LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition 1005 from the Lord Provost, the Magistrates, and the Town Council—the corporation in fact—of Glasgow, complaining of the distressing effects produced by the great influx of Irish poor into that city, and praying the enactment of a Poor Law for Ireland. He (Lord Brougham) held in his hand a communication from the magistrates of Liverpool on a similar subject, in which it was stated that the influx of these miserable persons from Ireland on three following days was as follows:—Wednesday, 1778; Thursday, 1681; Friday, 1636. That was to say, an average of from 1,600 to 1,700 daily. The consequence of this influx of distress was disease; many cases of typhus fever had broken out in the borough, and among others who died of it was the relieving officer, after an illness of only forty-eight hours. He had also received communications from respectable persons in Ireland, whose names he thought it prudent to conceal at that moment, in which complaint was made of the great misery suffered by the poor in that country, and the utterly inadequate assistance which they had received from those who ought to be the first to afford it. While England was under the pressure of the Queen's Letter—the operation of Her Majesty's Missive—and under the instigation of those eloquent men who preached charity sermons in every place—also acting, he was bound to say, on the impulse of the benevolent feelings of her inhabitants, many of whom gave much more than they were able, perhaps, to afford—he was very sorry to say that the same feelings did not prevail in all parts of the empire. In some districts of one part of the empire—he did not say in all—they did not seem to prevail. In one district, for instance, where the non-resident proprietors had a rental of 25,587l., upon the most pressing appeals that could be made to them, they only contributed 208l., or 2d. in the pound on the rental. There was another case, in the union in the county of Cork, where the population was 7,000 Catholics, and five Protestant families with four Protestant rectors. A dignitary of the Church in this union, and drawing 450l. a year from it, was applied to, and he sent a donation of 1l. The committee, no doubt "thankful for small mercies," were very much obliged to him; and, small as it was, it was something better than 2d. in the pound; but still, thinking that it might be a mistake, the secretary wrote to that rev. gentleman on the subject. It was, however, no mis- 1006 take—he would give no more; although the district from which he derived his annual 450l. was one that abounded in paupers. There was another parish with a population of 3,000 inhabitants, of which three-fourths were paupers employed on the public works, where all the landlords were absentees, with the exception of one who farmed his own land, and who had evicted from his estates, not two years ago, nearly 400 persons. From none of these landlords were the committee able to extract anything but 20l. from one who owned land in the parish of the value of 1,200l. a year. Another of these same landlords, a wealthy barrister of Dublin, drawing 500l. a year from the parish, gave no answer whatever to an application made to him by the relief committee, although a great number of paupers from his property were supported on the public works. In an adjoining parish, a landlord with a rental of 2,000l. a year gave nothing, though a great many paupers had been very lately made by the eviction of 400 persons, in the process of what was called clearing his estate. In a third parish, a barrister who had purchased an estate for 7,000l., gave nothing. Not alone that, but he would not grant a site for a school-house, for the erection of which 130l. had been bequeathed some eight years since, until very lately he had leased them a quarter of an acre of land at 6l. per annum. Very charitable that! His wife, who was the daughter of a general officer, not satisfied with the price her husband had obtained for the quarter of an acre of land, insisted upon it, as one of the conditions of granting that site, that 20l. of the 130l. should be paid as a sort of fine to herself, that she might therewith establish a school for the education of the children of her own tenants, in her own manner. Every one had, he admitted, a clear and undoubted right to subscribe to the relief of the poor or not, as they chose; and no person had a right to complain of them if they did not. One exception there was, however—namely, when ten millions were given by this country for the support of the Irish poor, and large sums besides sent to Ireland in private charity, the people of England had a right to expect that those who assisted to create the pauperism of their own country should aid in its support. He had another statement to make relating to a place called Ballina, in respect to which what he said the other night had so excited the indignation of his noble Friend. He had endeavoured, on 1007 that occasion, to connect the poverty which inundated the ports of England with the legal processes now carried on in that country; and he was told he knew nothing about it. A gentleman who was engaged in the matter, and who knew everything about it, informed him that in the quarter-sessions held at Ballina, in the barony of Tyrawley and the county of Mayo, on the 11th January last, there were set down for trial from 1,500 to 2,000 civil-bill processes, at the suit of from 16 to 18 landlords, for rent ending and due on the 1st of the November preceding, for the use and occupation of tenants to the same period, and for the recovery of conacre agreements. In Ireland the landlords had the power of levying a distress upon the goods and chattels of the tenant for rent; and such processes as those before the barrister, which involved personal attachment, were perfectly novel in that country. In ordinary years, the landlords did not collect their rents through the medium of barristers' courts; neither did they demand the November rent until the following March. This year the tenants had no goods or chattels—the moment was therefore favourable to the landlords for frightening the poor people, and effecting the clearance of their estates; therefore they insisted on proceeding in the assistant barristers' courts against them, and obtaining a decree for attaching their persons. Who could doubt that these processes had connexion with the mass of pauperism from Ireland, thrown upon the shores of England, and incumbering Liverpool and other seaport towns? His informant went on to say—
The people, already distracted and panic-struck by the loss of their potato crop, and fearing the land would not in future produce a similar crop, seeing also the impossibility of settling peaceably with landlords, who were determined to have the pound of flesh, yielded to their fates amidst the wailings and weepings of their starving and wretched families. If they even held out, they had neither money nor seed to till the land, and they feared that holding out, the landlords might endeavour to prevent their getting on the public works, now become their last refuge for a lingering existence. Many of the people fled before the processes were entered for trial, and more of them subsequently gave up their holdings. Thus the calculations of the landlords that these processes would have all the efficacy of ejectments were realised, and their object of clearing their lands of what they term a surplus population is, with cruel ingenuity, being accomplished; and to what extent may be judged by the statement of the Rev. Mr. Nary, parish priest of Lucken, in the barony of Tyrawley, and county of Mayo. He says, that in the month of September last he 1008 had in his parish 1,000 families; that from the combined causes of flight, starvation, and pestilence, he has now but 500 families: that of the latter number not more than 30 families have sufficient means to enable them to make a sowing; and that from the operation of the same causes—namely, starvation, pestilence, and flight, he is confident that of the 1,000 families, or 5,500 souls, in his parish last September, there won't remain on the 1st of August next more than 200 souls. I have already stated that there were from 1,500 to 2,000 of these processes entered for trial. There must, however, be double that number issued against the people; for such of them that fled or surrendered to their landlords' wishes previous to the first day of the sessions—that is, the 11th of January—against all these no processes were entered for trial. So that the total number of processes issued must be 4,000, which number involved the fate of 22,000 human beings. The people, thus frightened and hunted from their holdings like beasts from the field, will, for the most part, be shortly in eternity. It rarely happens that more than one of a family gets on the public works, and the work done by one half-starved man will not produce more than 8d. or 10d. per day. At the present price of provisions, this would be little enough, and too little, for one man; yet he must divide it with his perishing family. I leave you to judge whether this state of things will not further the work of death fast enough. Even the soup-kitchens, which give some temporary relief to several persons, hurry others to their coffinless graves, dysentery prevailing to a great extent here; and those having it, taking soup and glad to get it, go off faster than others.He was not at liberty to mention the name of his informant; but a connexion of his had called upon him with that letter, and said that he knew the writer perfectly. He ought to mention that he had received another account of a most grievous nature from Skibbereen, also containing a statement of great abuses in that district. He was informed that great sums of money had been poured into Sikbbereen, and persons had flocked there from other localities to benefit from it, and that not merely poor persons, but persons who had no claim whatever to relief on the ground of destitution. All this made good the alarm he had expressed from the first, and his assertion that they could not carry on a system of this kind without great abuses, unless they were not only omniscient, but omnipresent and omnipotent also. It thus appeared that some persons were thriving, while others were distressed, which perhaps accounted for the contradictory statements they heard on these subjects. It reminded him of Home Tooke's reply to Mr. Canning, when he said, "He did not perceive that the vessel of the State was sinking." "Very likely not," said Mr. Tooke, "for you are rising all the time, and, 1009 therefore, you do not perceive it." A correspondent from Sligo had written to him to say that in his previous statements to their Lordships he had much understated the facts (which of course he had wished to do), respecting the relatives of magistrates and clergymen being employed at the public works. His correspondent mentioned a clergyman, two of whose sons were paid clerks. He stated also that four sons of Mr. J. Ormsby, a magistrate, and grand juror of the district, had seven paid situations amongst them. The eldest son was a barony constable, an officer whose duty it was to collect the county cess.
§ The EARL of DEVONThat appointment is under the Grand Jury Cess Act.
LORD BROUGHAMHe is also a paid clerk under the Board of Works. The second son is stated to be a contractor, and also a county constable; the third son, to be private secretary to Captain Gilbert, of the Board of Works; and the fourth son, to hold some subordinate situation in the same department. It is stated, also, that the eldest son of a gentleman of great wealth, and the heir to his property, is a paid clerk under the Board of Works; and, in fact, that there is scarcely a person employed in a lucrative situation who is unconnected with the landowners of the district. He admitted these statements were more showy than substantial; but they were useful, and he mentioned them to show that his previous statements were not without foundation.
§ The EARL of DEVONSecurities being required, they must take responsible persons.
LORD BROUGHAMYes, yes. But these things must come to an end; and his fear was that they would not come to an end this year or the next; and that if they did not look closely after the distribution of the public money, and prevent its being turned into wrong channels, they would never come to an end at all. The ten millions sent this year would only make them more anxious for ten millions more; and thus it would go on until it could go no further. He must say also that there appeared to be an extraordinary degree of supineness in the districts from which these accounts proceeded, and that the inhabitants did not appear to exert themselves in the way in which they would exert themselves under similar circumstances in any part of England or Scotland. His fear, therefore, was, that if we went on showing these people that while they did nothing 1010 we would do something, and that if they neglected their duty we would do it for them—we should only be encouraging them to do nothing, while we were doing, perhaps, more than we ought to do.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELsaid, he thought the noble and learned Lord was not justified in making such statements upon anonymous authority, since it must be manifest the degree of credit to be attached to them depended solely upon the credibility of the noble and learned Lord's correspondents. As to the statement that one individual in the county of Cork had turned 400 persons off his states, he must say he was not satisfied that such an occurrence had taken place; for he was convinced, unless it occurred very recently, that he must have heard of it. With respect to the statement of the small sum of money subscribed by the Irish landlords, all he knew was, that in those parts of the county of Cork he was acquainted with, the landlords had come forward most generously, and, though much impoverished themselves for want of their rents, had done all in their power to relieve their suffering dependants. He thought also that where it was otherwise, it was mainly occasioned by the landlords being deeply indebted, and obliged to pay the little money they did receive from their lands to satisfy the bonds and mortgages of their creditors.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he could not satisfy the noble Lord. When he gave neither the names of persons, parish, nor correspondent, the noble Lord complained that he suppressed the names; but the noble Lord only complained the more when he gave the names of persons and parish. Now in the latter case, where he had given the names of persons and parish, he would give the name of his correspondent. The gentleman from whom he had received his information respecting the parties whose sons were employed upon the public works, was Mr. Edward Howe Verdon, proprietor of the Sligo Champion, who had made similar statements publicly in his paper, and who now had privately given to him more detailed information. In the other cases, however, as he had not given the name of a single person, he should withhold the name of the rev. gentleman who was his correspondent.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYsaid, he thought the noble and learned Lord was not justified in making such attacks upon the Irish landlords, especially since all the inquiries that had been made re- 1011 specting former statements of a similar character, proved that the landlords were not so much to blame as had been represented. As to the statement that their subscriptions were unworthy of their large possessions, the noble and learned Lord did not seem to know the situation in which these persons were. In addition to the arrangements they had to make for the well-being of their estates, every charge upon the estates had to be paid first out of their rents. They must be just before they were generous. He had no objection to state how the case stood respecting himself, and he knew that many landlords were in a similar predicament. He and the landowners in the county of Down had determined not to hold presentment sessions, or to apply to the Government for loans of money, but to employ the poor of the district on their own property, and thus save them from destitution. They had thus saved that part from the calamities that were afflicting other parts of the country; and he therefore thought it unjustifiable that the noble Lord should run them down with other Irish landlords without distinction. Then, again, there was a great influx of population into the county of Down from other parts, especially into the towns, which he admitted they had endeavoured to discourage, for he thought, while they were doing all they could to save their own poor from starvation, they ought not to be burdened with the poor of other districts, which were equally able to support them. It was all very well for the noble and learned Lord to make his eloquent statements in their Lordships' House; but the noble and learned Lord should rather move for a Select Committee to inquire into the conduct of the Irish landlords, if he believed the various rumours prevalent respecting it. The noble and learned Lord, perhaps, had been reading The Times newspaper; but the statements on the subject which had appeared in The Times were most fallacious. The most monstrous statements that had ever been made, had appeared in that journal, having reference to the county Antrim, in which it had been said that the tenants generally had actually stated to their landlords, that unless their rents were immediately reduced, they were determined not to pay any rents. He had been in Ireland at the time that statement had appeared, and, in order to ascertain if it were true, he had applied to Lord O'Neil, who was a constant resident in Ireland; and that noble Lord, 1012 as well as other resident gentlemen, had informed him—had all of them informed him—that they had never heard one word of the kind from the tenants. He then wrote to The Times, to know on what grounds they had made that declaration; but they did not state the grounds to him. He must say now, that the noble and learned Lord was going upon the very same principle, and was running down the Irish landlords in a manner which did little good to the country, and very little credit to himself.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that a more extraordinary charge than that which the noble and gallant Marquess had just preferred against him, he had never heard, even in these times of exaggerated charges. He denied that he had made a general attack upon the Irish landlords, or that he was running them down. He had begun the statement he had made, by saying that what it referred to was an exception to the conduct of the landlords; and he had also said, that his observations did not apply at all to the noble and gallant Marquess; for he know that he had contributed to the relief of the distress of his fellow-countrymen.