LORD STANLEYhoped he should be excused if he put one more question to the noble Marquess opposite. He wished to ask what was the nature of the duties to be executed by Commissioners, and which were heretofore performed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster? Now he did not put this question by way of complaint, or for the purpose of finding fault, as, in point of fact, he knew not what had been done, or the motives which prompted the Government in what they had done, but purely for information; and he thought it was a subject on which Parliament ought to have some explanation from Ministers. About a week or a fortnight ago, a proclamation appeared in the Gazette, by which it appeared that Her Majesty had appointed three noble Lords, Members of that House, and two right hon. Gentlemen, Members of the other House, to be of Her Majesty's Council for the Duchy of Lancaster—and that, he believed, was the sole information which Parliament possessed in reference to the subject. He was quite aware that everything which related to the pecuniary concerns of the Duchy of Lancaster was a matter in which Parliament and the country had no direct interest; that the revenues of the Duchy were a portion of the revenues of the Crown, and were as much the property of the Crown, and as little the property of the public, as any of the revenues which belonged to their Lordships. They formed no part of the 515 regular revenues which had been surrendered in lieu of the Civil List; and though they were vested in and under the superintendence of Parliament, yet the net receipts, whatever they might be, were paid to the privy purse, without control or let from Parliament. At the same time the management of the revenues was not wholly withdrawn from the superintendence of Parliament. He believed there was an annual account presented to Parliament of the expenditure incurred, and of the gross receipts and net receipts, and, generally speaking, of the entire management of the revenues. The presentation of this account did therefore, in his opinion, imply that Parliament exercised some control over the matter. Nay, more, the administration of the affairs of the Duchy, including the administration of its financial affairs, was vested in one of the responsible advisers of the Crown, who was generally a Cabinet Minister, and in that capacity responsible to Parliament for the management or mismanagement of the duties confided to him. Now, undoubtedly, if there had been any mismanagement, if there had been any extravagant expenditure upon the establishment, if there had been waste in the management of the revenue, or if there had been improvidence in the administration of the landed property, that was a subject into which Parliament had a right to inquire, and ought to inquire. And the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Campbell) would forgive him for saying that, as Chancellor of the Duchy, he and those who filled that office were responsible to Parliament for the manner in which they discharged their duties. The office of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was one that had been frequently intrusted to persons of far inferior abilities to its present possessor. It was one of the duties which had never been considered exceedingly onerous. Now, the noble and learned Lord, the present Chancellor of the Duchy, was not an infant—he was not a femme couverte—he was not subject to any mental or physical incapacity for business; and therefore he (Lord Stanley) did not then see, unless some explanation could be given, why the noble and learned Lord should not be considered as competent as any of his predecessors to perform the duties that devolved upon him. He wanted to know in what capacity the new councillors to the Duchy of Lancaster were appointed. They must have been appointed either to aid the Chancellor with their advice, 516 or for the purpose of superseding the noble and learned Lord in a portion of his duties. In either case it was not unreasonable for Parliament to exercise control. They should know in what respect the administration of the office had been found deficient. All they knew was, that five gentlemen had been appointed as a Council by Her Majesty for the Duchy of Lancaster. What portion of the duties they had to perform, Parliament was ignorant of. Was there confided to them the revenues of the Duchy? Had they to look to the management of the landed property of the Duchy? Was their opinion as a majority to carry the different questions that came before them? — and this was not an unimportant consideration—or in what way was it that they were to divide or supersede the authority of the person who was responsible to Parliament for conducting the affairs of the Duchy? He wanted to know their object in appointing this subsidiary Council—whether any part of the duties vested in a responsible Minister of the Crown were to be vested in a permanent board appointed by the Crown, and not responsible to Parliament? He also wanted to know whether they discharged their duties in accordance with an oath taken by them; for, if he was not mistaken, they did take an oath. Then, in that case, he wanted to know by what authority the oath was administered—what were the terms, and what the nature of the oath? Indeed, he had asked a noble Lord who had been appointed as one of the Council, what where the duties he would have to perform; and his answer was, that he really had not the least idea; all he could say was, that he had taken an oath for the faithful discharge of his duties; but what the extent or the nature of those duties was, his noble Friend was as ignorant as any of their Lordships. All the public knew was, that there were commissioners appointed to discharge duties which had never before been considered too onerous or too laborious for one; and this at a time when the office was filled by one fully competent to perform them. And when persons were sworn to perform certain duties, and they did not know what those duties were, it was not unreasonable then, without finding fault with what had been done, and without expressing an opinion—indeed they were not then in a situation to form any opinion on the subject—but in such a state of affairs it was not unreasonable to ask Her Majesty's 517 Ministers what motives had led them to establish this new commission; what portion of the duties of the Chancellor it had taken upon itself to discharge; what portion of his duties were to be withdrawn from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster; what portion of his patronage was to be withdrawn from him and vested in the new Commissioners?
LORD STANLEYThen was the patronage to be retained by the Chancellor, and the duties to be thrown on the subordinates? Were they to advise the Chancellor, or their opinion to overrule that of the Chancellor? He thought they ought to know what instructions had been given to these Commissioners, and what was the extent of their duties. These were facts which should be laid before Parliament, in order that they might the more clearly ascertain what these duties were.
LORD CAMPBELLthought the noble Lord had no cause to apologize for seeking information on this question; and he returned the noble Lord thanks for mentioning the subject, with respect to which a great deal of misconception had taken place, and, in ignorance of the facts, a great many foolish comments had been made. What the noble Lord had learned in private from any individual, now a Councillor of the Duchy of Lancaster, could hardly be meant to have been proclaimed in that House; and he should have thought the noble Lord would have had the highest respect for the individual to whom he had referred, because, as all parties were represented in the Council, that individual happened to be a most eminent protectionist. He would now give an answer to the noble Lord's inquiry. There was no commission, and no innovation in the ancient constitution of the Duchy of Lancaster, which remained now as it stood in the time of John of Gaunt. Ever since there had been a County Palatine and a Duchy of Lancaster, there had been a Chancellor with a Council attached to it. The Chancellor acted judicially, and made certain appointments. As the noble Lord knew, the Chancellor appointed magistrates, and on such subjects he acted proprio motu; on certain subjects he acted without the advice of any Council; but with respect to others he called in the assistance of the Council. There had been from time immemorial a Council, from which the Chancellor of the Duchy took advice with respect to certain subjects, such as the 518 management of the property and finances of the Duchy; and this Council consisted of the Vice Chancellor, the Receiver General, the Auditor, and the Attorney General of the Duchy. Still it was found that a good deal of inconvenience had been experienced from the Chancellor not having the advice of those persons who were more competent to advise respecting the letting of land, the amount of rent to be demanded, and the manner in which this property, scattered all over England, and of a very miscellaneous description, should be managed. The Chancellor of the Duchy was a political office, and connected with the Government, while the Councillors had nothing political belonging to them. The Councillors, until the present addition to their number, were Mr. Horace Twiss, the eminent Chancery barrister, and who, as he (Lord Campbell) considered, belonged to the Tory party, Vice Chancellor; Mr. Lockhart, a gentleman most eminent in literature, Auditor; General Fox, a very gallant officer, Receiver General; and Mr. Ellis, an eminent barrister, Attorney General. These gentlemen, however, were very little cognizant of country affairs. The noble Lord had stated, that he (Lord Campbell) laboured under no legal incapacity. He certainly was not a femme couverte, or an infant; and he hoped he was not a lunatic: but he confessed his ignorance in respect to agricultural affairs. He was as ignorant of such matters as the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham), who, on being taken through a field of green wheat by Mr. Coke, of Norfolk, exclaimed, "What a fine field of lavender!" His (Lord Campbell's) predecessor in his present office, though more competent to understand these matters, nevertheless felt great inconvenience; and it was intended under the late Government to make an addition to the number of Councillors in respect to the management of the property and finances of the Duchy. When the subject was mentioned to him (Lord Campbell), he most cordially approved of the suggestion, and strongly recommended Her Majesty to appoint, for the due management of Her revenues in the Duchy of Lancaster, additional Councillors, and he also recommended the individuals to be appointed. They were sworn in and took the usual oath which had been immemorially taken by the Councillors of the Duchy of Lancaster. He had to inform the noble Lord, that they did not supersede the Chancellor of the 519 Duchy; because, by the patent granted by the Crown, the Chancellor's opinion prevailed on all subjects coming under the consideration of the Chancellor and the Councillors. Still, if the Chancellor were a wise man, he would naturally take the opinion of those who were competent to give a sound one; and for himself, he had no hesitation in saying that he should be guided by the advice of such men as Lords Hardwicke and Portman, in matters relating to the letting of land. The former noble Lord had, indeed, undertaken—and this proved the value of the appointment—to examine a farm in the Bedford Level belonging to the Duchy, and to give advice with respect to the manner in which it should be managed. The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) might be assured, that the constitution of the Duchy of Lancaster had in no degree been altered; and if the noble Lord should ever receive the high commission of forming an Administration, his Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster would find the office unimpaired in its efficiency or privileges.
LORD BROUGHAMIt was certainly a most uncalled-for charge to say his noble Friend had betrayed the confidence of another noble Lord; for it was plain that noble Lord had no confidence to betray, as he was utterly ignorant on the subject. If "a multitude of Councillors" implied wisdom, the estates of the Duchy must be admirably managed; but the explanation of the noble and learned Lord, showed the affairs of the Duchy to be in a very strange position, for the Chancellor pronounced a sentence of self-stultification, and yet insisted that his opinion should be supreme. Had the offices of these Councillors been divided? Was the patronage divided? Was the salary divided? [Lord CAMPBELL: It was not worth dividing.] But the opinion of the Councillors should be taken on that, too. Thus, they and the Council had an incompetent Chancellor, and yet the incompetent was not bound to take their advice. And all this was done for an estate of 20,000l. His noble and learned Friend, to defend his own ignorance of all that appertained to land, told a story of him which was wholly without foundation, The real story was this—that when Lords Grey and Durham, Sir R. Wilson, and himself, were on a visit to Mr. Coke, his lamented Friend pointed them out some sterile land which he had brought into cultivation. Upon which he (Lord Brougham) said, "Show us some of your lands that 520 really bear some good crops." Mr. Coke rejoined (alluding, no doubt, to Sir R. Wilson and himself): "What's the use of showing you people from London wheat fields, when you don't know wheat from lavender?" To come back to the Councillors. He saw that on his noble and learned Friend's agricultural Council there were two gallant officers accustomed to plough—the sea [laughter]; and one of them to plough the land [laughter]. He believed that the additional Council would not increase the rental of the Duchy to the value of 100l. a year, whilst he regretted to add, that having heard his noble and learned Friend's explanation, he was just as ignorant on the subject as before that explanation had been given. ["Hear!" and laughter.]