Lords Sitting of 26 February 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Received the Royal Assent.—Destitute Persons (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Guardians of the Staines Union, for the Repeal of the present Law of Settlement, and for a National Rate for the Relief of the Poor.—From Cremorne, Monaghan, for the Maintenance of the Electoral Division System of Rating in any Measures for the Temporary Relief of the Poor in Ireland.

BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that in the absence of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) yesterday evening, he gave notice of his intention of putting a question to him that night on the subject of public business, to which it would be well for the convenience of their Lordships and the country, if Her Majesty's Government could give an answer. He adverted then to the state in which public business appeared to be in the other House, and to the state of no business in which their Lordships' House appeared to be at the present time. This was the sixth week of the present Session of Parliament, which had sat at an unusually early period, and no business had come before them except some temporary measures for the relief of distress in Ireland; and at that very moment, with the exception of the business which stood on the "Votes" for that day—the notice of his noble Friend (the Earl

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of Eglintoun), and the Bill for granting indemnity to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—not one single Notice and not one single Bill was on their Lordships' "Votes," or was ready to be submitted to their consideration. And from what he could learn of the proceedings of the other House, it would appear that in the course of that night, and of the next week, the principal business—indeed almost the exclusive business—would relate to the provision for the Estimates, which would make no advance in public business, and would not facilitate any measure with regard to Ireland. The Irish measures for providing permanent relief for the distress in that country, were, as he believed, postponed to a period so late as the 8th of March, and he thought it impossible they could pass through the House of Commons earlier than some time between the 15th and 22nd of March, which would be very near the Easter recess. It appeared to him very much to be regretted that their Lordships should have arrived at so late a period of the Session without making any progress in public business, and without having any business of importance before them. He admitted that, looking to the Speech from the Throne, the promises and expectations of business to be brought forward that Session, were not of a very extensive character; for, with the exception of the measures for the relief of distress in Ireland, the only measure mentioned in that Speech was a sanatory measure for the health of towns. He was very well aware that, in consequence of the jealousy of the House of Commons, which, as he now and always thought, was carried to an extreme, not to say to an unnecessary and inconvenient extent, great difficulties existed in originating measures which should contain money clauses, such as those relating to the health of towns or to the improvement of the law, or like that under the care of his noble Friend with respect to convict discipline, which might, as he thought, very properly and very successfully, be originated and discussed in their Lordships' House with much greater advantage in the first instance than elsewhere. If that were done, their Lordships would then have more leisure at the end of the Session to consider the mass of business which was generally thrown upon them in July and August, and which was in consequence got through very hastily and carelessly. The questions he therefore wished to put to Government were—first, whether it was
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their intention to introduce any measures of importance for their Lordships' consideration; and if so, of what nature they were, and at what period between this time and the Easter recess they would be brought before the House?—and secondly, whether, as far as Government could form an opinion on the subject, it was likely their Lordships would have any business of importance sent up to them before that time from the other House of Parliament?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEcould assure the noble Lord he would be very glad to give him any information on this subject. When the noble Lord made a complaint that more business had not been transacted at an early period of the Session, he only repeated what had been said, from time to time, when the noble Lord was himself in office, up to the present Session, when it could be met with a much more satisfactory answer than before. Within the last hour, he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had looked over the Journals of the House, and it appeared that much more business had been transacted during the last six weeks of this present Session, than for a corresponding period in any other Session when the noble Lord was in power. He would not select the last Session, because the noble Lord was not then in office; but going back to the Session before, in 1845, when he was in office, and looking to the Speech from the Throne, which announced many measures of importance, he found the following results. Parliament met on February 14. Taking the first seven weeks of that Session, he found that the following were the legislative proceedings for that time:—On February 24, the Bill for the Abolition of Deodands was read a first time; on the 28th, the Bail in Error Bill was read a second time; on the 10th of March, the Jewish Disabilities Bill was read a second time, and Pauper Lunatics (Ireland) Bill a first time; on the 14th, the Jewish Disabilities Bill was read a third time, and the Stamp Duties Assimilation Bill a third time; and on the 17th, the Property Tax was read a first time, and the Pauper Lunatics (Ireland) Bill a second time. But not one of those measures was passed, with the exception of one, the Jewish Disabilities Bill, and the Stamp Duties Assimilation Bill. That constituted the whole of the business for more than the first six weeks of the Session 1845. He did not make the statement as any attack on the Government of that day to which the noble Lord belonged,

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and which was, no doubt, desirous of bringing business before their Lordships' House, but for the purpose of calling to his recollection that in that, as in every Session, very great obstacles existed to the introduction of Bills to their Lordships at an early period, which might account for the circumstance that for nearly seven weeks in 1845 they had actually introduced and passed but one Bill. He would now state the Bills which had passed during the six weeks of the present Session. Parliament met on the 19th of January. No less than six important Bills, instead of one, had passed through all their stages up to this time: the Buckwheat Importation Bill, the Distilling from Sugar and Brewing from Sugar Bills, the Chelsea Pensioners Bill, the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill, and the Navigation Laws Suspension Bill. All these measures had passed through every stage in their Lordships' House, and he could confidently assert they constituted altogether an infinitely larger amount of important business than had ever been passed during the first six weeks of any past Session. He did not mean to say that this was in itself an excuse for neglecting to bring forward measures at the earliest possible period of the Session; and he wished to take that opportunity of stating to their Lordships how public business stood with respect to the views of Government, and for the purpose of giving the noble Lord every information in his power. He had hoped that some business would have been brought before their Lordships; but obstacles had arisen to it—partly from the very important discussion in the other House, which had not been brought to a successful termination—he meant the long and protracted debate on the question of assisting railways in Ireland by Government money, which had caused great delay to the progress of business. In consequence of it Parliament was brought to a stage of business when it was necessary to consider the financial condition of the country; and in doing so their Lordships would perceive that, in point of fact, the other House was considering Irish business, because though its immediate progress might be delayed by the consideration of the Ways and Means of the year, the existence of Irish distress—now admitted by all parties—required very large sacrifices of public money for its relief; and it therefore became indispensable to acquaint the other House with the extent of that demand, and to take the sense of the House
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upon it, with a view to facilitate the entertainment and progress of the measures for Ireland, which could only be considered with reference to large financial questions. These were the reasons which made it impossible to bring on the Irish measures before the 8th March; but he could state confidently that those Bills would be proceeded with on that day. As to the time they would take to pass through the other House, and as to the discussion which would arise upon them, he need hardly say it would be impossible to state positively when it would be brought to a close. It was not correct that no notice of public business to be brought before the House had been given to their Lordships. He stated a few days ago that one Irish Bill, which had undergone great alteration on the part of his noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor), and which required to be weighed with the greatest care, for the purpose of enabling proprietors to sell parts of their estates, would be laid very soon on the Table. Much progress had been already made with it; and the noble Lord must recollect how many communications there had been necessarily received on the subject. It was also the intention of Government to introduce some very important Bills with respect to the administration of the penal laws, the reformation of criminals, and the improvement of prisons; but the consideration of the sanatory condition of towns could not be originated in that House—they must take time to consider the subject; and the noble Lord was aware there were great obstacles in the way of introducing measures in that House, owing to the jealousy, often, as he thought, unnecessary, with which their conduct was watched by the other House in matters of that kind.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that the time which had elapsed since November might have been employed in the preparation of those Bills. He regretted that more measures had not been introduced into their Lordships' House, and saw no reason why certain classes of Bills should not first be submitted to their Lordships, provisions in regard to penalties being reserved for the consideration of the other House. He was glad to learn that there was a prospect of legislation on the criminal law; and when he observed that unprofessional persons were proposing measures on the subject (Sir John Pakington's Bill in reference to juvenile delinquency was an example), he felt inclined to press

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for the appointment of a Committee to take the whole matter into consideration. But for the notice just taken of the subject by the noble Marquess, he (Lord Brougham) certainly should have proposed a Committee upon the matter which he opened to their Lordships when presenting the Liverpool petition last week, and he did not know whether he should not do so still, as he had received several important communications since, and among the rest an entire denial of some parts of the results of the Liverpool experience.
The EARL of WICKLOWsaid, if blame were attached to Her Majesty's present Government for not bringing forward measures in that House at an earlier period of the Session, with much greater weight it would attach to those Governments who had preceded them, who had been strong, and had known themselves to be strong in that House. And the less ground of complaint was there of a Government who felt that they were weak. With reference to the two Irish measures which were now before the other House of Parliament—one being a Bill for granting a million and a half of money to the Irish landlords, on the security of their estates; and the other, a Bill for making very great and important alterations in the Irish poor law—the noble Lord at the head of the Government had stated that these two Bills must go pari passu through that House. If this were not the case, he (the Earl of Wicklow) had no doubt that one or the other of them would come up to that House long before the Easter recess; but by thus coupling them together, in order to send them up at one and the same time, the probability was that unless the Poor Law Bill was considerably altered, they would neither of them come up at all during the present Session. Now, he denied that the Government had any right thus to couple the two Bills. The Bill for making advances to the Irish landlords was connected with, and formed part of, a question which was passed last year. When the late Government brought forward their Corn Bill, they promised that it should be accompanied by certain other measures which would be for the advantages of the landed interest of the united empire. These measures they called measures of compensation for the passing of the Corn Bill. One of them was for advancing two millions of money to the landed proprietors of Great Britain; the other for advancing one million to proprietors in Ireland. The latter Bill, however,
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was drawn up in so faulty a manner, that a pledge was given at the close of the Session that it should undergo amendment on the reassembling of Parliament in the present year. As regarded that Bill, therefore, he contended that the Government had no right whatever to keep it back, and to say that it must come before their Lordships pari passu with the Poor Law Bill, and which Bill might not pass at all; thus inferring, that if the one did not become law, the other should not be given to the country. Now, this was all very well as far as a half million of the money was concerned, which was an increase on the original sum intended to be granted; but as to the million, he denied their right to postpone the measure, for it was to be given as compensation for the measure passed last year.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, it was quite true that an impression had existed that it would be desirable to consider the measures to which the noble Earl had alluded—namely, that for advancing money to the landlords, and that for altering the Irish poor law, together, inasmuch as the first would afford very great accommodation to the landlords, whilst the second would impose a burden upon their property. The noble Earl had stated that one Bill was entirely independent of the other; and so far as related to 1,000,000 l. out of the 1,500,000 l., which the Bill proposed to appropriate for the advantage of Irish landlords, the noble Earl was quite correct; but he was not correct with regard to the benefit to be derived by the landlords under the Bill as formerly passed, and under the Bill as it was now proposed to be passed. It was true that in the last Session, and under the late Government, it was announced in this and the other House of Parliament, that a sum of 1,000,000 l. was intended to be advanced to the Irish landlords for the purpose of drainage in Ireland, and at the same time that 2,000,000 l. were to be advanced for the like purpose to the landlords of Great Britain. But the present Bill was not merely a Bill which was promised last Session, for the purpose of extending that benefit to entailed estates in Ireland; but a larger amount of benefit was proposed in this Bill to be granted to landlords, by greatly extending the objects for which the advances were to be made, so as to include every species of substantial and permanent improvement that could be made on any estate. This Bill being regarded as a sort

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of compensation for the other, it was deemed advisable that the two should be considered together; and he had no doubt when the measure came into operation, their Lordships would find that it worked very beneficially for the permanent and substantial improvement of Ireland.

THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that though he feared that this conversation held out very small hope of an early termination of the Session, yet he would fain ask his noble Friend, what prospects their Lordships had of speedily inhabiting a more habitable place than that in which they were then assembled? His anxiety to enter the new palace had not been diminished by what had happened to him that day, when he enjoyed the gratification of visiting the new Houses, and seeing the most magnificent building that he had ever seen in any part of the world, doing the greatest possible honour to the very skilful, learned, and ingenious architect, both in the interior and the exterior of the splendid palace which was to be devoted to the two branches of the Legislature. If anything could mitigate his dislike of Gothic architecture, it was what he had seen that day. True, it had not altered his opinion with reference to that style; but this he would say, that what he had seen to-day, fully confirmed his original expectations, and that if anything could make Gothic architecture palatable to those who had a totally different taste, it was the skill which had been exhibited by that most eminent architect (Mr. Barry), in the design and construction of the new Houses of Parliament.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEfeared that he could not indulge his noble and learned Friend's hopes so far as to confirm any opinion which he might entertain with regard to a speedy prospect of an early termination of the Session. He could state, however, about the period when their Lordships might expect to assemble in their new House. He owed it to the architect, of whom his noble and learned Friend had spoken in such handsome and justly-deserved terms, to say, that he had also the inferior but not-to-be-despised merit of keeping the engagements which he had entered into with that House at the end of the last Session of Parliament; for he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) was enabled to state, that even if it were the wish of their Lordships to occupy their new House
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earlier than Easter, means might be found of preparing it for them before the end of the next month. But he thought their Lordships would agree with him that the adjournment which usually took place at Easter, would be the most convenient time for completing those arrangements which would enable them to be received there. He could confidently state, on the authority of Mr. Barry, as well as on his own inspection, that there could not be the slightest doubt that in the Easter week every preparation would be made for their Lordships' reception the very first day after the recess.
LORD BROUGHAMwould take that opportunity of supplying an inadvertent omission which had occurred in the observations he had addressed to the House. He begged to state that a gentleman of great experience had assured him that the fresco paintings designed and superintended by Mr. Dyce had been most successful.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER.
LORD STANLEYhoped he should be excused if he put one more question to the noble Marquess opposite. He wished to ask what was the nature of the duties to be executed by Commissioners, and which were heretofore performed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster? Now he did not put this question by way of complaint, or for the purpose of finding fault, as, in point of fact, he knew not what had been done, or the motives which prompted the Government in what they had done, but purely for information; and he thought it was a subject on which Parliament ought to have some explanation from Ministers. About a week or a fortnight ago, a proclamation appeared in the Gazette, by which it appeared that Her Majesty had appointed three noble Lords, Members of that House, and two right hon. Gentlemen, Members of the other House, to be of Her Majesty's Council for the Duchy of Lancaster—and that, he believed, was the sole information which Parliament possessed in reference to the subject. He was quite aware that everything which related to the pecuniary concerns of the Duchy of Lancaster was a matter in which Parliament and the country had no direct interest; that the revenues of the Duchy were a portion of the revenues of the Crown, and were as much the property of the Crown, and as little the property of the public, as any of the revenues which belonged to their Lordships. They formed no part of the

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regular revenues which had been surrendered in lieu of the Civil List; and though they were vested in and under the superintendence of Parliament, yet the net receipts, whatever they might be, were paid to the privy purse, without control or let from Parliament. At the same time the management of the revenues was not wholly withdrawn from the superintendence of Parliament. He believed there was an annual account presented to Parliament of the expenditure incurred, and of the gross receipts and net receipts, and, generally speaking, of the entire management of the revenues. The presentation of this account did therefore, in his opinion, imply that Parliament exercised some control over the matter. Nay, more, the administration of the affairs of the Duchy, including the administration of its financial affairs, was vested in one of the responsible advisers of the Crown, who was generally a Cabinet Minister, and in that capacity responsible to Parliament for the management or mismanagement of the duties confided to him. Now, undoubtedly, if there had been any mismanagement, if there had been any extravagant expenditure upon the establishment, if there had been waste in the management of the revenue, or if there had been improvidence in the administration of the landed property, that was a subject into which Parliament had a right to inquire, and ought to inquire. And the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Campbell) would forgive him for saying that, as Chancellor of the Duchy, he and those who filled that office were responsible to Parliament for the manner in which they discharged their duties. The office of Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was one that had been frequently intrusted to persons of far inferior abilities to its present possessor. It was one of the duties which had never been considered exceedingly onerous. Now, the noble and learned Lord, the present Chancellor of the Duchy, was not an infant—he was not a femme couverte—he was not subject to any mental or physical incapacity for business; and therefore he (Lord Stanley) did not then see, unless some explanation could be given, why the noble and learned Lord should not be considered as competent as any of his predecessors to perform the duties that devolved upon him. He wanted to know in what capacity the new councillors to the Duchy of Lancaster were appointed. They must have been appointed either to aid the Chancellor with their advice,
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or for the purpose of superseding the noble and learned Lord in a portion of his duties. In either case it was not unreasonable for Parliament to exercise control. They should know in what respect the administration of the office had been found deficient. All they knew was, that five gentlemen had been appointed as a Council by Her Majesty for the Duchy of Lancaster. What portion of the duties they had to perform, Parliament was ignorant of. Was there confided to them the revenues of the Duchy? Had they to look to the management of the landed property of the Duchy? Was their opinion as a majority to carry the different questions that came before them? — and this was not an unimportant consideration—or in what way was it that they were to divide or supersede the authority of the person who was responsible to Parliament for conducting the affairs of the Duchy? He wanted to know their object in appointing this subsidiary Council—whether any part of the duties vested in a responsible Minister of the Crown were to be vested in a permanent board appointed by the Crown, and not responsible to Parliament? He also wanted to know whether they discharged their duties in accordance with an oath taken by them; for, if he was not mistaken, they did take an oath. Then, in that case, he wanted to know by what authority the oath was administered—what were the terms, and what the nature of the oath? Indeed, he had asked a noble Lord who had been appointed as one of the Council, what where the duties he would have to perform; and his answer was, that he really had not the least idea; all he could say was, that he had taken an oath for the faithful discharge of his duties; but what the extent or the nature of those duties was, his noble Friend was as ignorant as any of their Lordships. All the public knew was, that there were commissioners appointed to discharge duties which had never before been considered too onerous or too laborious for one; and this at a time when the office was filled by one fully competent to perform them. And when persons were sworn to perform certain duties, and they did not know what those duties were, it was not unreasonable then, without finding fault with what had been done, and without expressing an opinion—indeed they were not then in a situation to form any opinion on the subject—but in such a state of affairs it was not unreasonable to ask Her Majesty's

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Ministers what motives had led them to establish this new commission; what portion of the duties of the Chancellor it had taken upon itself to discharge; what portion of his duties were to be withdrawn from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster; what portion of his patronage was to be withdrawn from him and vested in the new Commissioners?
LORD CAMPBELL: None.
LORD STANLEY: Then was the patronage to be retained by the Chancellor, and the duties to be thrown on the subordinates? Were they to advise the Chancellor, or their opinion to overrule that of the Chancellor? He thought they ought to know what instructions had been given to these Commissioners, and what was the extent of their duties. These were facts which should be laid before Parliament, in order that they might the more clearly ascertain what these duties were.
LORD CAMPBELLthought the noble Lord had no cause to apologize for seeking information on this question; and he returned the noble Lord thanks for mentioning the subject, with respect to which a great deal of misconception had taken place, and, in ignorance of the facts, a great many foolish comments had been made. What the noble Lord had learned in private from any individual, now a Councillor of the Duchy of Lancaster, could hardly be meant to have been proclaimed in that House; and he should have thought the noble Lord would have had the highest respect for the individual to whom he had referred, because, as all parties were represented in the Council, that individual happened to be a most eminent protectionist. He would now give an answer to the noble Lord's inquiry. There was no commission, and no innovation in the ancient constitution of the Duchy of Lancaster, which remained now as it stood in the time of John of Gaunt. Ever since there had been a County Palatine and a Duchy of Lancaster, there had been a Chancellor with a Council attached to it. The Chancellor acted judicially, and made certain appointments. As the noble Lord knew, the Chancellor appointed magistrates, and on such subjects he acted proprio motu; on certain subjects he acted without the advice of any Council; but with respect to others he called in the assistance of the Council. There had been from time immemorial a Council, from which the Chancellor of the Duchy took advice with respect to certain subjects, such as the
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management of the property and finances of the Duchy; and this Council consisted of the Vice Chancellor, the Receiver General, the Auditor, and the Attorney General of the Duchy. Still it was found that a good deal of inconvenience had been experienced from the Chancellor not having the advice of those persons who were more competent to advise respecting the letting of land, the amount of rent to be demanded, and the manner in which this property, scattered all over England, and of a very miscellaneous description, should be managed. The Chancellor of the Duchy was a political office, and connected with the Government, while the Councillors had nothing political belonging to them. The Councillors, until the present addition to their number, were Mr. Horace Twiss, the eminent Chancery barrister, and who, as he (Lord Campbell) considered, belonged to the Tory party, Vice Chancellor; Mr. Lockhart, a gentleman most eminent in literature, Auditor; General Fox, a very gallant officer, Receiver General; and Mr. Ellis, an eminent barrister, Attorney General. These gentlemen, however, were very little cognizant of country affairs. The noble Lord had stated, that he (Lord Campbell) laboured under no legal incapacity. He certainly was not a femme couverte, or an infant; and he hoped he was not a lunatic: but he confessed his ignorance in respect to agricultural affairs. He was as ignorant of such matters as the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham), who, on being taken through a field of green wheat by Mr. Coke, of Norfolk, exclaimed, "What a fine field of lavender!" His (Lord Campbell's) predecessor in his present office, though more competent to understand these matters, nevertheless felt great inconvenience; and it was intended under the late Government to make an addition to the number of Councillors in respect to the management of the property and finances of the Duchy. When the subject was mentioned to him (Lord Campbell), he most cordially approved of the suggestion, and strongly recommended Her Majesty to appoint, for the due management of Her revenues in the Duchy of Lancaster, additional Councillors, and he also recommended the individuals to be appointed. They were sworn in and took the usual oath which had been immemorially taken by the Councillors of the Duchy of Lancaster. He had to inform the noble Lord, that they did not supersede the Chancellor of the

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Duchy; because, by the patent granted by the Crown, the Chancellor's opinion prevailed on all subjects coming under the consideration of the Chancellor and the Councillors. Still, if the Chancellor were a wise man, he would naturally take the opinion of those who were competent to give a sound one; and for himself, he had no hesitation in saying that he should be guided by the advice of such men as Lords Hardwicke and Portman, in matters relating to the letting of land. The former noble Lord had, indeed, undertaken—and this proved the value of the appointment—to examine a farm in the Bedford Level belonging to the Duchy, and to give advice with respect to the manner in which it should be managed. The noble Lord (Lord Stanley) might be assured, that the constitution of the Duchy of Lancaster had in no degree been altered; and if the noble Lord should ever receive the high commission of forming an Administration, his Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster would find the office unimpaired in its efficiency or privileges.
LORD BROUGHAM: It was certainly a most uncalled-for charge to say his noble Friend had betrayed the confidence of another noble Lord; for it was plain that noble Lord had no confidence to betray, as he was utterly ignorant on the subject. If "a multitude of Councillors" implied wisdom, the estates of the Duchy must be admirably managed; but the explanation of the noble and learned Lord, showed the affairs of the Duchy to be in a very strange position, for the Chancellor pronounced a sentence of self-stultification, and yet insisted that his opinion should be supreme. Had the offices of these Councillors been divided? Was the patronage divided? Was the salary divided? [Lord CAMPBELL: It was not worth dividing.] But the opinion of the Councillors should be taken on that, too. Thus, they and the Council had an incompetent Chancellor, and yet the incompetent was not bound to take their advice. And all this was done for an estate of 20,000 l. His noble and learned Friend, to defend his own ignorance of all that appertained to land, told a story of him which was wholly without foundation, The real story was this—that when Lords Grey and Durham, Sir R. Wilson, and himself, were on a visit to Mr. Coke, his lamented Friend pointed them out some sterile land which he had brought into cultivation. Upon which he (Lord Brougham) said, "Show us some of your lands that
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really bear some good crops." Mr. Coke rejoined (alluding, no doubt, to Sir R. Wilson and himself): "What's the use of showing you people from London wheat fields, when you don't know wheat from lavender?" To come back to the Councillors. He saw that on his noble and learned Friend's agricultural Council there were two gallant officers accustomed to plough—the sea [laughter]; and one of them to plough the land [laughter]. He believed that the additional Council would not increase the rental of the Duchy to the value of 100 l. a year, whilst he regretted to add, that having heard his noble and learned Friend's explanation, he was just as ignorant on the subject as before that explanation had been given. ["Hear!" and laughter.]

SCOTCH BANKING.
The EARL of EGLINTOUNrose to move for correspondence relative to the Joint Stock Banks in Scotland and Ireland Bill, and in particular, that relating to the North British Bank. Many of their Lordships might not be aware that under the old system of banking, Scotland had trebled her wealth within a short period. In 1845, however, important restrictions had been introduced—restrictions preventing the establishment of Joint Stock Banks of issue for ever after; and in order to know why it had been interfered with, he was anxious to see the correspondence which had taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the bankers of Scotland, relative to the progress of the Bill of last year. At that time they had been much alarmed for the safety of their one-pound notes; but they had been so pleased at finding them left untouched, that they did not carry on their opposition to the other portions of the plan with the vigour which they ought to have done, and a measure was carried which infringed on the system so long and so advantageously in use. By the Act for regulating Joint Stock Banks in England and Ireland, the paper circulation of Scotland was restricted to what had been the average of the three years previous to 1845; above that amount any issue must be based upon gold. He must confess that he did not think a case had been at all made out for meddling with the Scotch currency; however, as the mischief had been done, they tried to make the best of it. Had there been any failures of banks—had there been any distrust shown, or any disapprobation expressed as

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to the old system, by the people of Scotland, then probably some interference might have been justified; but the case was wholly otherwise. The paper circulation in Scotland did not exceed three millions, and the people had perfect confidence in it. There was, therefore, no reason whatever for meddling with the system. But in 1845 a fresh Bill had been brought in. Stirring events followed, and it was believed that that Bill had been abandoned. However, their old enemy suddenly and unexpectedly reappeared under the auspices of a new Ministry, and was passed through the House of Commons with that rapidity which characterized the progress of measures introduced at the fag-end of a Session. He had then lost all those who had acted with him in opposition before, and he stood alone, with the exception of the assistance he received from the noble Earl opposite (Earl Radnor), who had always been consistent in his opposition to any interference with the Scottish banking system. Upon the Bill reaching their Lordships, he had urged the propriety of delay; but upon the day appointed for the second reading, two gentlemen, Messrs. Tennant and Drew, directors of the North British Bank, waited upon him, and stated that the committee of bankers in Scotland were not only willing to withdraw their opposition to the Bill, but that they were most anxious that it should pass. Under those circumstances he refrained from inflicting a speech upon their Lordships, and the Bill passed without that opposition with which he had threatened it; but no sooner had his reasons for so acting appeared before the public, than he received a letter from Mr. Anderson, the respected manager of the Union Bank, denying that the deputation had ever agreed to anything of the kind. Other information soon came to light. At a meeting of the North British Bank, it was stated that the arrangements which the bank had made with the late Government, had been confirmed by their successors, and that the establishment could still preserve its character of a bank of issue. He was, therefore, forced to believe that while Her Majesty's Government were proceeding publicly with their negotiations with the Scotch bankers generally, they were privately treating with the gentlemen who had made the erroneous statement. What those private arrangements were, could as yet be only a matter of conjecture, and therefore it was that he wished to see the correspondence for which he intended
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to move. He thought such a course derogatory to any Government; and his opposition had been withdrawn upon a statement which turned out to be a gross misrepresentation. The evil effects of the interference had already been felt; and considering the misrepresentation to which he had referred—considering also the time at which the Bill was passed—he thought the people of Scotland had a right to have a reconsideration of the whole subject, and it was with that view that he moved—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, for the Correspondence of the Scotch Bankers with the late and present Governments, relative to the Bill for regulating Joint Stock Banks in Scotland and Ireland, which was passed last Session, and in particular the Correspondence of any of the Directors of the North British Bank; also, for the Terms or Conditions of an Agreement or Arrangement said to have been entered into in favour of that Bank."
The EARL of CLARENDONwas sorry that he could not agree to the Motion of his noble Friend, not because there was any objection to the production of such a correspondence, but because it did not exist. He had applied to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the subject, and, after a search, he had informed him that he could find no trace of any correspondence of the Scottish bankers either with the late or the present Government. He had reason to believe that there had been various oral communications on the subject, but no record of them had been kept. His right hon. Friend remembered, that when the Bill was before the House, he had received several letters from persons interested in the subject referring to former communications; but when the Bill, then under discussion, became law, he conceived that these documents had lost their interest, and he therefore destroyed them. He could not follow his noble Friend through the details of the matter; but he must beg leave to differ with him as to the manner in which the Bill had been brought forward and carried through Parliament. If he remembered rightly, the Bill affecting Scotch banks was introduced in 1845, and then it was frankly avowed that some arrangement was about to be made with the North British Bank. The then Chancellor of the Exchequer was told that that bank was then in an inchoate state; that from some reason or other they had not then been able to commence business. There was no secret made of the matter; no secret arrangement was made with that bank by the late Government; all that was

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done in respect of it was done openly and avowedly. From some cause the Bill was postponed; but notice was given, that it would be reintroduced in 1846; and it was at the same time announced, that it would be made retrospective, and take effect from the day contemplated in 1845. The Bill was accordingly introduced early in the Session of 1846, and read a first, and, he believed, a second time; but from the great pressure of business in that Session, its further progress was postponed. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on entering office, considering the Bill one of a most useful nature, and likely to benefit the people of Scotland, proceeded with it, but not in a manner that was obnoxious to the charges brought against it by his noble Friend. Notice was given that the Bill was to be proceeded with; and a deputation of bankers, not consisting only of Messrs. Tennant and Drew, but of representatives also of the joint-stock banks, came up from Scotland, and had several interviews with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His noble Friend seemed to accuse Messrs. Tennant and Drew of making some misrepresentation to him. [The Earl of EGLINTOUN: Hear, hear!] If they were wrong in their statements, most undoubtedly his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer shared in the error; for he laboured under the same impression as they did in making the statement. A legal point had been raised, and the deputation had promised to attend at the office of his right hon. Friend to meet the Lord Advocate to consider it; but when the day arrived, the deputation had gone home, and his right hon. Friend received a letter from Mr. Anderson, dated Liverpool, in which he stated that the deputation left the whole matter in the hands of the Government: under these circumstances the Bill had passed without opposition. He was sorry to hear that evil effects had followed from the measure. He could assure his noble Friend that no complaints had yet reached the Government from Scotland.
The EARL of RADNORthought the course they had taken in reference to the Scotch banks was a most unfortunate one; and, for one, he was obliged to the noble Earl for bringing the subject under the consideration of the House. The Legislature ought never to have interfered with a system which had ever given the utmost satisfaction, in order to satisfy a currency crotchet of Sir R. Peel's.
Motion withdrawn.

MEDICAL RELIEF IN IRELAND.
The EARL of CLANCARTY: My Lords, in rising to put to the noble Marquess opposite, the question of which I yesterday gave notice, respecting the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, in reference to Irish medical charities, I shall only preface it by such observations as I think may show your Lordships the great importance of the subject; for, I cannot, like the noble Earl, whose Motion has just been disposed of, say of Ireland as he did of Scotland, that it has occupied but little of your Lordships' attention; I feel on the contrary, that when so much consideration is given to Irish questions, it would be unpardonable, without very strong grounds, to introduce any new question relating to Ireland. But important as is the consideration of those measures which have for their immediate object the relief of the destitute in that country, not less important is the duty of taking such steps, by means of legislation, as may ward off destitution from the industrious poor. Such, I conceive, was the object of Parliament, in the several Acts that have been passed, for the establishment of hospitals and dispensaries over the country for the relief of the sick; and such certainly, to a great degree, is the effect of such institutions wherever they are in beneficial operation. They are designed to afford relief, not to the destitute, for whom the law has otherwise provided, but for the industrious poor; a class which should be kept as much as possible distinct from the destitute; because, instead of being a burden to the community, it may be truly said of them, that they constitute its strength, wealth, and very dependence; but who, though under ordinary circumstances capable of maintaining themselves and their families in independence, are often, in sickness, unable out of their scanty earnings to provide the medicines and professional advice which, promptly administered, might hasten recovery, and ward off the ruin and destitution in such cases commonly resulting from a prolonged suspension of employment. That such legalized assistance to the poorer classes—not fraught with any of those demoralising consequences to be apprehended through the system of out-door relief contemplated, as I understand, in an amended poor law for Ireland, but on the contrary, affording a direct encouragement and protection to industry, and tending to unite the upper and lower classes of society in Ireland, by the kindest sympathies—was intended to be

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fully efficient and impartial in its operation, may, I think, be inferred from the several Acts which Parliament has from time to time passed for the extension of medical charities. In these respects, however, the law has failed. For want of central superintendence, abuses have crept into the administration of many of the medical charities; in others there is mismanagement and irregularity; and of those which depend in any degree upon voluntary contributions, the benefit can only be fully realized in such localities as are so fortunate as to have residing in them, persons able and willing to give their money and their personal labour to the superintendence of the charity. That such localities should be rather the exception than the rule, your Lordships cannot be surprised, after all you have of late heard of the destitute state of large tracts in the west and south of Ireland. One thing alone is uniform, and that is the taxation: in each county all are alike assessed to uphold the medical charities belonging to it; and even the poorest occupier of the soil, himself perhaps suffering from sickness, or with a sickly family, although beyond the reach of hospital or dispensary, is taxed in proportion to the land he holds for the maintenance of these institutions, just as much as if he derived the fullest benefit from them. This is a fact well known to such of your Lordships as are acquainted with the operation of the grand jury laws in Ireland. Further, I would observe, as a consequence of the unsatisfactory operation of the present law, that it appeared in evidence before the Select Committee appointed to inquire into it last Session—and while acting as chairman of a board of guardians in the west of Ireland, I have since had personal knowledge of the fact—that of the present inmates of the workhouses, many have been brought to destitution by neglected sickness, or by having become permanently disabled for the want of timely surgical care; and the vast numbers that enter the workhouse for the infirmary only, attested by the overcrowded state of all those infirmaries, shows undeniably, that the poor have not, without the walls of the workhouse, the appliances of medical relief which Parliament designed that they should have. And it may be observed of the industrious poor, who are in consequence compelled to seek infirmary relief among the destitute, that they most commonly resort to this last resource, when they are in an almost hopeless or a dying state. Every year that the
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amendment of the laws so often prayed for has been delayed, it may truly be said that a great injustice is done to a most deserving class; that there has been a neglect of the interests of the industrious poor; and I have no hesitation in saying that while this is the case an injury is likewise done to the whole community; for it is undeniably for the interest of all classes that the sanatory state of the poor should be duly cared for. The subject has been abundantly inquired into; the frequency of the inquiries that have been instituted without leading hitherto to any practical result, have at length caused them to be looked upon as mere pretexts for delay; they have, however, established the fact that the law requires to be amended; and a reference to the several reports that have been made, down to the latest which I had the honour of presenting to your Lordships, from the Select Committee appointed in the last Session of Parliament, would show the concurrence of opinion, both as to the defects of the existing law, and the principles which should be kept in view in any measure for its amendment. The present state of Ireland, so far from justifying delay, is an argument for the earliest consideration being given to the subject. It can hardly be expected that when the diminished resources of landed proprietors are required to meet so much increased taxation, together with the urgent claims of a famishing population, there should be the same facility of upholding institutions dependent upon the voluntary contributions of the charitable; although I am quite sure that the utmost would be done to prevent their falling to the ground. What is wanted, and what is recommended in the report to which I have referred, is a complete organization of the country for the purpose of administering medical relief, by an increased number of infirmaries for the in-door treatment of difficult medical and surgical cases, whereby professional science may be at the same time advanced; by the establishment of fever hospitals in sufficient number, whereby the spread of fever in any locality may be at once checked; and by the proper distribution of dispensaries, whereby advice and medicine are brought home to the dwellings of all who need them. It is not a question of imposing a new burden upon the imperial treasury, or an increased tax upon any part of the community; it is simply one of economy and regulation—of economy in the distribution of relief, and of economy in the

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distribution of the burden. There is much in the report to which I would pray the attention of Her Majesty's Government; and I trust that if the recommendations of the Committee have not received attention, they will be taken into their earliest consideration. The question to which I request an answer is, "Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose in the present Session any measure with respect to the medical relief of the sick poor of Ireland, founded on the recommendations in the report of the Select Committee appointed last Session to inquire into the subject; and if not, whether it is intended to propose any other measure for the improvement of Irish medical charities?"
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEregretted that he was not prepared to give the noble Earl a satisfactory answer. The subject had undergone much consideration on the part of Her Majesty's Government, and a measure bearing upon it was determined on, and was in course of preparation. But he apprehended that Parliament ought to be called upon to give its decision with regard to the extension of the poor law before it was asked to consider any measure relating to the medical relief of the sick poor. At the same time, he was far from saying that the Bill on the subject might not be introduced and passed during the present Session.
House adjourned.