Lords Sitting of 16 February 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Brewing from Sugar; Distilling from Sugar.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Monteagle, from Limerick, against the Collection of Ministers' Money (Ireland); and from the Limerick Chamber of Commerce, for the Repeal of the Lighthouse Dues.—From Dublin, for the Adoption of such Measures as may insure the People of Ireland such a Supply of Food as will save them from Starvation.

IRISH POOR IN LIVERPOOL.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, that, with the leave of their Lordships, he would bring under the notice of the House some information which he had that day received upon the subject of the great influx of the Irish paupers into the town of Liverpool. A Manchester paper had been sent to him, which contained a long account of the results of the measures which had been taken to meet the exigency. Their Lordships would recollect that by the papers which were yesterday laid on the Table, it appeared that in one day of January, upwards of 24,000 Irish paupers were relieved in the town of Liverpool.
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The pressure of this was felt to be so great that inquiries were at length instituted, which inquiries were followed by a considerable diminution. But in addition to that, the assistant poor-law commissioner of the district, Mr. Austin, who had been directing his attention to the Irish paupers in Liverpool for some days, made a representation to the select vestry; and in consequence the following analysis was prepared of the immigrants and persons relieved in Liverpool during the previous ten days. It appeared from this that the arrivals were, of men 4,498, and that the increase in the number of men relieved was 2,631; that the arrivals of women were 1,755, and the increase in the number of women relieved was 2,811, or about 1,200 beyond the number of immigrants; and that of children the immigration was 1,150, and the increase in the number relieved 8,814. Now it was quite clear from these figures that the increase which had taken place in the numbers relieved was not occasioned solely by the arrivals of immigrants. The result of the alteration in the mode of giving relief was as follows: The

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last day on which any great number were relieved was on Monday, he supposed the 1st of February, when the number was 22,348; but on the next day, under the operation of the new system, which had been in the first instance instituted by the select vestry, and afterwards carried further in consequence of the representations of Mr. Austin, the number was as low as 4,906. This was attributable merely to more active measures having been adopted for the purpose of ascertaining whether parties had a just claim to relief. It was worth their Lordships' while to make an inquiry into the cause of this extensive immigration; because much was said with regard to the immigration into Liverpool, and the great burden which that immigration had inflicted upon the town, and also with regard to the circumstance of 4,000 ejectments having been brought in the county Mayo. And the inference which the public would be disposed to draw from these two facts was, that the ejectments in the county of Mayo and the relief of Irish paupers in Liverpool, had some connexion one with the other. But it was obvious, he thought, that nothing could be more erroneous—if it were not an uncivil word he should say that nothing could be more untrue—than such a conclusion, which was arrived at without the trouble of first instituting an inquiry into the facts. The truth was, that what were termed ejectments in the county Mayo were not ejectments; and the propagation of such reports must have the injurious effect of deterring the public of England from doing their duty—not towards the landed proprietors, but the destitute and suffering people of Ireland. He had deemed it right to bring this subject under their Lordships' attention, in order that they might see that the vast number of persons receiving relief in Liverpool was not so much owing to the influx of Irish paupers, as it was to the circumstance that the parochial authorities of Liverpool did not in the first instance take those efficient measures which they subsequently adopted for the purpose of preventing the impositions which had been practised upon the funds of that town.

THE CASTLEBAR UNION.
The EARL of LUCAN, after thanking the noble Earl for his remark in reference to the Mayo ejectments, proceeded to observe, that he (the Earl of Lucan) had been made the subject of an attack, or charge, or accusation, in what was called in
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Parliamentary language "another place." It was the practice in their Lordships' House, and he believed it used to be so in the House of Commons, not to attack individuals without giving them such a notice that they should be enabled either to defend themselves, or, if absent, furnish materials to their friends for their defence; but he had met with no such courtesy. He never heard that any such attack upon him was intended; he was never asked what defence he had to make: on the contrary, he had been treated with the greatest discourtesy. He would say no more respecting it than that he believed discourtesy to be more natural and more congenial than anything else to the habits and feelings of a certain noble Lord who had thought it right to make this attack. He (the Earl of Lucan) did not regret not having made his statement on the previous night, as it gave him an opportunity of replying to another remark of the same noble Lord. He (the Earl of Lucan) understood that he was now about to be indicted; perhaps, under such circumstances, it would be more prudent to withhold his defence; but he should do no such thing—the noble Lord might have the benefit of the explanation he was now about to make. He (the Earl of Lucan) was charged with three things: first of all—almost the last charge he was prepared to hear—that he was a debtor to the union, inasmuch as he had not paid his poor-rates; next, that he shut up the poorhouse, and kept it closed against the admission of paupers; and, thirdly, that he refused to strike a rate, and thereby prevented the relief of the poor. Now, during the time he was in the county, it was his invariable practice to attend the board of guardians as chairman; and if he was a debtor for rates, he had certainly been treated with extraordinary forbearance. The press had not always been very ready to give him credit when credit was not due; but he did not recollect being ever attacked for non-payment of rates. At the very time in question, too, he was threatening to remove the rate-collector; and by his (the Earl of Lucan's) positive instructions, there were 100 distress-warrants out in the town of Castlebar for rates, he having, in each instance, initialled the instructions. On the 22nd of January, when the Government was about to lay before Parliament certain papers relating to union workhouses in Ireland, the Home Secretary was good enough to send him some of them relating to the Castlebar union, and

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he hastened down to the Home Office, and stated to Sir G. Grey that the statements in the letter which he proposed to lay before Parliament were totally untrue, and the letter itself libellous. Sir Gr. Grey, however, said he was so far committed by some pledge he had given to Mr. P. Scrope or some other Member of Parliament, that every paper must be produced, and this among the rest; but that any letter which he (the Earl of Lucan) might send to the Home Office should be added to the papers produced. He accordingly wrote very hastily the following letter to Sir G. Grey:—
"I have just had the honour of receiving the papers on the subject of the Castlebar union, and I thank you for allowing me their perusal. Though chairman of that board of guardians, I am very far from holding myself responsible for the way that its affairs are conducted. I have too little influence in the selection of the officers, and can exercise but too little control over them when appointed, to enable me to enforce a proper and efficient discharge of their duties. I know that there has been gross neglect on the part of the rate-collectors; and I did everything in my power, by remonstrance and menaces, to induce and urge them to compel, by all the power of the law, the payment of the rates, a very large proportion of which I knew could and ought to be collected. At the expiration of the contracts for provisions in September last, no tender was made, in consequence of the state of the markets and the financial situation of the union; and from that time to the present, the house has been entirely provided by myself. I regret that any accidental disappointment should have been experienced, of which I am only now informed; and I can only account for it by the severe illness during the last six weeks of my agent, and through the great difficulty that has occasionally existed in purchasing meal and flour in the markets. It was communicated to me that the contractor for fuel had most unexpectedly failed in the performance of his contract, and my agent received my directions to provide fuel. Coals are not now to be purchased in this country; and I am assured that he found it most difficult to procure turf. Why the sick did not receive the bread ordered them, I am ignorant, but I shall make inquiries. It is quite true, that on the 21st of November last, I did, in the presence of Mr. Otway, state my objections to striking a new rate at that time. These were founded on the fact of so large a proportion as 1,100 l. or 1,200 l. of the old rate being uncollected (and chiefly from solvent parties), and a consideration that such a course would not only be most unjust towards the ratepayers generally, but most unwise and impolitic, as it would most assuredly in the end discourage, if not stop, all voluntary payment of this tax, already very unpopular. I confidently expected that ere this much of the arrears would have been received; and I indulged in a hope and belief—a belief that had not been discouraged by the assistant poor-law commissioner—that the Government would see the expediency and necessity of making advances on the very unexceptionable security of the rates of the different unions requiring them, and so,
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at a time of such urgency, enable the boards to give the most extended operation to the Poor Relief Act. I am satisfied that very shortly the Government will find itself compelled, from the overwhelming difficulties attending the financial condition of the unions in the west of Ireland, to give such assistance. I am, too, unprepared positively to contradict Mr. Otway, when he states that two-thirds of the arrears are owing by immediate lessors, amongst whom he names Sir Samuel O'Malley, Mr. Kearney, and myself; but I totally disbelieve that they are really due by any of us. This assistant poor-law commissioner has most uncandidly withheld that the rate-books are generally most faulty in this particular, and that the landlords are constantly, by design or mistake, made chargeable when the tenant holds by lease, or when there is an intermediate lessor. Lately, in the Westport union, I found, on examination, that I was not liable, in a single instance, to some hundred occupations that had been placed against me. The collectors of the Castlebar union received positive directions to furnish every lessor with a detailed list of the claims against him, and to insist upon payment, or the cause of objection in each case. You will admit that such a course would have obviated the irregularity complained of, and which, I believe, has been most extravagantly overstated by Mr. Otway, if he has not been altogether misinformed, as I suppose Knowing it to be the intention to include these papers with the others to be laid before Parliament this day, I think it due to others, as well as to myself, to protest against giving publicity to such a letter as Mr. Otway's, when the animus of this writer is so undisguised, without first allowing the parties charged, and, I believe, traduced, an opportunity of explanation and defence. Should this circumstance be as stated, the assistant poor-law commissioner has most signally failed in his duty in never having by statement or remonstrance endeavoured to bring the board of guardians to a proper sense of their duties. At this late hour, I am unable to offer other observations."
He was satisfied that of 60 l. due, or alleged to be due, by under-tenants of his, there was no more than 12 l. that could be said to be by implication chargeable through others to him; and of that 12 l., not one-third could be claimed from him. He was a large occupier of land himself, and therefore, paid a good deal of rate; but there was not one farthing due from him for any lands in his possession whatever; neither had there been a farthing due for months, for all on his account was paid a short time after the rate was struck. The next charge against him related to the shutting of the workhouse. He had been requested to come over here to make a representation to the Government of the state of the country; and after his return to Ireland, he attended the board of guardians at Castlebar, on the 28th of September. On that day every contract had stopped. On taking the chair, he was told that all the contracts for provisions had expired—that there was not a single

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tender before the board—nor was there likely to be one, inasmuch as there was not a farthing of money to pay for the provisions supplied. In short, such was the state of things, that it was mentioned by some of the members of the board, that it would be not only necessary not to receive further applicants for admission, but that it would be positively necessary to put out of the union-house many who were in it. When there was not a farthing of money to be had, and when, in consequence of the state of the country, no person would furnish supplies without ready money payment, he should like to know what would have happened had he not come forward and told the guardians he would relieve them from the difficulty by himself keeping the workhouse open for them? All he could say from his own experience was, that never had he been present at the board of guardians, and seen a single applicant deserving of relief refused it. Therefore, he did not understand what Mr. Otway meant when he talked of inadequate relief; and he gave a flat denial to that assertion. The Castlebar workhouse received every proper applicant from the time of its opening. It was true, that it was capable of holding 600 persons; but, until this famine occurred, there were only 90 or 100 persons in the house, and then only 170, because it was something distasteful to the Irish poor to make such applications for relief. The workhouses in Ireland always afforded double the accommodation required, and therefore a false impression would be created if it were to be supposed, because the Castlebar house was not full, that therefore the guardians were in the habit of refusing relief. Such was not the fact. When he undertook to supply the workhouse, there were 1,200 l. of the rate not paid. This was owing solely to the neglect of the rate-collectors, and he recommended the board of guardians to compel these rate-collectors to do their duty; promising, in the meantime, to supply the workhouse. He also advised an application to the Lord Lieutenant to enable the board of guardians to borrow money. On the 24th of October, a resolution was proposed at the board of guardians, to which he was no party, and of which he had no previous notice, to the effect, that as the treasurer of the union, not being able to collect the rates, refused to advance money, the Government should be applied to for assistance or advice how to act; and that from that day the board
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would not feel themselves justified in admitting any more paupers, it being only owing to Lord Lucan's aid in furnishing supplies for the last four weeks, that the workhouse had been kept open. He was now defending himself more than the board of guardians, because he thought that the rates ought to have been collected, and that in this respect the guardians were wrong. The workhouse was closed, not from any feeling of inhumanity on the part of the guardians; but it was done in the hope that the Government, or the Poor Law Commission, would in some way or other afford assistance. In the course of a week, he certainly expected to hear from the Poor Law Commission either some disapprobation of the step which had been taken, or some advice to some other course; but their Lordships would be surprised to learn that it was not until about a fortnight after that the guardians received from that body a milk-and-water letter, expressing regret for the step taken, and a hope that it might be retracted. On the 21st of November, Mr. Otway arrived, and favoured the guardians with a declamation about the horrors of starvation, and their duty; and said that the doors of the workhouse should be opened instantly. After listening to him, he (the Earl of Lucan) begged him to give the guardians some practical advice as to how the people were to be fed, if the doors of the workhouse should be opened. Mr. Otway replied that they should strike a rate. Now, it was perfectly well known to many of their Lordships, that this operation of striking a rate in Ireland, was not like striking a rate in England, on account of the subdivisions of property, and the number of occupations in the former country, where there was consequently great difficulty in collecting it. The advice, therefore, as far as regarded the immediate relief of the poor, was ridiculous. He told Mr. Otway, with respect to opening the workhouse, that until he told the guardians how the poor were to be fed, he (the Earl of Lucan) could not consent to it; because, if it were merely a question whether the poor should starve within or without the House, he would rather that it should be out of the House. He (the Earl of Lucan) also observed, with respect to striking a rate, that the guardians conceived that it would be unjust and impolitic to strike a new rate, while a large proportion of the old rate was outstanding; and that the having done so on a former

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occasion, had, in their opinion, deterred the people from paying. The first thing to be done, was to collect the rates which were due; and if he (the Earl of Lucan) had been able to remain in the country, he was satisfied they would have been paid. The noble Lord to whom he had alluded (Viscount Duncan), seemed anxious to know the present condition of the Castlebar union; and he could inform that noble Lord that the board of guardians was dissolved; but before there could be a paid board, which the noble Lord seemed anxious for, a second board must be dissolved. What the noble Lord's object was, he did not know. Perhaps the noble Lord was looking out for the honourable dignity of paid chairman to a paid board. One was scarcely prepared to be lectured by a Scotchman on a question relating to the grant of relief. He did not believe that in Scotland there was such a thing as a workhouse; but, at all events, this was not a topic for a Scotchman to lecture any other person on. Instances of the most niggardly relief were to be found in Scotland. He believed that the noble Lord and his hon. Colleague, had greatly mistaken the feelings of their constituents. They seemed to rival each other in abusing Ireland, and the Irish proprietors. Now, he (the Earl of Lucan) did not think so ill of the constituency of Bath, as to believe that to be the way to gain their good will. The vilification of Ireland, and the misrepresentation and misconstruction of every act of the Irish landlords, would not secure, he believed, to those gentlemen their re-election at the ensuing contest. He (the Earl of Lucan) was prepared to admit that some of the proprietors in Ireland—though he could scarcely call them proprietors—had not done their duty; but he could state confidently that the general body of landed proprietors in that country were making every possible sacrifice, and exerting all their energies in order to co-operate with the Government in affording relief to the people. He must take this opportunity of observing, that he very much lamented that the tone and language which were constantly used towards Ireland, and the people of Ireland, by the friends and supporters of the Government, did not meet with discouragement from the Government. He was convinced that when the calamity which now afflicted Ireland had passed away—and God knew when it would pass away—the language and conduct to which he referred, if it were continued,
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would awaken a feeling of enmity, of animosity, and of detestation, that could not fail to lead to consequences the most disastrous.
EARL GREYcould assure their Lordships that he was not going to advert to what a noble Friend of his in the other House of Parliament had said, whose speech had called forth the observations of the noble Lord who had just sat down. He would not do so, first of all, because he could not help thinking that this practice of answering in one House what was stated in the other—and that not even under that sort of veil or disguise which used, in former times, to be thrown over such a proceeding—but directly and avowedly, as if it was a speech from one side to a speech from the other side of the same House of Parliament—he could not, he said, help thinking, that this practice was most inconvenient, and calculated to lower the credit of both Houses of Parliament. But there was another reason why he would not advert to the speech in question, which was this, that it did so happen that he had not read the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Bath, which had caused the observations of the noble Earl opposite. But he did think, and he rose for the purpose of saying so, that the censure which he had so unsparingly dealt upon a person whom he (Earl Grey) believed to be a most meritorious servant of the public, had been altogether uncalled for, and was most unjust. The noble Lord had spoken in very severe language of the conduct of Mr. Otway, the assistant poor-law commissioner, for having brought forward against him charges which the noble Earl treated as calumnious and unfounded. Now he (Earl Grey) must say, that having read the papers which had been referred to, and having also heard the speech of the noble Earl who had just sat down, he was bound most unwillingly to admit—and with great pain to himself, but he was bound to state his honest and sincere opinion—that Mr. Otway's censure of the board of guardians of the Castlebar union was, in no one point, and in no one respect, more severe than the circumstances justly required. He did not believe that Mr. Otway had applied any of his expressions to the personal conduct of the noble Earl; he had no doubt himself that the noble Earl opposite had been guided in his conduct by a sincere desire to do his duty to Ireland, and to that part of the country in which his estate lay; but

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by the noble Earl's own statement—he wished to go no further than that—it did appear that the gravest censure ought to be passed upon the members of the Castlebar union board of guardians. The noble Earl had stated that he did not mean to hold himself responsible for the proceedings of that board; and he (Earl Grey) begged to observe that the censure fell, in the correspondence of Mr. Otway, upon them exclusively, and not at all upon the noble Earl. Now, without going into the frightful details of this dreadful case, there were two or three facts which he thought conclusively established that censure of the board of guardians, and that the measure recently adopted by the Poor Law Commissioners dissolving that board, was imperatively required. What were the facts that were admitted? First of all, that during a period of the most appalling distress, the workhouse of the Castlebar union, which ought, under such circumstances, to have been filled to the very last corner in which the poor could be placed, was not allowed to be filled, or nearly filled, with the distressed applicants to nearly the number of persons it was intended to accommodate; that admission which might have been granted, was positively refused; and, further, that for those who were admitted into the house, provision of the most scandalous and inadequate kind was made. It was admitted that during a portion of the last winter and the autumn, the inmates of the workhouse were not supplied with provisions, with clothing, or bedding, in the manner in which they ought to have been, and which the law made it the duty of the board of guardians to take care should have been done. But he was told that the reason of that was, that there were not funds; that the board of guardians deeply condoled with all the misery, but that they were totally unable to raise funds to relieve it. Now, under such circumstances, the board of guardians ought, in attempting to exculpate themselves, to show that due efforts had been made to raise the rates, and to place funds in the hands of their treasurer to meet those expenses which by the law they were bound to incur. Now, upon that point, what was stated? The noble Earl who had just sat down, had himself told the House that a very considerable amount of arrears were due from solvent landed proprietors. The great fault of the board of guardians was, therefore, in their allowing such a state of things. He
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(Earl Grey) thought that no hesitation could be felt upon the subject—the fault was entirely that of the board of guardians—they had the remedy in their own hands—they might have dismissed the rate-collectors and appointed new ones. It was their duty to take care that the rate was properly and efficiently collected; but, more than that, why was no new rate struck? Application was made, and recommendations were addressed, over and over again, to the board of guardians by the assistant poor-law commissioner, that a new rate should be struck, but without effect. Why, the noble Earl himself, in the statement which he had just made to the House, had mentioned one instance, on the 21st of October, when a new rate was distinctly recommended.
The EARL of LUCAN: The 1st of November.
EARL GREY: On the 1st of November, he meant. If their Lordships would look over the papers before them, they would see that the Poor Law Commissioners had two or three times repeated their recommendation that a new rate should be levied, but without effect. The noble Earl—
The EARL of LUCAN: Recollect this defence of mine is more in the nature of a personal defence than of that of the board of guardians.
EARL GREY: He wished to make no personal charge whatever against the noble Earl; it was only his character of chairman of the board of guardians which was inculpated. Well, then, he (Earl Grey) contended that a new rate ought to be struck. They had the power of doing so. Those who had had any experience in the administration of the poor law in this country knew very well that the ordinary and constant practice was, in distressing times, to have rates repeatedly levied. He remembered perfectly that in 1842—that period of extreme distress—new rates were levied frequently in the same year, each rate being larger than the preceding one; that persons, by the levying of those rates, were continually driven from the class of ratepayers to that of rate-receivers, and the rate became more and more difficult to collect. But it was not a reason for declining to impose the new rates, to say that the ratepayers were not able to pay. When it was found that certain parties could not pay the rate, a new rate was levied, and those that were able to pay were compelled to pay the required

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amount for the relief of the poor. Their Lordships would recollect the great efforts that were made during the last great distress of this country for the relief of the poor. Now, before the Castlebar board of guardians could take shelter under the excuses which they had made, they should have exerted themselves as proprietors had done in this country for the relief of the poor. Now, he found a very remarkable fact stated in the correspondence before the House, and which was not denied. It was stated therein that the workhouse in the Castlebar union was opened in August, 1842, but that two rates only had been struck since that period. The first was struck on the 2nd of October, 1842, to the amount of 1,061 l.; and the other in July, 1845, to the amount of 3,362 l. The greatest difficulty had been experienced in the attempt to strike the last rate: it was not until after repeated and urgent remonstrances on the part of the Commissioners that the rate was struck. Well, then, it thus appeared that in this district, in which many individuals of great wealth were resident, during two consecutive seasons of very great distress but one rate had been struck, and that the rate only amounted to little more than 3,000 l. Now, he happened to remember that during the years 1840 and 1841, when great distress prevailed in such towns as Stockport, when he represented in the other House of Parliament the town of Sunderland, the owners of property were rated at 20 s. in the pound for the relief of the poor. What a contrast did the 3,000 l.-rate only, struck at the Castlebar union, show! He doubted whether the rate at Castlebar amounted to 3s. in the pound; and that was the only rate that had been struck there for a period of some years; and it further appeared, by the noble Earl's admission, that even that rate had not been efficiently collected even from solvent parties. Now, he (Earl Grey) asked their Lordships whether, under circumstances like these, they could assert that Mr. Otway's language with regard to the board of guardians was unduly severe? The noble Earl seemed to throw great blame upon Her Majesty's Government for not having come forward to the assistance of the board of guardians. Now, he asked how, with these facts before the House, would the Members of Her Majesty's Government have been justified in so coming forward? Was it not clear that when the conduct of the board of guardians had been
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condemned, if Her Majesty's Government had come forward to aid them, it would have been a direct encouragement to those boards of guardians which were not disposed efficiently to perform their duty, and a discouragement to those who had made very great efforts to relieve the distressed in Ireland? for some of the boards, he was glad to admit, had by some means or other raised the money that was required, and did keep their workhouses as full as they would hold. But he contended that if Her Majesty's Government had come forward in defence of the board of guardians, it would have been a direct encouragement and a premium for misconduct; and he contended that Mr. Otway was not only justified in doing what he had done, but that it was his positive duty to express the opinion which he did as to the conduct of this board of guardians. He could not sit down without saying one word upon what fell from the noble Earl who sat close to him (Earl Fitzwilliam). He (Earl Grey) did not happen to be in the House at the commencement of public business that evening, and therefore did not hear the commencement of his noble Friend's speech. But he heard him comment upon the statements which had been made with respect to the number of legal processes which had been served in the west of Ireland—statements which were to the effect that those processes had a connexion with the number of Irish immigrants into Liverpool. Now, he (Earl Grey) was bound to say, that he believed there was a considerable connexion between those processes and the number of immigrants. From what he had been told, he did believe that a very large number of persons had not waited until they were forced to leave their properties by these processes, but had converted what little effects they possessed into money, and had emigrated from Ireland to Liverpool. That was the statement; it was a very natural one, and he believed that their Lordships would find it to be strictly correct. But what he principally wished to refer to was an observation which the noble Earl had made in connexion with those statements, and which he was convinced he had made inadvertently. The noble Earl said that those statements were evidently intended to indispose the public mind in England towards the Irish people, and to prevent England doing its duty to Ireland. Now, considering who made that statement, namely, a right hon. Gentleman in the other House of Parliament, and a very

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near friend and relation of his own, who was utterly incapable of any such conduct, he felt persuaded that when his noble Friend used the word "intended," he must have done so inadvertently; if otherwise, he (Earl Grey) most indignantly, on his part and on his own, disclaimed any such intention. But it was his right hon. Friend's most imperative duty not to be deterred by the painful nature of the facts and statements which he had to make to the House—it was his duty, considering his responsibility for the financial administration of this country, to state all those important facts which might come within his knowledge, and which had an important bearing upon the question which was then under discussion. It was stated by the noble Earl (the Earl of Lucan), and the expression was cheered by his noble Friend who sat at the head of the bench near him (Earl Fitzwilliam), that Her Majesty's Government had not discouraged, as they ought to have done, language inculpating the landlords of Ireland.
EARL FITZWILLIAM (and several other noble LORDS): Hear, hear!
EARL GREYdeeply regretted to hear his noble Friend again adhere to that statement; but he thought if any Gentleman would take the pains to read carefully the papers which had been presented to Parliament—to read the volume which he held in his hand—to read the series of papers relating to the conduct of the boards of guardians, the boards of works, and the commissariat—if he would take the trouble to read through the two volumes then on the Table of the House, he (Earl Grey) thought that he would find that Her Majesty's Government had, under the circumstances in which they were placed, done much to throw a shield of protection over the proprietors of Ireland, and to save them from the censure which had been cast upon them. He (Earl Grey) would, however, say this, that that man was no true friend, either to the proprietors or to the population of Ireland, who, in the fearful state in which the country was now placed, would conceal from them the truth. The truth, disagreeable as it might be, must be spoken; for it was better that they should know the truth now, than that, some months or years hence, they should suffer from the consequences of present circumstances. His noble Friend well knew that Ireland could not remain for any considerable time in a situation dependent
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upon the assistance of England; that she must help herself; that she must put forth her own strength and energies; and that she must not look constantly to this country; for if she did so, the time would come, and speedily, when public opinion in England would be far too strong for any Ministry, no matter of whom it was composed, and when this system must cease. In many instances, the proprietors of Ireland had nobly done their duty; but he (Earl Grey) must repeat, what he had before stated, that this was by no means uniformly the case. There had been much inexperience and want of knowledge — a failure on the part of all ranks in Ireland to assist and co-operate with the Government, as they ought to have done, in endeavouring to surmount this period of severe affliction. This was a truth of which he (Earl Grey) was painfully convinced, and, entertaining such a conviction, he deemed it his duty to avow it. But at the same time, he would appeal to their Lordships, and to those who had watched the progress of the debates in the other House, whether any Member of the Government had used one word in censure of Ireland, without expressing the pain with which he uttered such language? whether they had not gone as far as truth and their consciences would allow them to do, in defending and upholding what had been done by the people of Ireland? and whether they had not gone as far as their duty to the empire at large would permit them, in asking Parliament to be most liberal and generous in the relief of Irish distress?
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that the noble Earl who had just sat down, had not, in the whole course of his observations, addressed himself to the charge of which the noble Earl (the Earl of Lucan) had complained—a charge, by the way, which was one of the most cruel and unjust that was ever contained in a "blue book," whether of that House or elsewhere, against any individual. The noble and gallant Officer would have been less than a man if he had submitted to be held up to public obloquy in the way in which he had been, without coming forward to do justice to himself. The noble Earl who had just sat down, had most truly said that it was extremely inconvenient to refer in one House of Parliament to the proceedings of the other House; if the old usage of Parliament required, that the Members of either House should abstain from noticing each

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other's debates, the old usage of Parliament also required that if personal imputations were intended to be cast upon any man, he should receive notice of such charges, in order to be prepared for his defence. The Government should not allow any correspondence or documents to appear in the "blue books" without having previously inquired into the truth of the charges which they contained. There were several documents and private letters which ought never to have found admission into a Parliamentary "blue book." In the publication of them, the Government had been guilty of great injustice to the parties charged—charged as they had been without having the slightest opportunity of rebutting the calumnies of the officers of the Government. He regretted that the noble Earl who had just sat down had omitted to clear the noble and gallant Officer (the Earl of Lucan) from the imputations that had been made against him. Why did he not state to the House, that the noble Earl had not only paid the whole of his rates, but likewise been the main support of the poor in his district, and advanced funds to the Castlebar board of guardians for the purpose of enabling them to keep open the workhouse in that district? The noble Lord had said that he did not mean to impeach the noble and gallant Officer's personal conduct; he merely found fault with his conduct as chairman of the board of guardians. Why, would any one assert that if his noble Friend's conduct, as chairman, was impeached, his individual character was not injured at the same time? The noble Earl had said that Her Majesty's Government had thrown their shield over the proprietors of Ireland; but he (Lord Monteagle) could not allow that observation to be made without telling his noble Friend, and without telling the Members of Her Majesty's Government, that he, for one, believed, and he spoke in the name of those who were better connected with Ireland, that they did not require their shield. Let their actions be their only defence. But if Her Majesty's Government felt it necessary to extend their benevolent and sympathetic shield over them, he must say that the most ungenerous thing which they could do was to tell the people of England—"We have extended this generous shield over the misconduct of the Irish landlords." He would much prefer to have a distinct and clear statement of the charges that they had to bring against them. What was
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called "evidence" against the Irish landlords, had been put in the "blue books," without affording those that were charged the least chance of a reply. Such conduct was inconsistent with the first principles of justice. Evidence ought not to be received by mere officials, and submitted to Parliament by Her Majesty's command, without affording an opportunity of defence to the individual whose character was involved. Charges were made in these blue books against some of the most humane and praiseworthy officers in the kingdom. Those charges were of the gravest kind; they were to the effect that those officers had hallooed or incited a turbulent mob to commit assassination, although they were themselves magistrates bound by oath to preserve the peace. He most deeply regretted that such statements should have been printed in the "bluebooks," without affording an opportunity of reply. Statements had been also printed in them with respect to that man who had rendered such signal services to the people of Ireland—who was one of the most excellent men of modern times—he meant Father Mathew. The letters of that gentleman, which were strictly private and confidential, and never intended for the public, were inserted in the "blue books" without sanction. He thought more care should have been exercised in preparing such matter for publication; but, at the same time, he willingly bore testimony to the zeal, industry, and benevolence displayed by the Treasury, and particularly by Mr. Trevelyan throughout the correspondence.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATH, after the eloquent speech which had been addressed to their Lordships, would not rise to trouble them, were it not for one point on the subject of ejectments which had not been sufficiently touched on. When an accusation went forth to the world, and remained uncontradicted, it often took such a deep root in the minds of people as to make it very difficult to remove the false impressions arising from it. It had been stated by the noble Lord (Earl Grey) that the ejectments issued in the county of Mayo against certain persons had driven them from the country, and that they had emigrated to Liverpool; but it ought to be known that the persons who had so left the country, had carried with them what money they possessed—money which would have paid their rents; they, at the same time, omitting to give up the possession of the tenements they held. The

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very circumstance of persons having acted in such a way, showed a great dishonesty of principle. What could be more so than individuals to leave the country, still holding possession—a procedure which threw a great deal of trouble on the injured party in obtaining possession of property thus deserted? If persons of such a character left the country with money in their pockets, and presented themselves elsewhere as objects of compassion, such conduct should not be attributed to the proprietors of that soil on which they had resided, and which they had deserted.

BREWING FROM SUGAR BILL — DISTILLING FROM SUGAR BILL.
The EARL of CLARENDONlaid two Bills on their Lordships' Table—the one the Brewing from Sugar Bill, which had been read the first time on Friday last; the other the Distilling from Sugar Bill, which was only now received from the House of Commons. Considering that the two Bills were pretty similar in character, as well as in their provisions, probably their Lordships would consider both together. Last night it was conceded that they might be read pro formâ, allowing the discussion to proceed when the Bills were in Committee. He hoped, before going into Committee on those Bills, to be able to prove to their Lordships that their provisions conferred only an act of justice on their West Indian colonies, without inflicting any injury on the agricultural interest. In times like the present, when grain was scarce and food high, the measures before their Lordships could not be looked upon as wholly inoperative, as by increasing the means of subsistence the means of relief would be also increased.
LORD STANLEY: It is quite true an arrangement has been entered into that no discussion should take place on the second reading of these Bills. At the same time I thought my noble Friend (the Earl of Clarendon) would have on this occasion abstained from stating the grounds on which it was proposed to maintain and support the principles of those Bills. If those Bills had been brought in for the objects stated in the concluding observations of my noble Friend, namely, for the relief of the present distress, and if that view had been wholly dwelt on, I think it would not be necessary to enter into the subject; at all events it might be done very slightly. Had it, I say, been a temporary measure, to meet a temporary case, like that introduced on
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a similar occasion in 1804, there might be no necessity very strictly to scan its principles; but under the cover of its being applicable to a temporary exigency, which at this time exists, provisions have been introduced which may affect the various commercial interests of this country—the interests of producers of various kinds—the colonial sugar growers—the foreign slave sugar growers, as well as many others. Where interests so various will be affected by these Bills, there can be no doubt that they ought not to be passed without full consideration. I may say they are not measures of a temporary, but of a permanent character. Entertaining those views, I object to the course now adopted, in bringing in those Bills to be read a second time, without affording an opportunity of offering any objections to what must appear to be their manifest tendency. As regards these Bills, there should be a fuller inquiry than if they had been in their nature only temporary. Unless, therefore, the Government shall consent—and which may be done without giving any impediment to the Bills—to refer them to the consideration of a Select Committee of your Lordships' House, I shall take the opportunity, on Friday, after hearing my noble Friend's statement, to move that the two Bills be referred to a Select Committee; and on that Motion I shall take the sense of this House.
The EARL of CLARENDONsaid, that if their Lordships desired that he should make a statement, he was perfectly prepared to enter upon it; but he thought that it would be better to adhere to the original arrangement of not entering, at the present time, into the discussion. The reason why Her Majesty's Government (not under cover of the temporary distress, as the noble Lord suggested) made the Bills of a permanent character, was, that a pledge to that effect was given to certain interests in the course of last Session. As to his noble Friend's proposal, to refer these Bills to a Select Committee, he could assure him, that if he looked to the Bills before the House, he would find that they were very simple in their details, and that there was nothing new in their principle; for the introduction of sugar into breweries was not now first adopted. The two Bills, too, had been passed through the House of Commons without objection to their principle. Even the Scotch distillers did not object to the principle, but only desired that the same drawback that was allowed in the case of malt, should

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also be allowed in the case of rum. He fully believed that the noble Lord did not desire to create delay; yet it was difficult to say to what extent evidence might not be taken, or to determine that there would not be delay. Upon the same precedent there would be scarcely a fiscal or a financial measure that might not be subjected to the same ordeal. It was, therefore, with great regret that he said he should feel bound to oppose the Motion of which the noble Lord had given notice.
LORD MONTEAGLEasked when the Rum Duties Bill might be expected in their Lordships' House. He was of opinion it might be referred to the same Select Committee.
The EARL of CLARENDON: That Bill had been delayed very much against the intentions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from causes which they could not control. He could not, therefore, tell when it would be before their Lordships; but he did not think the three Bills could be considered together.
LORD STANLEY: I should say that these Bills are brought forward with a view to the mitigation of the existing distress (and when I used the words "under cover," I did not mean any offence); the ground, therefore, on which the Bills were brought forward, was not on account of any pledge that was given during the last Session, but they were brought forward to remedy existing distress; and that such was the case, was perfectly clear from Her Majesty's Speech from the Throne, in which Her Majesty said—
"It will be your duty to consider what further measures are required to alleviate the existing distress. I recommend it to you to take it into your serious consideration whether, by increasing for a limited period the facilities for importing corn from foreign countries, and by the admission of sugar more freely into breweries and distilleries, the supply of food may be beneficially augmented."
These very Bills were brought forward in pursuance of that recommendation in Her Majesty's Speech. They were brought forward as a portion of those measures which were to be submitted to our consideration to "alleviate the existing distress."
EARL GREYsaid, that it was perfectly true that there was a pledge given to the West India interests, when the sugar duties were under consideration, that those matters which concerned them should be looked into; but it was also true, that that could be done in such a way as to alleviate
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the existing distress, as there was no doubt that such would be the tendency of substituting sugar for grain. In point of fact, he believed that the measure was one which could not be inoperative in a season of distress, and which made it important that it should pass with the least possible delay.
Bills read 2a.
House adjourned.