Lords Sitting of 25 February 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Labouring Poor (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl Fingal, from the Drogheda Union, for the Adoption of such Measures as will insure the People of Ireland such a Supply of Food as will save them from Starvation; and for Levying a Uniform Rate throughout the Districts of Ireland in proportion to the Costs incurred in each Poor Law Union.—By the Earl of Roden, from Shipowners of Drogheda, for the Adoption of Measures for Abolishing the present system of Taxation on Shipping; and from Carlow, and Wexford, that a Solemn Day be set apart throughout the United Kingdom for Fasting, Humiliation, and Prayer, for the Alleviation of the present Distress in Ireland.

CAPTAIN WYNNE.
LORD BROUGHAMinquired if the answer of Captain Wynne had been laid on the Table?
The EARL of CLARENDONreplied in the negative.
LORD BROUGHAMinquired if the noble Lord had any information as to complaints which he had seen publicly made against landed proprietors in Ireland, that they were availing themselves of the measures of relief in that country, and were placing their relatives on the staff of the works. If these statements were not founded on facts, they certainly ought to be contradicted.
The EARL of CLARENDONreplied, that he had received no information on the subject, but had no doubt where so many persons were employed on the staff, that some landed proprietors might have relatives among them.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHthought the noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) should take care, whenever he brought up matters of this kind, to be prepared with particular cases, in order that they might be specifically investigated.

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Considering the cry that was going against Irish proprietors, it was right that inquiry should be made into such matters, and, for his own part, the closer they were examined, the better satisfied he would be.
LORD BROUGHAMwas quite sure of it. The statement to which he particularly referred, appeared in an Irish paper, and was to the effect, that a landed proprietor and a clergyman in the county of Sligo had procured for their sons the situations of inspectors under the Board of Works, at a very considerable salary, and that in the district to which they had been appointed, only seven labourers were receiving pay.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEcould not say whether the case to which the noble and learned Lord referred, were true or not; but he could not see any reason why the sons and relatives of persons of property, qualified in other respects, should not be employed under the board in any locality in which they had no local interests likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of their duties.

THE IRISH LANDS OF THE LONDON COMPANIES.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYsaid, he would take the present opportunity of asking the noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham), who had laid so much blame at the door of the Irish proprietors, for his advice on a matter connected with his (the Marquess of Londonderry's) position as a landholder in the county of Londonderry. The London Companies, as was well known, possessed much property in that county, and he and several other proprietors held under them, by leases, many of which were nearly expired. In consequence of their position, they could not avail themselves of the intentions of Government in passing the Property Act, as those who held property in fee could. The tenantry were for the most part small holders to the extent of ten or fifteen acres, and were utterly unable to pay their rents, or even to support themselves and their families. He wished to know from the noble and learned Lord, if the London Companies could be compelled in any manner to put those who held under them in such a position as would enable them to borrow money like proprietors in fee. He could see no prospect but starvation for the people if the Companies did not assist them. They would not even tell the proprietors if they
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would renew the leases or not. There were also many estates held in trust with the view of providing funds, applicable to paying the fines for renewal from those Companies; but the trustees were allowed no discretion, and could not allocate any of the trust money to the relief of the poor.
LORD BROUGHAMcould see no possible grounds for making any distinction between those Companies and other landed proprietors; and the noble Marquess might depend on it that they could not escape, and would be liable in every case where the landlord would be liable under the same circumstances.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYinquired if the noble and learned Lord would give him a guarantee in case he (the Marquess of Londonderry), as a landlord, borrowed money under the Act, that the Company would be answerable for it?
LORD BROUGHAM: In answer to that, I can only tell the noble Marquess that our profession give opinions but not guarantees.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEbegged to remind the noble Lord, that the money to be advanced under the Act to which he referred, was to be repaid in twenty-two years, and was charged on the land, not on the proprietor. If the landlord made leases, the land was still liable, and it was upon the security of the land the money was advanced.

BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.
LORD STANLEYgave notice that he would, to-morrow evening, ask a question of the noble Marquess opposite—which he had intended to ask that evening—with respect to the course Her Majesty's Government intended to pursue as to the general business of the Session. They were now in the sixth week of the present Session of Parliament. Very general complaints had been made that at the commencement of each Session, and for some time after, their Lordships' House had no business of any sort or kind before them; but that at the end of the Session, when the Members were wearied and fatigued with their attendance, they were overwhelmed with the mass of business sent up to them. This complaint had been made Session after Session; but he never remembered one in which, in the middle of the sixth week, there was not one single Bill of any kind lying for the consideration of the House, and not one subject

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for discussion, except the notice which stood on the Paper for to-morrow in the name of the noble Lord behind him. He should also ask the nature of the duties intended to be performed by the Commission which had been recently appointed for the purpose of discharging some of the functions hitherto performed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
House adjourned.