§ The EARL of CLARENDONlaid two Bills on their Lordships' Table—the one the Brewing from Sugar Bill, which had been read the first time on Friday last; the other the Distilling from Sugar Bill, which was only now received from the House of Commons. Considering that the two Bills were pretty similar in character, as well as in their provisions, probably their Lordships would consider both together. Last night it was conceded that they might be read pro formâ, allowing the discussion to proceed when the Bills were in Committee. He hoped, before going into Committee on those Bills, to be able to prove to their Lordships that their provisions conferred only an act of justice on their West Indian colonies, without inflicting any injury on the agricultural interest. In times like the present, when grain was scarce and food high, the measures before their Lordships could not be looked upon as wholly inoperative, as by increasing the means of subsistence the means of relief would be also increased.
LORD STANLEYIt is quite true an arrangement has been entered into that no discussion should take place on the second reading of these Bills. At the same time I thought my noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) would have on this occasion abstained from stating the grounds on which it was proposed to maintain and support the principles of those Bills. If those Bills had been brought in for the objects stated in the concluding observations of my noble Friend, namely, for the relief of the present distress, and if that view had been wholly dwelt on, I think it would not be necessary to enter into the subject; at all events it might be done very slightly. Had it, I say, been a temporary measure, to meet a temporary case, like that introduced on 20 a similar occasion in 1804, there might be no necessity very strictly to scan its principles; but under the cover of its being applicable to a temporary exigency, which at this time exists, provisions have been introduced which may affect the various commercial interests of this country—the interests of producers of various kinds—the colonial sugar growers—the foreign slave sugar growers, as well as many others. Where interests so various will be affected by these Bills, there can be no doubt that they ought not to be passed without full consideration. I may say they are not measures of a temporary, but of a permanent character. Entertaining those views, I object to the course now adopted, in bringing in those Bills to be read a second time, without affording an opportunity of offering any objections to what must appear to be their manifest tendency. As regards these Bills, there should be a fuller inquiry than if they had been in their nature only temporary. Unless, therefore, the Government shall consent—and which may be done without giving any impediment to the Bills—to refer them to the consideration of a Select Committee of your Lordships' House, I shall take the opportunity, on Friday, after hearing my noble Friend's statement, to move that the two Bills be referred to a Select Committee; and on that Motion I shall take the sense of this House.
§ The EARL of CLARENDONsaid, that if their Lordships desired that he should make a statement, he was perfectly prepared to enter upon it; but he thought that it would be better to adhere to the original arrangement of not entering, at the present time, into the discussion. The reason why Her Majesty's Government (not under cover of the temporary distress, as the noble Lord suggested) made the Bills of a permanent character, was, that a pledge to that effect was given to certain interests in the course of last Session. As to his noble Friend's proposal, to refer these Bills to a Select Committee, he could assure him, that if he looked to the Bills before the House, he would find that they were very simple in their details, and that there was nothing new in their principle; for the introduction of sugar into breweries was not now first adopted. The two Bills, too, had been passed through the House of Commons without objection to their principle. Even the Scotch distillers did not object to the principle, but only desired that the same drawback that was allowed in the case of malt, should 21 also be allowed in the case of rum. He fully believed that the noble Lord did not desire to create delay; yet it was difficult to say to what extent evidence might not be taken, or to determine that there would not be delay. Upon the same precedent there would be scarcely a fiscal or a financial measure that might not be subjected to the same ordeal. It was, therefore, with great regret that he said he should feel bound to oppose the Motion of which the noble Lord had given notice.
§ LORD MONTEAGLEasked when the Rum Duties Bill might be expected in their Lordships' House. He was of opinion it might be referred to the same Select Committee.
§ The EARL of CLARENDONThat Bill had been delayed very much against the intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from causes which they could not control. He could not, therefore, tell when it would be before their Lordships; but he did not think the three Bills could be considered together.
LORD STANLEYI should say that these Bills are brought forward with a view to the mitigation of the existing distress (and when I used the words "under cover," I did not mean any offence); the ground, therefore, on which the Bills were brought forward, was not on account of any pledge that was given during the last Session, but they were brought forward to remedy existing distress; and that such was the case, was perfectly clear from Her Majesty's Speech from the Throne, in which Her Majesty said—
It will be your duty to consider what further measures are required to alleviate the existing distress. I recommend it to you to take it into your serious consideration whether, by increasing for a limited period the facilities for importing corn from foreign countries, and by the admission of sugar more freely into breweries and distilleries, the supply of food may be beneficially augmented.These very Bills were brought forward in pursuance of that recommendation in Her Majesty's Speech. They were brought forward as a portion of those measures which were to be submitted to our consideration to "alleviate the existing distress."
§ EARL GREYsaid, that it was perfectly true that there was a pledge given to the West India interests, when the sugar duties were under consideration, that those matters which concerned them should be looked into; but it was also true, that that could be done in such a way as to alleviate 22 the existing distress, as there was no doubt that such would be the tendency of substituting sugar for grain. In point of fact, he believed that the measure was one which could not be inoperative in a season of distress, and which made it important that it should pass with the least possible delay.
§ Bills read 2a.
§ House adjourned.