§ On the Motion of the Marquess of Lansdowne that this Bill be read a Third Time,
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he wished to ask a question of the noble Lord, to which he hoped he should obtain a more distinct reply than he had done on Friday evening. The preamble of this Bill set forth that it was expedient to make provision for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland for a limited period; and in one of the last clauses there was a provision that after the 1st of October no warrant should be issued to raise a new rate for the purposes of the Act. According to the Act, as it now stood, however, warrants might be issued on the 30th of September, authorizing a levy of rates to any amount. He wanted to know, therefore, if the money to be granted on rates so ordered to be levied on any day previous to the 1st of October, would be applicable to the purposes of the Act at the discretion of the authorities, or if all action under the Bill was to cease on September 30th? He wished to call the attention of their Lordships to this fact. The Bill before them was a temporary poor law; but it was the intention of Government to introduce a permanent poor law for Ireland at an early period of the Session, which would be in operation before the 1st of October. The result would be that money would be col- 300 lected under rates in Ireland from the same parties, by the same authorities, for two distinct purposes, the one being for the temporary relief of the poor under the present Bill, the other being for their permanent relief under the new measure. He wished to know if there would be any objection to introduce some words into the 21st clause of the Act to define the precise meaning of it?
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEThe sole object of the Bill was to give relief during the period which must elapse before the next harvest. The 1st of October had been fixed upon as terminating the whole of that time. He apprehended it was solely for the purpose of levying rates which had actually been presented for, that the warrant would be issued; and it was an undoubted duty to issue the warrant when the object was relief. It was certainly not intended that the warrant should be issued for any now expenditure extending beyond the 31st of October. The intention was merely to provide for the expenditure already and up to that date incurred.
LORD STANLEYconceived, that the observations of his noble Friend (the Earl of Ellenborough) were well deserving of attention; and he did not think the case, as put by his noble Friend, had been met by the noble Marquess. The case stood thus—the Lord Lieutenant was to issue warrants requiring that money should be paid to the persons appointed by the relief committee; the sums so paid were to be collected by the board of guardians, and were to be paid to destitute persons according to the list sent in by the relief or finance committees. There was, however, no restriction as to the time for which such relief should be required. The relief committee would make out a list of destitute persons, and would give an estimate of the provisions required; the finance committee would then interpose, order the rates to be levied, and send up an estimate of the sum required, but without any intimation of the time during which the relief would be necessary; and then, in the end, the Lord Lieutenant would give a warant to pay to the persons named by the finance committee such sums as had been fixed upon as indispensable. Now, the effect of this would be, that at any period previous to the 31st of October, the finance committee might report to the Lord Lieutenant that a certain number of destitute persons were to be provided for, and that a certain sum was required to relieve them for twelve 301 months. According to this Act, there was no bar to the discretion of the relief committee, and no bar to the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant. An efficient change would be, not to alter the 21st clause, but to place some restrictions upon the power of the relief committees; to compel the finance committee to state what sum for the maintenance of destitute persons was necessary, and for what period, so many months or so many weeks, it was required; to provide that the warrant of the Lord Lieutenant should be only a fulfilment of that recommendation, and that this warrant should not cover a period extending beyond the 31st of October. If the permanent Bill were to come into operation within twelve months, the parties levying under the temporary Act would be distributing funds in different localities, and on opposite principles. He was sure that such a result was foreign to the intention of the framers of the Bill; but without some limitation in the temporary measure as to the time at which warrants might be issued, the two systems would inevitably clash together.
LORD CAMPBELLdoubted if inconvenience might not arise from the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley). For as he had put it, a warrant might be issued to run from the 30th September. According to the letter of the Act, as it now stood, there certainly was no limit as to time; but the whole principle of the Bill was to leave an almost unbounded discretion in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant, and it was not departed from in this particular instance.
LORD BROUGHAMdid not approve of legislating in the dark, where money was to be granted. They should state distinctly the whole operation of the Act, and it would be better to limit the time of the warrants to three months than leave them indefinite.
§ The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHthought the objection he had pointed out would be met if the noble Marquess opposite would allow the insertion of words in the 21st clause, to the effect that no money should be levied under any warrant to be applied under the provisions of the Act after September 30th, except for the payment of loans.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he would be happy to postpone the third reading of the Bill till to-morrow, with a view to consider the best means of meeting the difficulty raised by the noble Lord, whe- 302 ther by an additional clause, or by the alteration he had suggested.
The EARL of WICKLOWregretted the Amendment of the noble Lord (the Earl of Ellenborough) had not been brought forward at a proper time. As it had not been in his power to attend during the discussion on the Bill, he hoped their Lordships would allow him to say a few words upon it, even on the third reading. He entirely and fully approved of the Bill. He concurred with those who supported it as a temporary measure, called for by a case of urgent necessity, and who, not objecting to it in that light, would be utterly adverse to it if it were introduced as a permanent law. He would just call their Lordships' attention to the twelfth clause of the Bill. The Commissioners were to have the power of determining whether the sum levied for the support of the poor should be struck either on the union or on the electoral division. He did not see why such a choice should be given to that body. He was the more apprehensive on this point, because he heard that the principle on which this Bill was founded, was intended to be transferred to the permanent Poor Law Bill. If the provision by which the rating was made by the union, and not according to electoral divisions, was inserted in the permanent Poor Law Bill, a greater evil could not be inflicted on the country. By the present mode of rating, each parish had a direct interest in keeping down the rate to as low a sum as possible; but when the rating was thrown over the whole union, each parish was entitled to throw as many paupers as it pleased on the common fund. He thought that in the case of large towns, they should be formed into electoral divisions of themselves; and that when the rating exceeded a certain per centage, the overplus should be thrown on the union at large.
§ EARL FITZWILLIAMquite agreed that to throw the rating on the union at large would be most mischievous, though he did not quite go along with his noble Friend in the opinion that towns should be made electoral divisions of themselves; for this would have the mischievous effect of separating the interests of the town and of the country. He did not see why those landlords who resided in the neighbourhood of towns should, by clearing their estates, relieve themselves from the liability of maintaining the poor; and he was therefore inclined to think that for towns above a certain population, the rating should be 303 levied either on the entire union, or on some district larger than the union. He quite concurred in the opinion, however, that to abolish electoral rating altogether, and throw the burden of the support of the poor on the union, would do away with all incentive to the proper management of landed property.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELdid not think the difference between towns in Ireland and those in England had been sufficiently considered, the towns in Ireland being more populous—the number of houses being equal—than towns in England; and though it might be necessary to compel the towns to support the paupers in their immediate vicinity, yet the law as to the term, of acquiring a right of settlement, ought to be extended to three years, and not kept to twelve months, as was now the case.
The EARL of RODENhad but just returned from Ireland, and he could safely say, that from the suffering which he there witnessed, he thought the sooner they passed the Bill the better. He congratulated Ministers on the measures introduced by Government, for he believed them calculated to maintain the future peace and to promote the future prosperity of Ireland. To be sure they would change the face of society in that country; but was not this absolutely necessary? He considered the foundation of those measures to be that in which it was declared that the Irish nation should support their own poor. And to carry into effect this great change, it was essential to allow those having entailed estates which were mortgaged, to sell part of them, in order to meet the claims to which they were liable. The reason of the landlords of Ireland not being able to support the poor of Ireland, was, because there were many instances of proprietors in Ireland with rent-rolls of 10,000l. a-year, and whose actual income was but 2,000l. a year, but who were taxed to the same amount as if they had an actual income of 10,000l. annually; and therefore he thought the Government should afford some means for allowing portions of the entailed mortgaged property to be sold; and unless they did so, they would legislate uselessly. With respect to towns, he thought that where the population was very large, such towns should be placed upon the union at large; but where the population was small, such towns should be obliged to support their own poor. But he had no desire to throw wilfully any impediment in the way of Her Majesty's Government, to whom the great- 304 est praise was due for the manner in which they had acted under these most trying circumstances.
§ The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that the conversation which had just taken place, related not to the Bill before the House, but to another and even more important measure, which they were led to expect would soon be introduced into Parliament. He was not disposed to quarrel with the tendency of the remarks which had been made—anticipating as they did a discussion on some of the most important provisions of the Bill to which he had just alluded. At the same time, if his noble Friend (the Earl of Roden) had been present at the earlier stages of that Bill, he would have heard him announce that whether the taxation should be imposed jointly on the union, or separately on the electoral divisions, was a question entirely open for future consideration. In the present Bill it was absolutely necessary to introduce one form or another; but that did not shut out the consideration of the question when the other Bill came up from the House of Commons. He was sanguine enough to think that the objection to the proposed rating by the noble Earl (the Earl of Wicklow) would be removed, if, in the case of large towns, the electoral division rating was departed from, and the rate thrown over a more extended district than that of the town. In the consideration, however, of annexation of district as to rating, he hoped their Lordships would bear in mind what they (Ministers) held to be a most important principle, namely, that the parties subjected to taxation should be in some degree enabled to qualify and control the amount of pauperism to be provided for. He thought it most important that the landowner—be he great or small, or be he an occupying tenant—being all subject to the pressure of this Bill, should not only have an interest in keeping down the amount of rates, but should, by their exertions, their expenditure, and their care, have the means of preventing expenditure from running to that excess which it generally reached when relieved from the direct control of those from whom it was raised. He trusted that that principle would be steadily kept in view during the progress of that Bill. But when the noble Lord attached so much importance to the substitution of electoral divisions, he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) must beg to remind the noble Lord that the present Bill did not, by any means, repeal the clause introduced by 305 the noble Duke in the present poor law for Ireland as to the subject of in-door relief. For a certain time it was intended to give a certain portion of relief in food, and nothing but food; but it was not intended in any way to interfere with the important principle introduced by the noble Duke as to indoor relief. That question was open for the consideration of the House hereafter. As to the present Bill, he must admit that large discretionary powers were allowed to relief committees constituted under it; and that the relief committees would have the power of determining the mode in which relief was to be given, and how the rate was to be paid. Since the discussion had gone so far, he saw no reason why the Bill should be delayed beyond to-morrow; and he should deeply regret if the Bill should pass unaccompanied by some of those other measures which he was so desirous should pass in conjunction with this, because it was important to place alongside relief so administered good and wholesome employment. With respect to the Bill recommended by the noble Earl, for giving facilities to landlords for the sale of entailed estates in Ireland, he was happy to state that his noble and learned Friend upon the Woolsack was giving his attention to the subject, and that a Bill would shortly be introduced into their Lordships' House to give effect to his suggestion.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHsaid, that the best feature of the Government measures was their tendency to create a money remuneration for labour in Ireland, instead of the payment in potatoes, or in the letting of a plot of ground.
§ House adjourned.