Lords Sitting of 4 June 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Stirling, and Glasgow, for the Repeal of the Bank Charter Act—By Lord Faversham, from Guardians of the Wakefield Union, for the Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—From Clayton West, and several other places, in favour of the Factories Bill.—By the Bishop of Oxford, from Clergy of Berks, and several other places, in favour of the Clergy Offences Act; and from Hastings, and Cambridge, for the Adoption of Measures for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution. — By the Marquess of Normanby, from Worcester, and several other places, for the Enactment of Sanitary Regulations.—From Ministers and Elders of the Presbytery of Dumbarton, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors.—From Bradford, in favour of the Government Plan of Education.

IRISH EMIGRATION.
LORD MONTEAGLErose to move for the appointment of a Select Committee,

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on colonisation from Ireland, of which he had given notice. It was impossible to exaggerate the importance of the subject; it was one which, if properly carried out, would, in his opinion, be of incalculable benefit to that country as well as to Great Britain and to the colonies. He might perhaps be blamed for bringing forward a measure of such magnitude and importance at the present late period of the Session; but their Lordships would remember that he had given his notice many weeks back, and had postponed it, because he feared his motive might have been mistaken or misinterpreted, if he had sought to bring on his discussion pending their Lordships' deliberation on that most important measure, the Irish Poor Law. He did not propose emigration as a substitute for that Bill; still less did he seek to arrest the progress of the Poor Law by the Parliamentary tactics of interposing irrelevant matter. It was his own sincere conviction that a large measure of emigration was required in order to render the working of the Poor Law safe, or even practicable. But it was also expedient taken per se. Long before Parliament had lent any countenance to a Poor Law for Ireland—long before the out-door relief of the able-bodied had met with any acceptance—he had supported the necessity of applying a large measure of colonisation to the then existing state of things in Ireland. Nor did he stand alone in this opinion. He would prove to their Lordships that it had been repeatedly laid down by some of the most practical and eminent Parliamentary authorities, that it was essential to the success of any poor-law experiment in Ireland that a system of colonisation should be combined with it. It was also laid down that the measure was in itself wise and politic. The question was one which he brought forward in no spirit of hostility to the Government. It had never been so considered in former times. In Lord Liverpool's Government, a Motion like the present had not been considered as an attack on the Administration; nor yet under the Government of the Duke of Wellington. Like the Poor Law, it was considered neutral ground, on which all could meet in discussion who wished to improve the condition of the people. The Colonial Office ought not to take offence. While he had every reliance on the intentions of the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Office, he did not feel equally confident that there existed within that
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department the full power of working out those practical details by which the question was encumbered. It was not possible that they could do so. Burdened as they were with business, having to deal with a population of between five and six millions of people, speaking different languages, obedient to different systems of law, overworked as they were, and undermanned, it was but natural that a question not immediately arising out of the ordinary and diurnal affairs of the Colonial Office should be undervalued or set aside. Besides which, the bearing of colonisation on home interests scarcely came within their range of duty. He would endeavour to avoid taking any course on the present occasion which could raise exaggerated expectations in the minds of parties out of doors, regarding the extent to which colonisation could safely be carried, or the amount of benefit which could be reaped from it. But, although it might not be wise to exaggerate these expectations, it was both wise and the duty of Parliament to see that emigration, on whatever scale it might be conducted, was conducted prudently and successfully. Whatever views he might entertain on the subject of emigration, he did not dream of recommending any thing to supersede the system of voluntary emigration which had been carried on, and was now in progress on a scale and to an extent which, a few years ago, would have been deemed incredible. Between the years 1825 and 1846, no fewer than 1,479,000 persons had emigrated from the United Kingdom to the British colonies and to the United States of America. In a great majority of instances, this emigration had been equally to the benefit of the mother country, of the colony, and of the emigrants themselves, But various and very important considerations suggested themselves as arising out of the peculiarities of this vast emigration. Out of the enormous amount which he had mentioned, he found that nearly one-half of the emigrants had settled in the United States of America. The question immediately arose, What was the cause that led so great a proportion of British emigrants to settle in a foreign country, under a foreign Government, in preference to fixing their destinies within the colonial possessions of our own empire? He believed that there were reasons discoverable to account for this course of proceeding—assignable motives, which a great and enlightened system of colonisation was perfectly capa-

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ble of removing. Nor was the question to be determined exclusively one between our colonies and the United States. A further and a still more important question remained to be considered—a question all-important to this part of the United Kingdom. Emigration was now absolutely demanded by the present distressed state of the Irish population; and the question was simply, whether that stream of emigration ought to be directed to the shores of this country, or towards our colonial possessions? The tendency to immigration to this country on the part of the Irish people must undoubtedly continue till their condition was raised to the level of that of their English neighbours, or till a colonial emigration were encouraged. Let the population of both countries be placed upon a level, and from that moment a stop would be put to an immigration from Ireland which now threatened to destroy the comforts of the working population of England. The truth and importance of this proposition did not rest wholly on his authority; it was laid down, as an undeniable fact, in one of the late Mr. Wilmot Horton's excellent reports. In 1826 a Committee of the House of Commons reported as follows:—
"The question of emigration from Ireland has been decided by the population itself. What remains is the question whether emigration shall be turned to the improvement of the colonies, or allowed to take what must otherwise be its inevitable course, to deluge Great Britain with poverty and wretchedness, and gradually, hut certainly, to equalize the state of the English and Irish poor. One of two results appears inevitable; the Irish population must be raised towards the standard of the English, or the English depressed towards the Irish. The question whether an extensive plan of emigration shall or shall not be adopted resolves itself into the single point, whether the wheat-fed population of Great Britain shall or shall not be supplanted by the potato-fed population of Ireland."
This, which was true in 1826, was equally true at the present day. Indeed the existing calamity rendered it still more evident. Neither was Mr. Wilmot Horton's report the only authority on which he was enabled to rely. The same question had again, at a subsequent period, been made a subject of Parliamentary inquiry. In the Report on the State of Ireland in 1830 was to be found the following passage:—
"Emigration, as a remedial measure, is more applicable to Ireland than to any other part of the empire. The main cause which produces the influx of Irish labourers into Great Britain is undoubtedly the higher rate of wages which prevails
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in one island than in the other. Emigration from Great Britain, if effectual as a remedy, must tend to raise the rate of wages here, and thus to increase the emigration of Irish labourers. Colonisation, on the contrary, by raising the rate of wages in the latter country, diminishes the inducement, and lessons the number of Irish labourers in the British market."
The subject of emigration was specifically introduced into the House of Commons by his noble Friend the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, when acting on behalf of Lord Grey's Government in 1830. The measures introduced, and the discussions which had taken place in 1831, fully proved how unanimous was the opinion entertained in Parliament of the necessity of accompanying any Poor Law for Ireland with a large and well-arranged system of colonisation. In 1831 the noble Lord now at the head of the Colonial Department expressed himself as follows:—
"Before any measure could be introduced for the permanent relief of the poor in Ireland, it would be absolutely necessary to relieve that country from its superabundance of population. … The transfer of a part of our superabundant labourers to the colonies would be equally beneficial to all parties: to the labourer, by diminishing the overwhelming competition under which he now suffered; to the settler in the colonies, by affording him the means of more effectually cultivating his land; and both to this country and the colony, by relieving much of the distress now existing in the former, and by adding to the productive industry of the latter."
The noble Lord was supported in these views by the gallant Officer who had preceded him in the Colonial Office, and in support of his argument he was fortified by the evidence of Sir George Murray, who in. the same debate had stated that—
"He believed that emigration was the best mode of relieving distress at home, and of giving the overplus of population a facility of transfer to another country, where he was certain they could establish themselves in comfort and independence, and secure to their descendants prosperity and happiness."
His next authority was one which he was sure would carry with it the greatest weight. It was that of Lord Ashburton, who, as well acquainted with colonial as with British interests, expressed himself in 1831 to the following effect:—
"He thought that the future welfare of this country, and of her labouring population, depended on the solution of the question of emigration. … It was said that the poor should be left to emigrate if they thought fit. The answer was, that the poor, if left to themselves, could not emigrate. They had not the means to go across the Atlantic, however anxious they might be to escape from pauperism here to wealth and independence in America."

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Nor were these opinions abandoned in later times. On the contrary, they wore repeated and confirmed with the weight derived from further study and additional experience. Upon the occasion of Mr. Charles Buller's Motion upon this subject, in 1843, he found the noble Lord now at the head of the Colonial Department thus expressing himself:—
"His opinion was strongly fixed that we were, it is true, on the right road, but that we had not made all the progress that was desirable. … He thought it of the greatest importance that emigration should be encouraged to a much greater extent than at present; he believed it was in the power of Her Majesty's Ministers to take measures that would give much greater extension to the system than it now possessed. Further inquiry on the subject, however conducted, could not be without great advantage—the inquiries of a Committee had already been productive of great advantage… Further inquiry by Committee or a Commission might be advantageous with a view to the selection of the most effectual means of giving increased vigour and extension to the existing system."
The evidence to which he had hitherto referred bore on the question of emigration generally; but there was evidence equally strong, and applicable specially to Ireland. The Poor Law Commission, over which his most rev. Friend (the Archbishop of Dublin) presided, had not overlooked this question. He begged permission to read the following passage from the Third Report of the Poor Law Commissioners:—
"While we feel that relief should be provided for the impotent, we consider it due to the community, and to the labouring class in particular, that such of the able-bodied as may be unable to find employment should he secured support only through emigration, or as a preliminary to it. It is thus only that the market of labour can he relieved from the weight that is upon it, or the labourer be raised from his present prostrate state. Nor can we hope in the meanwhile to see such content, peace, and order established, as can alone encourage enterprise, or draw the capital of England to those commercial enterprises for which Ireland, if pacified, would afford so wide a field."
If he were not fearful of delaying their Lordships further, he would refer to the authority of Mr. George Nicholls, of Mr. Senior, and of Mr. Cornwall Lewis, which was equally strong, and to the same effect. He had thus exhibited one chain of evidence unbroken during twenty years. Or the part of every one, statesman or philosopher, who had considered the question, he had shown a concurrence in the same conclusion, namely, the adoption and recommendation of systematic colonisation as a remedial measure of practical urgency. Nor were colonial authorities of
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great weight wanting. In 1839, Lord Durham expressed himself as follows:—
"It is far from my purpose to discourage emigration to the North American colonies. On the contrary, I am satisfied that the chief value of those colonies to the mother country consists in their presenting a field where millions, even of those who are distressed at home, might be established in plenty and happiness. All the witnesses whose evidence I have quoted, are warm advocates of systematic emigration. I object, along with them, only to such emigration as now takes place without forethought, preparation, method, or system of any kind."
Lord Sydenham entertained, generally speaking, similar opinions. In his despatch to Lord John Russell, in 1841, he stated that—
"Emigration, during the last year has greatly exceeded that of the last few years. The emigrants appear to have been universally well con-ducted, and several of them are possessed of considerable property. The great bulk have settled in these provinces, and there 4s every reason to expect that they will do well. … Emigration to America, however, holds out no brilliant prospects of rapid affluence; but, at the same time, it is secure, under proper management, from the risk of equally rapid failure. It is no lottery with a few exorbitant prizes, but a secure and certain investment, in which a prudent and sensible man may safely embark. It may be affirmed, that no industrious man ever failed, on this continent, to make an easy livelihood by his labour; that no capitalist with a fair share of agricultural knowledge, who has chosen to invest his money in purchase of land, has had reason to complain of insufficient return. Almost any labourer, with good conduct and perseverance, may in a few years become a landholder. These are results of perseverance, industry, and steadiness."
It was in the spirit of these opinions, and of these recommendations, that he brought forward his present Motion for a Committee upon the subject. He had submitted to their Lordships a series of precedents, in favour of which would be found the authority of Members of both sides of the House; for the question was one which had fortunately never been mixed up with party consideration or party distinctions. Another branch of the subject remained to be considered; and he would now proceed to state further grounds on which he thought that the House was bound to consider the question with peculiar earnestness, at the present time. Had there been no failure in the potato crop—were they now in the same position in which they had stood three years ago—he believed that their Lordships could hardly fail to honour with their support the Motion he submitted for their adoption. But how did the case actually stand? There was not one argument which he had heretofore used, there

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was not one authority on which he relied, that did not apply, à multo fortiori, to the present calamitous state of things. Let him illustrate his meaning by a very simple supposition. Were they suddenly to see a population augmenting in any definite proportion, or the food of a population decreasing in the same ratio, what would be the natural result? Suppose the diminution which had actually taken place in food to amount to a loss of one-fourth of the supply, the effect would practically he the same as if the population to be fed had increased by one-fourth. In such a juncture, the providing of a larger territory from which the supply of food was in future to he drawn, would be the natural remedy; and the readiest way in which that object could be effected was undoubtedly by emigration and colonisation. No doubt this process was going forward at present; but could their Lordships or the public rely on mere private and voluntary emigration as a means of escape from the difficulties with which they were now beset? He believed that they could not. He would go further, and say, that in his opinion emigration, as it was now conducted, so far from solving present difficulties, tended to augment them. It was full of danger. It was stated that in different districts of Ireland the greater proportion of the emigration which had gone on had been from the class of the employers, rather than from that of the employed, and had not produced any effect, either in increasing the market for labour, or in lessening the competition for land. He was far from saying that it would be a wise, or a just, or a prudent course to "shovel out pauper emigrants" from Ireland on the shores of our colonial possessions. At the same time, he must impress upon the minds of their Lordships, that, if they wished to promote the well-being of Ireland, emigration must not be confined to those who displaced more capital than they removed numbers. If parties, by selling their farms, could, with the money they received, improve their condition in any of our colonies, let them by all means do so; but let not emigration be restricted to that class, neither let their Lordships take it for granted, with some reasoners, that emigration was required throughout all Ireland, or was required universally in the same degree. No two countries could differ more completely than many districts of Ireland differed from each other. The remedy which might be indispensable
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at Glenties in Donegal, where a population of 43,000 resided on an area valued at 16,000 l, could not determine the case of Dunshaughlin, where the population was hut 20,000 on a rated valuation of 118,000 l. In the latter case it could not he held that emigration was more necessary, as a remedy, than in the most improved parts of England. There were also other districts in which it was not required; then let not their Lordships he alarmed at the supposed necessity of a gigantic emigration, displacing 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of people, at an expense of 13,000,000 l or 14,000,000 l. That, at least, was not his proposition. It is not a positive but a relative number that should be removed; not the actual population residing on a given area, but the portion of that population which was proved to be in excess. A very small excess of labour will beat down wages throughout a large district; the removal of that excess will raise the condition of the entire class of labourers. Emigration will also be found to contain within itself a self-adjusting principle of correction; it will only come into play to the extent and where it is actually required. This principle is strikingly illustrated by the English emigration under the Poor Law. This emigration had, from June 1835 to December 1845 amounted to 13,526 persons, and had been carried on at a cost of 81,182 l. Of these emigrants, 4,888 persons were sent out from the county of Norfolk alone in one year, at a cost of 15,198 l.; and of the whole number, 10,686 persons were sent from the four counties of Norfolk, Kent, Sussex, and Suffolk. These four counties had only a population of 1,400,000 persons; while in the counties of Westmoreland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancaster, and Stafford, with a population of 2,740,000, not one emigrant was sent out; and only fifty-two persons had emigrated from Yorkshire, containing a population of 1,600,000 persons. He had now been speaking of emigration by rates; but he could not say that he anticipated that in Ireland the result would be quite so varied and contrasted; indeed, he apprehended that, generally speaking, the numbers who went out would more nearly approach the quota furnished by the county of Norfolk than the return presented by the counties of Northumberland and Westmoreland. Upon an inspection, however, of the papers upon their Lordships' Table, the same elements of inequality would appear in reference to Ireland. In some unions, the en-

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tire valued rental would only furnish 6s. 8d. a head annually to the entire population; in other cases, the proportion would be, not 6s. 8d., but 6l., or eighteen times that amount. Comparing Kildare and Meath with Donegal, Mayo, and Sligo, it would be seen that the case of each county was totally different. In Ireland there was a general feeling in favour of emigration. However persons might differ on other subjects, he could assure their Lordships there was not the slightest difference on that question. Those who had gone abroad had sent home the most encouraging reports of the success which had attended them; and they all urged their friends in Ireland to strain every nerve to come out also. Their Lordships should be aware that, when an emigrant was settled in the colonies, he became the nucleus of future emigration, and not only encouraged his friends to come out, but sent remittances to assist them. That fact was stated in so many public documents, that it was hardly necessary for him to repeat it. The people in Ireland were truly anxious to get out to the colonies; and, as a proof of that, he would refer to a letter upon which he had fallen by accident, among the Parliamentary papers distributed this morning, which appeared to him to be so touching and so conclusive on the subject, that he would take the liberty of entreating their Lordships' attention to it. It was dated from Ardinglass, 6th September, 1846, and it ran as follows:—
"Pen cannot distate the poverty of this country at present. The potato crop is quite done away all over Ireland, and we are told prevailing all over Europe. There is nothing expected here, only an immediate famine; the labouring classes getting only two stone (a mistake for "pounds") of Indian meal for each day's labour, and only three days given out of each week, to prolong a little money sent out by the Government—to keep the people from going out to the fields—to prevent slaughtering the cattle, which they are threatening very hard they will do before they starve. Pity our hard case, and do not leave us on the number of the starving poor; and if it be your wish to keep us, at any labour you wish to put us to, we will feel happy in doing so. If you knew what hunger we and our fellow countrymen are suffering, if you were over so much distressed, you would take us out of this poverty-stricken isle. We can only say, the scourge of God fell down on Ireland in taking away the potatoes; they have been the only support of the people, not like countries that have a supply of wheat and other grain. Those that have oats they have some chance, for they say they will die before they part with any of it to pay rent. So the landlord is in a bad way too. The Lord is merciful; he fed the 5,000 men with five loaves and two small fishes. For God's sake, take us
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out of poverty, and don't let us die with the hunger!"
He considered that a well-regulated system of emigration must be so great a benefit to Ireland, that the resources of that country itself ought to be held bound to furnish a reasonable portion of the cost of that benefit; and he must say that, among the landlords and gentry of Ireland, he had never found any reluctance or any difference of opinion on that subject. If the land of Ireland was greatly benefited by the removal of a portion of the people, whose condition was also improved by the removal, it was but right to look for a just proportion of assistance from the land so benefited. Supposing, then, that funds were provided, he admitted that he was bound to prove, before emigrants were sent out, that this could be done without any disadvantage to the colonies themselves. This, be felt confident, might readily and conclusively be proved. He believed that the advantages to the colonies would be found equally great with the advantages to Ireland. He was rejoiced to perceive that his noble Friend the Secretary of State contemplated the employment of emigrants upon colonial public works; he believed that by doing so the colonies themselves would be improved to an incalculable extent, and at the same time Ireland freed from its surplus population. It was also most certain that in the colony this emigrant population would become large consumers of British manufactures. He begged to direct their Lordships' attention to the fact, that of 1,400,000 emigrants, who had left this country, 700,000 went to the United States. The reason was, that in the United States there had been progress made throughout the Union; whilst, on the contrary, in the North American provinces there had been, in too many cases, torpor and inactivity. Lord Durham stated in his report—
"On the American side all is activity. The forest has been widely cleared; every year settlements are formed, and thousands of farms created out of the waste; the country is intersected by common roads, canals and railroads are finished, and the ways of communication and transport are crowded with people, carriages, and steamboats. Good houses, warehouses, mills, inns, villages, and even great cities, are seen almost to spring out of the desert. Every village has its school-house and place of worship. On the British side of the line, with the exception of a few favoured spots, where some approach to American prosperity is apparent, all seems waste and desolate. That painful truth is manifest in the country districts for 1,000 miles"

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Now the Irish and the English emigrants naturally turned to the country where they could find the surest market for labour; and the capitalist was attracted to the country where he could get the best return for his money. Let it not be supposed that the United States had greater natural advantages than British America; Lord Durham expressly stated in his report, that whatever might be the natural fertility of the United States, it was far surpassed by that of our North American provinces. He did not think the fact that the crown had parted with the land would be found any very great impediment in their way, because the emigrants might be employed on public works to the great advantage of the colonies, the labourers, and the mother country, and thus colonial co-operation would be secured. He must remind their Lordships that the colonial trade which originated in emigration was an intercourse in which no foreign jealousies were to be apprehended, nor any hostile tariffs; but, on the contrary, the advantages to be derived from mutual trading between the mother country and her colonies were so clear and distinct, that it was obvious that every step that was taken was one of progress and profit to both parties. He would only say, before he sat down, that he was far from confining his attention to our colonies in British North America. The Australian colonies presented an almost unlimited field for colonisation, and an encouraging example of successful enterprise. He knew that those colonies, and especially South Australia, had found difficulties to contend with, and what might almost be considered an escape from bankruptcy; but at the same time it appeared that upwards of one million sterling had already been spent in the purchase of land, and that between 50,000 and 60,000 emigrants had been removed to the colony, and were now placed in a condition of comfort and content. As he was convinced that the pressure upon Ireland would not cease with the present year, and as he had not the remotest expectation that the measures of the Government would strike at the root of that distress, he hoped that some largo measure of colonisation, wisely adopted and practically applied, might be devised to effect that object. He felt confident that a system of colonisation, undertaken on a large but not an ill-considered seale—not applied to the whole of the country, but to parts of it—not dealing with millions, but with such numbers as
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would afford relief where the population was in excess—would be, not indeed, a specific remedy, but a remedy without which every other attempt to meet the difficulties of Ireland would be ineffectual and unavailing. On these grounds, he would move their Lordships—
"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider what means of colonisation may be best adopted for the purpose of improving the social condition of Ireland, and by which the interests of the colonies themselves may be advanced, and the comfort and prosperity of those who emigrate may be promoted."
EARL GREYsaid, that as it was not his intention to object to the present Motion, he need trouble their Lordships only for a short time whilst he stated the ground of his acquiescence, and noticed some of the points in the noble Lord's speech. In the first place, he did not acquiesce in the appointment of this Committee under any expectation of being able to succeed in what none of the able persons who had turned their attention to the subject had accomplished, in devising any new and ingenious scheme by which a large portion of the population of Ireland could be transported without difficulty or inconvenience to North America, and be there placed at once in a situation of comfort and convenience. He entertained no such expectations. On the contrary, the main motive for his acquiescing in the present Motion was, because he trusted the result of the inquiry would be to disabuse men's minds of a dangerous error, that to the greatest extent emigration could be made useful; though when confined to its proper object he (Earl Grey), for one, attached the highest importance to colonisation. He thought that, properly applied, it was a great advantage to the emigrants themselves, to the colonies, and lastly to the mother country. He cordially concurred in that opinion; but at the same time it would be impossible to make any great and immediate impression on the numbers of the population in England and Wales, or at once seriously to diminish the pressure of destitution in Ireland which so unhappily existed. He looked, however, with some apprehension to the notions prevalent on this subject. His noble Friend had disclaimed any of these extravagant ideas; but he could not forget, that very recently a memorial had been presented to the Government, signed by a great number of noble Lords and gentlemen, including many Members of Parliament connected

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with Ireland, stating deliberately that unless 2,000,000 of the population were removed from Ireland, during the next three or four years, no benefit would accrue to that country; and that, if this were not done, what was going on was only adding sparks to the fire. It was startling to see such doctrines put forward, not merely by individual writers, but by a large number of noblemen and gentlemen, united without respect to party, and pressed on the Government with no common ingenuity or perseverance. It was true that the scheme had been in a great degree abandoned. The deputation who waited on the Government said they were formally authorized to say that if the measure were rejected, it would be brought before the other House of Parliament by a noble Earl; but it appeared, when the Motion was actually brought forward, that this great scheme, which had been got up with infinite pains, had been repudiated with the utmost anxiety by each of the parties who took part in the debate. The noble Earl, who made the Motion, caused it to be distinctly understood, that he had nothing to do with the scheme; and of the vast array of Members of Parliament who had signed the memorial, when the measure came to be discussed before Parliament, not one was found to come forward and say that in his opinion such a measure ought to be adopted; in fact, the measure was utterly repudiated. Such being the way in which this great project had been treated, far be it from him to detain their Lordships upon it; let it slumber upon dusty shelves, or be consigned to that limbo for visionary and impracticable projects which the poets told them was assigned for all such. At the same time he did not object to a Committee; there still evidently remained in the minds of some a notion that some plan might be adopted by which a large proportion of the inhabitants of Ireland might be sent to America. Let the Committee test any plans, and sec what in them was really valuable; and whatever could be accomplished, he, for one, was most desirous to effect. Let him, in the meantime, tell their Lordships what had been done during the last few years, and what was now going on. They were apt to forget what during a few years had been accomplished; and he feared that the last annual report of the Emigration Commissioners, which had been recently presented, had not attracted the attention of their Lordships to the extent to which it was
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entitled. Up to the end of 1830 there was no such thing as emigration of labouring men to Australia; in fact, no ships were regularly engaged in the trade, and the cheapest passage that could then be obtained was a steerage passage, the price of which was then about 40 1. His noble Friend the Earl of Ripon at that time began to adopt regulations for the sale of lands and applying a largo proportion of the produce towards emigration. A Commission sat, of which the Duke of Richmon was chairman, and the result was that the passage-money had been brought down to 15 1. to Sydney; and in favourable cases to 15 1. or 16 1. to Southern and Western Australia. It was most satisfactory, as showing the progress that had been made, and the advantages which had been hitherto accomplished, that while in the earlier days of emigration there was a considerable mortality—though never to any great extent—among the emigrant ships; yet of late years—and the fact reflected on the Emigration Commissioners no small praise—the mortality had been brought considerably under 1 per cent; nay, on this long voyage, including the passage of the line, and the change of such a variety of climates, the mortality on board the emigrant ships was less than among a similar number of persons of the same ago resident in this country; and this redounded not a little to the credit of those who carried out the present system. This system it was still intended to carry on, and it would be extended as far as possible. Last Session, in accordance with the acts of his predecessors, he (Earl Grey) introduced an Act increasing the power of the Crown in the sale of waste lands in Australia; it was an Act which would have the effect of giving the use of valuable sheep and cattle lands in Australia; and no doubt another consequence of that Act would be that additional sums of money would be obtained in favour of the emigration funds. His noble Friend who spoke last, would allow him (Earl Grey) to say, that if he saw the colonial papers he would perceive that even at this moment there was no small pressure on the Government to break in on the policy which they had adopted in this respect, and adopted with so much success. It must always be recollected, however, that the sale of land at large prices was anything but popular in the colonies; and the application of the principle required some little caution and care, for they could not deal with men as

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they would with pawns on a chess-board; and they must consult the feelings of the colonists, more especially in our North American possessions. Much had been accomplished in North America, although the system there adopted was, perhaps, less striking; hut some years ago, the mode of emigration might be truly described as shovelling out paupers; and he was gratified to be able to state that, year by year, the system was improving on both sides of the Atlantic, with the utmost benefit to the emigrants and to the colonies. It had happened, that persons introduced themselves to the emigrants, in some cases as agents, to provide them with facilities for emigration, and had thus committed frauds upon them; and it was also true that in some instances ships had been sent out badly found and unfit for sea, and that ignorant men had been most improperly carried to a great distance from their proper destination. But the emigration officers who had been appointed had now established almost a complete system of protection for the emigrants; and wherever frauds were likely to take place, means were generally taken by the emigration agents to prevent them. There was one fact which was worthy of the most serious consideration in looking at the subject of emigration: their Lordships were aware that large sums had been sent home from America by emigrants to their friends in this empire; and these must have had a great effect in fostering and encouraging emigration at the expense of individuals, and not of the State. But he had said before, and he would now say it again, that the progress of emigration must be gradual; and he would repeat, that those who held out hopes to the people of Ireland that a considerable amount of relief might be afforded by sending off suddenly large portions of the population, were under a delusion themselves, and were holding out hopes which could not be realized. There were great advantages to be derived from emigration; great benefits must result from it; but it was utterly impossible that any great and sudden change could be effected by whatever plan of emigration the country should think fit to adopt. With regard to North America, the progress of emigration, with a view to the improvement of the condition of the emigrants, must be gradual, for this among other reasons—that it was absolutely necessary that the concurrence of the colonial authorities should be obtained; for
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this country could not carry out any plan a single step without their support and assistance. In April last, no fewer than 55,000 persons left the shores of England and Ireland for our American colonies and the United States. He was very sanguine that by the means now in operation those emigrants would be favourably received, and would be able to establish themselves on the other side of the Atlantic with very little more difficulty than what was experienced last year. No doubt there would be hardships and sufferings to be undergone; but, unless, in consequence of the privations they experienced in Ireland previous to their departure, fever and sickness should go out with them, he entertained very little fear of their success, and that large numbers would quietly settle there. Some ships had been driven back by stress of weather; but with the exception of the emigrants in these vessels there was little doubt that the large number of emigrants who went out would be satisfactorily settled; and it was the opinion of those who were best acquainted with this subject, that in the course of the present year the number of emigrants from Ireland and this country would not fall short of between 200,000 and 300,000 persons. Already 120,000 had gone out; and, considering how much of the season still remained, it would not be an over-estimate to assume that 100,000 more would emigrate this year. He had already stated it to be his opinion that the larger number of emigrants would be satisfactorily provided for when they arrived in America; but he must at the same time say, that if their Lordships were to adopt the views of some Gentlemen, and take measures for giving, by artificial means, a great stimulus to emigration, and thereby increase the number of emigrants by one-third or one-fourth beyond what would be the amount by what might properly be termed "natural emigration," the case would be very different. The result would be that the natural means of employment in America would not be sufficient to absorb all the candidates for labour. Now, as his noble Friend had observed, a small surplus of labour threw great distress on a whole body of labourers; the effect of any rash measure, such as that, would therefore be to expose the whole body of emigrants to very serious distress. This would give a check to emigration, the consequences of which might be felt for many years. Their Lordships all remembered what took place in the year

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1832, when the cholera broke out. In consequence of that dreadful pestilence, and the severity of the sufferings which it occasioned, many thousands were induced to emigrate; but finding no demand for their labour abroad, after undergoing great cruelties and much suffering, many of them were compelled to return to this country. The effect of that excess of emigration was to give a serious check to the natural course of emigration in subsequent years; and he believed it was as much as they could say that the consequences were even now entirely got over. But if they would not unduly stimulate emigration, but would allow it to take its natural course, and would confine their efforts to the making the best provision in their power on the other side of the Atlantic for receiving the emigrants and giving them employment, he believed they would be the means of effecting great good. Every succeeding year would increase the number who would voluntarily emigrate, because those who went out one year would be prepared the year after to receive their friends and relations. His noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) had read a very remarkable letter, addressed to a person in Canada by his relations in Ireland. What was the commentary upon that? One of the emigration agents in Canada was asked by the Government in Canada, whether, under the circumstances stated in that letter, it was expedient that Government should assist the relations of such persons to enable them to find their way to America. He begged their Lordships' attention to the reply which that agent gave. He stated—
"That he was of opinion that there were thousands of settlers in Canada who were ready to provide for their relations, if they could he brought over from Ireland and England free of expense. The funds provided by the Colony were only to afford relief to indigent emigrants after landing."
The agent then proceeded to state, that the sums remitted by settlers in Canada to enable their relations to emigrate, were rapidly increasing in amount. A few years ago, the instances were rare; but now they were becoming almost general; and he concluded by declaring it to be his opinion, that "the present system would effect all the purposes desired." Lord Elgin, in transmitting this paper home, strongly recommended that Her Majesty's Government should act upon the opinion expressed by the agent, and should adhere to the principle which had hitherto regu-
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lated their conduct, and determine that relief to emigrants should commence on their arrival in Canada. He (Earl Grey) was convinced that that was sound advice. His noble Friend had said, that unassisted emigration to some places did more harm than good. If his noble Friend would look at the report of the Emigration Commission of last year, he would not discover it to be the fact that unassisted emigrants consisted of persons who were without capital. By the report of 1846, it appeared that, of the number of emigrants that landed at Quebec in that year, upwards of half came under the denomination of unskilled labourers in Ireland; and out of the remainder, four-fifths wore agricultural labourers and farmers. But let him remind his noble Friend what was the class of persons called farmers in Ireland. They were men holding three, four, and five acres of land, the goodwill of which they very often sold to raise the means to enable them to emigrate. It was found, practically, that the number of those who possessed any means beyond what was necessary to take them to their port of debarkation, were very few indeed. The opinion of the agents was unanimous, that the large proportion of mere labourers sent out without capital could not maintain themselves. In the report from New Brunswick, this opinion was expressed in the strongest manner. That Colony possessed very great natural advantages; and he looked forward to the time when much good might be accomplished in that part of our American possessions. It appeared, therefore, from all the statements he had been able to consult, and from the opinions of those who were best acquainted with the subject, that if this country were artificially to increase the number of emigrants, it would be absolutely necessary that a larger amount of capital should be furnished for their employment. His noble Friend adverted to one topic upon which he certainly entirely concurred with him in the opinions he had expressed. His noble Friend said, that if they were willing to encourage emigration, what they ought to look to was the promotion of public works in Canada. This was a subject which had already engaged the attention of the Colonial Government. A very considerable loan had been raised by that Colony upon favourable terms, the interest of which was guaranteed by this country, and which money was now being expended upon public works in Canada. He should be ex-

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tremely glad to see this description of undertaking carried much further. He confessed he had the greatest anxiety to see the railroad system carried to the greatest extent in America. There was one projected undertaking of that kind, which he thought of the greatest national importance—namely, a railway projected to run from Quebec to Halifax. He could conceive nothing more important than the establishment of a communication by which they might have access from Canada to one of the nearest colonial ports to this country in all seasons of the year, and at the same time have, of course, equally easy access from Halifax to Canada. This he believed to be an object of the very highest national importance. In the construction of such a railroad, there was no doubt a great extent of land which might be made available, but which was at present, to a great extent, inaccessible. If the shrewd and practical good sense of the Americans were applied to the construction of this railroad, adapting it to the circumstances of the country, and leaving it to future times to be completed according to the more expensive designs of similar undertakings in this country—if the Colonial Legislature would pursue that policy, as he trusted it would—his conviction was that that railroad might be effected at a cost that would be covered by the increased value which it would confer on the land through which it ran. No man was more anxious than himself that that work should go forward. His noble Friend the Governor General of Canada was equally impressed with the same opinion, that it was a work most desirable to be accomplished. Before his departure, he (Earl Grey) had frequent conversations with his noble Friend upon the subject; and he was thoroughly acquainted with the views of Her Majesty's Government upon the point, and that they were no less anxious than he (Earl Grey) and his noble Friend (Lord Elgin) were, to promote the success of the undertaking. These were not things which could be pushed on with that avidity which some Gentlemen might wish. It was necessary that they should observe caution and deliberation, in order that their steps might be safe and secure. In the first place, the surveys were at present in a very imperfect condition. Orders had been given to proceed with them as expeditiously as possible; but the serious accident which occurred last year to an officer of the highest character and promise, who unfortu-
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nately lost his life in attempting to rescue one of the persons engaged with him from a perilous position, had had the effect of delaying the work; but means had since been taken to have the surveys advanced with all practicable despatch. It would be the duty of Lord Elgin to bring the subject before the Colonial Legislature, and endeavour with them to adopt measures best calculated to carry forward the undertaking. But there was something further at the present moment, which he (Earl Grey) feared would retard the advancement of this desirable work. He entertained serious doubts whether the colonists were of themselves able to supply the capital to carry it on. If this country wore now in the situation in which it was three or four years ago—if the funds were now at 100—if the money market were in that state in which capital could be readily obtained by any promising undertaking, he certainly thought that in England large assistance might be procured for carrying on so good a work. But it was impossible to look at the present state of things and feel the same confidence. They could not be ignorant of the present state of the money market. In spite of their having raised the interest on Exchequer bills, it was hardly possible to prevent those bills being returned upon the Government. So great, indeed, was the pressure, that it had become necessary for his noble Friend the President of the Council to move for the appointment of a Committee to consider what measures were necessary to be adopted to facilitate the suspension of the Railway Bills now pending, in consequence of the deficiency of the means for carrying on railway works. Their Lordships must be aware that whatever money should be taken from this country to promote public works in the Colonies, would be so much money abstracted from the means for carrying on similar undertakings in the mother country. His confidence in the resources of the country was in no degree diminished; and whatever difficulties might arise from the investment of money in undertakings not immediately productive, and from other temporary causes, if they were only favoured by Providence with a return of good harvests, he was so confident in the power of accumulation, and in the enterprise of this country, and in the enormous amount of capital which rendered its industry and enterprise effective, that, whatever might be the difficulties under which we at present laboured, he was con-

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vinced that they would be of a transient and fleeting character; and that in a short time voluntary emigration would, without the assistance or interference of Government, with only its sanction and countenance, continue to flow. But he called upon their Lordships not to encourage the delusive expectation, that it was in the power of the Government at once to meet the difficulties of the existing state of things. There was only one more topic to which he wished to advert. His noble Friend had pointed to the contrast presented between the progress of the United States and the progress of Canada. It was that progress in the United States which made that country so attractive to Englishmen; and it was that very progress which furnished strong argument in favour of leaving our Colonies in a great degree to their own resources and exertions. The over-interference and over-care of the Government had, in former times, kept back our Colonies; and he believed it was the wiser policy to leave the Colonies, to a great extent, to manage their own internal affairs, stimulating and encouraging, but not controlling them in their measures, or forcing them to adopt a course which appeared best to us, but which might not appear best to them; and that if we persevered in this policy, its good effects would be seen. These were the observations which seemed to him to be called for by the speech of his noble Friend; and he concluded by again repeating, that he trusted their Lordships would recollect, that, in consenting to this Committee, it was not his intention, or that of his Colleagues, to encourage an expectation that emigration could over be carried on upon the gigantic scale which some believed necessary and practicable, and to be a mode of affording immediate relief to Ireland. He believed it was only as subsidiary to other measures now in progress, calculated to relieve the local congestion, if he might so call it, in particular parts of Ireland, that emigration, as it had gone on, and would go on, could benefit our own population and be serviceable to our Colonies.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, his noble Friend (Earl Grey), thorough out the whole of his speech, had adverted very little to the condition of Ireland, which was one of the most important elements of the question. He urged upon the Government the necessity of considering the difficulties under which Ireland laboured, and whether further measures of relief could not be
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devised before the next Session of Parliament. Something more must be done unless they made up their minds that Ireland was to be a burden to this country for years and years to come. Her Majesty's Ministers had not, in his opinion, taken a sufficiently large view of the exertions necessary to be made for the relief of that country. His noble Friend had adverted to the difficulty which the state of the money market threw in the way of encouraging emigration; this argument might be a strong one, but it was demolished by the noble Earl when he expressed his confidence in the power and resources of this country. The noble Earl spoke of the accumulation of capital; but there was no such accumulation in Ireland. The question was, what was to be done with the people of Ireland? The noble Earl anticipated relief from voluntary emigration. What was that voluntary emigration? Let their Lordships bear in mind that this was the first time in the history of the country when the people of Ireland were thoroughly disposed to emigrate. He thought their Lordships should avail themselves of this feeling, because he ventured to say, and he appealed to the few Irish Peers who heard him, whether the assertion was not correct, that if there should be a tolerable crop of potatoes this year, there would be an end to all disposition to emigrate. They ought, therefore, to have availed themselves of the emergency, for emergencies were opportunities; and he did not hesitate to say, that they ought to have encouraged emigration even by Government aid. Who are now to assist the Irish to emigrate? The landlords? Had the landlords the power? He said they could not. If their Lordships looked for any relief for Ireland, or rather for England and for the empire, from emigration, and expected that it could be set on foot by the Irish landlords, they would be disappointed. It could not be done. If it could not be done by the landlords, by whom was it to he done? To assert that the landlords could do it through the electoral divisions, was only asserting that it could be done by the landlords themselves. He contended that it was absolutely necessary that Government should make extraordinary exertions for the relief of Ireland, and there was no means by which that object could be accomplished more likely to prove successful than a wise and comprehensive system of emigration. The condition of Ireland, even as respected its peace and tranquillity,

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demanded that something should he done; for he was satisfied that if this country did not exert itself more than it had hitherto done for the preservation of the people of Ireland, they would inevitably have tumult in that country. It was necessary that they should encourage emigration, and at the same time promote great public works, not merely in the colonies, but also in Ireland. It was impossible to remove the evils which now surrounded them in Ireland, without an extensive system of emigration; he believed that unless such means of relief were resorted to, they would not for years and years be able to surmount the difficulties which pressed upon that country. He knew that there was in England great unwillingness to look upon any calamity that came over Ireland as a calamity also affecting this country. There was a strong feeling of this kind in England, but it was one which ought not to be encouraged. When he declared himself to be in favour of emigration, he was not to be understood as recommending such an extensive or wholesale system as might have the effect of creating unpleasant feelings among the colonists in North America; but he was in favour of a wise and careful system, which, while it benefited Ireland, would cause no jealousy in any other qusrter. The noble Earl then proceeded to contend that the Government ought to be prepared for a continuance, if not an increase, of the distress which prevailed in Ireland. To make up for the loss of the potato, it was necessary that two acres of wheat should be sown for every acre of potatoes that had been displaced; but there had not been the slightest possibility of such a thing having been done this year in Ireland. The Government and the House ought therefore to be prepared to meet the wants of that country. They might depend upon it, that it was impossible to go on as they were now doing; and it was full time they were all convinced that such measures as their Poor Law and their loans of 1,500,800 l., would do nothing to meet the exigencies of Ireland.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid a few words in reply, and pointed out that, by the admission of the noble Earl himself, just in proportion as emigration had been properly regulated by Government superintendence, it had been successful. He believed that there was no possible solution of the difficulties under which Ireland was placed, unless they adopted a large, a cautious,
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and a wise system of emigration from that country.
Motion agreed to, and Committee appointed.
House adjourned.