that the aggression would proceed from the other side. The state of Italy rendered this probable; and this probability was increased, and must have been increased, in the mind of every man who recollected the ancient and constant policy of the House of Savoy. It was the maxim of one of the princes of that House—a

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maxim which his descendants had ever kept in view—that Lombardy ought to be considered as an artichoke, to be eaten leaf by leaf; but King Charles Albert seems to fancy that he has so good an appetite that he ought at once to devour the whole plant. But be this as it may, it is to be observed, that amidst all the convulsions which we have witnessed around us—convulsions most unexampled and portentous—the King of Sardinia is the first Power who has directly controverted the public law of Europe. He has thought right to command his troops to enter the territory of a neighbouring, friendly, and allied Power, without the slightest pretext of a grievance, without any provocation, and without any complaint or reason assigned whatever, and also in direct violation of engagements by which he as well as this country was solemnly bound. I think, ray Lords, that this violation of the public law should not pass altogether unnoticed by those who desire to preserve the peace of Europe. I do not wish, however, to be misunderstood. I have nothing to say to the endeavours of the people of Lombardy to shake off the power and dominion of Austria. That is their own affair. If they succeed in this endeavour, I only hope that they may find themselves as happy and as prosperous as they will be more free, than under the Government of Austria. But your Lordships are not to suppose that this endeavour is made against an usurping Power, or that the Austrian Government is to be held as a Government of usurpation. Lombardy has been under the dominion of the family of Austria for three centuries; and since the Peace of Utrecht has been positively assured to the Emperor and his family by all Europe; therefore these are not dominions which the King of Sardinia, who himself received great accessions to his territory only the other day, can consider as having been usurped by the House of Austria, and can propose to add to his own dominions without a violation of treaties. Be that, however, as it may, I have no opinion to give as to the efforts now making by the people of Lombardy. I have only good wishes to offer as to the result of any assertion of their rights which they may make: it is the violation of treaties and of public law on which alone I wish to speak; and the question I now wish to put to the noble Marquess is, whether, considering what took place with the Austrian Government on this subject, Her Majesty's
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Government have at any time expressed to the Government of Sardinia that any aggression of this description, in violation of those engagements by which the King of Sardinia as well as this country is bound, would not be viewed by Great Britain with indifference?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I have no wish to deny the importance of the events to which the noble Earl has just alluded; and I can have no hesitation in answering his question, as put in the terms in which he announced it to me within these few hours. At the same time, I am convinced the noble Earl will excuse me for not following him into any general observations on this subject—observations which it may be more or less wise, or more or less prudent, in reference to the general relations of this country, to abstain from. The subject on which the noble Earl intimated that he would put a question to me was "respecting the course pursued by the British Government in consequence of the entrance into Lombardy of the Piedmontese troops." These were the words of my noble Friend. I am not prepared to state at this moment any particular course that it is the intention of this country or of Her Majesty's Government to adopt in reference to this matter. I can, however, state, and I am glad to have an opportunity of doing so, that although it is quite impossible that Government could have received any application from Austria on this subject subsequent to the entrance of the Piedmontese troops into Lombardy, and although the noble Earl well knows that this country is not bound by any treaty to assist the Austrian Power in the defence of Lombardy if attacked; yet, unbound by any such engagement, Her Majesty's Government did think it right to instruct their Minister to express their hope and confidence that in the present alarming and agitated state of all the countries in that part of the world, His Majesty the King of Sardinia might deem it advisable to preserve a perfect neutrality. That was the advice of Her Majesty's Ministers. It was given again and again; and it is not for me to say how far that advice may have had an influence in retarding the transactions that have occurred, and which, in point of fact, only took place when it appeared highly improbable that the Austrian Government would be able to maintain itself in Lombardy. There cannot, however, be a doubt that in the present state of the Milanese, the King of Sardinia

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has thought himself justified in entering that part of Europe. That is the fact as it stands now. I am not at all prepared to say whether, in the event of Austria not being able to maintain her hold of her possessions in Lombardy, it would he expedient, or for the general advantage of Europe, that the King of Sardinia should make himself master of that country; but I can confidently say that the movement has been made, not only without the concurrence, but against the advice, of the British Government, and in the face of instructions sent to our representative from this country; which instructions were submitted to the Minister of Austria at this Court, who expressed himself perfectly satisfied with their contents.
LORD STANLEYwas deeply impressed with the propriety of referring as little as possible at the present time, either in that or the other House of Parliament, to what was passing in other countries. But he could not help saying that he had heard with much satisfaction the statement that Her Majesty's Government had thought it their duty to represent to the King of Sardinia their desire that an armed intervention should not take place, and that he should not put himself at the head of any expedition for the invasion of Lombardy. He must at the same time say, that his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) had only taken that course which might have been expected of him, especially considering his long and intimate connexion with foreign affairs; and he had very property taken the opportunity of pointing out to the House and to the country that an example of aggression had been set, which, if followed up by other Powers, might he attended with very dangerous consequences. He believed there was no man either in that or the other House of Parliament who would not recognise the doctrine which had been so freely and fully laid down by Her Majesty's Government, of the right of any nation, in connexion with the sovereign authorities of that nation, to introduce any internal reforms, any modificacation of their constitution, which they should conclude to be for their own national advantage, and that there was no justification for any other nation, from the remote fear of probable consequences, interfering with the internal affairs of that nation with an armed force. But if that doctrine were fully admitted, and if in deference, probably, to their own sense of right and prudence, the Government of
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Austria had abstained from any attempt to interfere with the affairs of Naples, Sardinia, and Sicily, then Austria had shown an example and a regard for the rights of other parties, which might have been expected to save her from an armed invasion on the part of Sardinia. It was a dangerous doctrine to admit the right of any other nation, from sympathy with the supposed grievances and injuries inflicted upon another, to enter it with the avowed object of overthrowing the reigning power. And if there was a country in the world whose essential interest it was to rebut and reject this doctrine as to the right of interference, it was this country, with its widespread and outlying colonial possessions. It of all others, therefore, should most strongly protest against the attempt of any country by foreign force, whether on the part of the Sovereign against the people, or on the part of the people against the Sovereign, to interfere with the internal affairs of other States. He did not understand his noble Friend to have asked Her Majesty's Government to interpose by force, or in any way to assist Austria; but he understood his noble Friend to call their attention to the fact, that amid the universal convulsion of the States of Europe, and admitting the right of all to modify their own constitutions, this was the first instance of carrying out the dangerous doctrine of propagandism, which, if not condemned by the public opinion of Europe, might lead to invasion, by the more powerful and active, of the rights of the lesser Powers; for he believed, that unless it was put down by the general sense of Europe and the civilised world, even the best efforts of Her Majesty's Government, supported as they would be without reference to political feeling, would be utterly unavailing towards preventing the spread of a sanguinary war throughout Europe.

EMIGRATION TO CANADA.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that since the discussion on the Passengers' Bill, he had received an abstract of a Bill relating to the same subject which was now passing-through the Legislature in the province of Canada, which would greatly impede the operation of the Bill which their Lordships had recently passed, unless the Government interfered. At the present moment the tax imposed by Canada upon every adult emigrant was 5s., while the tax imposed by New York was 7s. By the Bill

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which had already passed the House of Assembly in Canada, it was intended to impose a tax of 20 s. upon every emigrant, irrespective of age. After the 30th of September, this charge was to be increased to 30 s., and at a period subsequent to 40 s. It was also required that security should be given against the emigrants becoming chargeable to the colony. He admitted the right of the colony to protect itself against pauperism; but he considered this charge was most exorbitant. The master might relieve himself, indeed, from giving the security, on payment of 20 s. for each passenger imported. The consequence of this Act, if passed, would be, that the stream of emigration to a British province would be checked, and exclusively directed to the United States and other foreign parts. There was another portion of the Bill much more oppressive still. By the fifth section the master of the ship was required to report, on the arrival of his ship in the province, the names and ages of all his passengers, their state of mind, whether they had relatives in the colony capable of supporting them, and various other minute particulars, which it was utterly impossible the master could have any knowledge of; and yet, if he failed in making this report, he was to be subjected to a penalty of 5l. The questions he wished to ask his noble Friend were, first, whether Her Majesty's Government had received similar information to that which had already reached him; if so, secondly, whether it was his intention to place the Bill on the table of their Lordships' House; and, thirdly, whether it was the intention of the Government to counsel Her Majesty to give the Royal Assent to an Act which went to impose so arbitrary a penalty on a portion of Her Majesty's subjects?
EARL GREYhad, since the discussion to which his noble Friend had alluded, received a copy of the Bill mentioned by him from Lord Elgin, who stated that it had already passed the House of Assembly, and that many Members wished to make its provisions much more severe. He (Earl Grey) regretted that some of its provisions should have been proposed; they appeared to him calculated to operate very injuriously indeed upon the interests of the colony, especially the fifth section, which imposed upon the master of the vessel a duty which was totally impossible to be complied with. He also regretted the provision which imposed so large an amount
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as 20 s. a head on account of every man taken to Canada as a guarantee against his becoming chargeable on the colony. Altogether he thought the Bill would operate severely against emigrants from this country. But it was not unnatural that there should be a very strong opinion in Canada upon this subject. The expenses incurred by the colony in relieving the sick and diseased emigrants during the last season amounted to no less than 114,000 l. Of that sum there was recovered by the emigration-tax 15,000 l.; and by a grant made by Parliament last Session, and by advances from the military chest, which had been reimbursed during the present Session, a further sum of 55,000 l. were repaid, making in all 70,000 l.; still the colony had to sustain an expense of no less than 44,000 l. for the relief of these parties. What course it would be necessary to take with reference to that expenditure, it was not in his power at present to say. But what the colonists felt more severely than this charge, was the calamity entailed on the province by the sickness which these unfortunate emigrants carried with them. He was happy to state that the Act was only proposed to last till the end of next year. In answer to his noble Friend he could only say, that until the Bill had been received in the shape of a law, it was impossible to give Her Majesty any advice whatever upon the subject. He, however, intended to send out a despatch to the Governor General, which he hoped would reach him while the Provincial Parliament was still sitting, recommending that some of the most objectionable clauses of the Bill should be reconsidered. The noble Earl concluded by stating that he would lay on the table a copy of the despatch he had received, as well as a copy of the Bill.

RACING "SWEEPS."
LORD LYTTELTON, after expressing an opinion that the lotteries called racing "sweeps," held at public-houses all over the country were illegal, asked whether the Government meant to adopt any measure for their prevention?
The EARL of EGLINTOUNdeprecated interference with this subject on the part of the Government. Why have one rule for public-houses and another for clubhouses? Horse-racing might be termed the national amusement of England, and it would be hard to prevent the humbler classes from interesting themselves in a

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sport which obtained direct encouragement from the Government. After all, the evils arising from "sweeps" were much exaggerated.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas not prepared to announce the intention of the Government to take any proceedings upon the subject.
House adjourned.