Lords Sitting of 15 February 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Distilling from Sugar.
2a Destitute Persons (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Blandford Forum, for the Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—From the Temperance Society of Hexham, for the Adoption of Measures for Stopping the Manufacture of Intoxicating Liquors.—From Mountmellich, praying that the Assessments for the Relief of the Poor may be charged on the Unions generally.—From Thomas Callam, for Assimilating the Poor Law of Ireland with that of England.

THE CURRENCY.
LORD ASHBURTONrose to move for certain returns as to the amount of capital employed in railways, and as to the drain of bullion from the Bank of England. His Lordship, who was very imperfectly heard, was understood to say, that observing there was a large mass of Railway Bills before Parliament, he wished to ascertain how far the operations arising out of these schemes might, among other effects, have a tendency to deprive the legitimate commerce of the country of those resources which it would otherwise enjoy, and how far they might tend to embarrass the finances of the Government. Something like a new circulating medium, in the shape of bonds and debentures, interfering very much with Exchequer-bills, had arisen out of these schemes. There had also been a considerable drain of bullion from the Bank of England for some weeks or a few months past. He did not wish to intimate that there was anything in that circumstance calculated to create alarm in the country, or that it had arisen from any cause besides

1321
the natural course of things; though it might undoubtedly have been extensively promoted by the condition and circumstances of the circulation of the country. There was also an apprehension that, in some shape or other, Government would borrow a considerable sum of money (and indeed millions seemed to be talked about with great levity), and this, combined with the facts of the drain of gold, and of Exchequer-bills being on the verge of par, made it very important that all the information that could be given as to the general financial condition of the country should be furnished as soon as possible. It was the more important that their Lordships should have this information before them, as in addition to the railway schemes which had already absorbed a large part of the capital of the country, there were, he understood, new proposals which would require many millions more. The information he asked for was necessary, in order to enable their Lordships to form a judgment as to the propriety of giving their sanction by Acts of Parliament to the raising of the sums now proposed to be expended for new railway speculations. He wished to know what amount of railway debentures was in circulation; what capital had been paid by instalments; how much had been borrowed, and for what period, and at what rate. Their Lordships might then form an opinion as to how far this mass, thrown into the circulation, had a tendency to raise unfairly the interest of money, and pinch the business of the country. In addition, he wanted to know—if the Railway Commissioners could furnish him with the information—the general extent to which the Railway Bills in the present year were likely to go. He was also anxious to ascertain how far the directors of the Bank of England, neglecting Exchequer-bills, had become investors of capital in these railway debentures, and what amount of bullion there was in the Bank, so that their Lordships might have before them the whole system of the circulation of the country in its present strange and anomalous condition. No doubt, many of these railway speculations might be well founded; but yet the assent of Parliament might be asked for in respect to them to a much greater extent than it would be prudent at once to grant. In France, where there existed so much distress from the same cause as here, the Legislature had thought it prudent to suspend temporarily new railway projects, in order that they might be better digested and considered.
1322
It could not be less desirable that the British Parliament should maturely consider similar projects in this country, and confine its legislation in the present year to those works only which were absolutely necessary, such as the filling up of gaps between existing lines of communications, &c., not, however, at least for England, sanctioning the introduction of any new line. This would have the effect of leaving capital more free for outlay in Ireland. The noble Lord concluded by moving for returns on the several points adverted to by him, in reference to railways and the Bank of England.
The EARL of CLARENDONregretted that the noble Lord had departed from the regular and useful practice of giving notice before bringing forward such a Motion. The noble Lord had moved for returns of an important and comprehensive nature, and had accompanied that Motion by a comprehensive, important, and, in some respects, alarming speech. He (the Earl of Clarendon) was not prepared to deny that it would be useful to be in possession of the information moved for; but the returns appeared to affect so many interests, in respect to railways, the Bank of England, the public securities, and the financial affairs of the country, that it would be too much to expect that their Lordships would assent to the Motion without due notice. He trusted, therefore, that the noble Lord would name another day for the Motion.
LORD MONTEAGLEthought, that with respect to some of the information moved for, there would be no difficulty in furnishing it, and the possession of it by their Lordships would be of practical importance. With respect to the returns required from the Bank of England, he suggested that, except in a case of stringent necessity, it would not be expedient to ask from the Bank of England more than that which it was required to furnish when Parliament entered into a new compact with that establishment. He concurred with the noble Lord in thinking that it behoved Parliament to consider whether it was not their duty to stay their hands, under existing circumstances, with respect to railway legislation in this country.
LORD BROUGHAMhad all along been in favour of due deliberation with respect to railway legislation; but it was now nearly all over, and just as the steed was gone, they began to think of shutting the stable-door; for he perceived that a Bill, in reference to future railway legislation, had been introduced into the other House; but

1323
it was only to take effect from and after the commencement of next Session, when probably all the railway business would be over.
LORD ASHBURTONwithdrew his Motion, and postponed it till Thursday. It had been suggested, that the Bank of England might object to afford the information he required; but he thought not, because the Bank of England did not object to supply any information which was now asked for by Parliament. The noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) had charged him with making an alarming speech. He certainly felt no alarm with respect to the state of the country, his only wish being that the Parliament should be in possession of the information he called for.
The EARL of RADNORcautioned the House against resuming the old practice of interfering with the management of the Bank—a course which, he believed, would be attended with very pernicious results.
Subject dropped.

IMMIGRATION OF IRISH PAUPERS.
EARL FITZWILLIAMmoved the printing of certain returns from Liverpool, relating to the number of Irish paupers arriving in that port. It appeared, that on the 7th of February, no less than 2,585 individuals of that class were landed; and the total number poured in between the 13th of January and the 11th of February, was 27,012. On the 25th of January, 25,529 had been relieved by the parochial authorities; on the 26th, 25,525; on the 27th, 23,313; on the 28th, 24,000; and on the 29th, 24,100. He was bound to state, that during the last twelve days the number elieved, had considerably diminished.
LORD BROUGHAMremarked, that the average influx continued to be the same, viz., about 900 a day.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHthought that it would be desirable to ascertain what proportion of the individuals in question had arrived in Liverpool for the purpose of emigration; and what proportion with a view to the reception of parochial relief there.
EARL FITZWILLIAMargued, that it was advisable to act upon the suggestion of his noble Friend. During the last week there had been a very considerable diminution in the number of paupers relieved; but whether this circumstance was attributable to emigration, or to the paupers having spread themselves over portions of this country, he was unable to say; and it might be difficult to gain accurate information
1324
on the subject even in Liverpool. He had no doubt, however, that they would be able to ascertain the number of emigrants; and he thought it very desirable that their Lordships should have this information before them.
LORD STANLEYwas afraid it would be found that the number of emigrants was extremely small; for very few persons came to Liverpool from Ireland with a view to emigration before the end of March, or beginning of April. He feared it would be found that a very small number of those persons had come to Liverpool with any other object than that of obtaining relief.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONobserved, that there was a great deal of information in the body of the papers referred to by the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam) which it would be well to have laid upon their Lordships' Table, before any discussion took place on this subject.
EARL GREYsaid, he was informed, a few days ago, that emigration from this country to America, did not appear to have ceased at all during the last twelve months; and he understood that, since the commencement of the present year, between 6,000 and 7,000 emigrants had left Liverpool for the United States. But the information he had received was to the effect, that, by far the majority of those persons who had landed in Liverpool from Ireland had come to this country in order to obtain relief, and were not of the class of persons who were likely to emigrate. He was led to believe, from what he had heard on the subject, that emigration during the present year would be carried on upon a very large scale.
A NOBLE LORDsuggested that it would be desirable to have returns from other ports as well as Liverpool. He should like to know the number which had been landed lately at Newport, in Wales.
EARL GREYfeared that there would be no means of procuring such a return.
Returns ordered to be printed.

DESTITUTE PERSONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the Motion of the MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill was read. The noble Marquess, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said, that their Lordships were aware that this was the first of a series of measures which would be submitted for their consideration, connected with the great exigency which had arisen out of the state of Ireland. It would be unnecessary for him to detain

1325
their Lordships at any length; for as he had already explained on a former occasion the general principles upon which this measure was founded, it would be sufficient if he now stated the details arising out of the Bill, which were neither numerous nor complicated. The first thing he was desirous of stating was, that this Bill was limited in its character, and temporary in its duration. It was a Bill which, if it were made a permanent measure, would undoubtedly be liable to very great abuse; and which in his opinion could only be justified by the present state of Ireland, and by those circumstances which might be expected to arise in the course of the next six months in that country. The circumstances to which he alluded, he need scarcely say, were the probable insufficiency of the demand for labour during the next six months, and the extraordinary difficulty of obtaining subsistence for the people during that time. It having been, as he believed, the general feeling of their Lordships, that it would be convenient and desirable, as far as might be practicable, to suspend the continuation of presentments for public works in Ireland—liable as those presentments had been found to very considerable abuse, and intended, as they originally were, to last only for a limited period—the necessary result of that suspension would be, that for some months of the time before those measures came into operation, which he trusted would provide a greater amount of labour, and a more regular demand for labour, in that country than had been hitherto afforded, a very large and pressing amount of destitution would be found to exist in various places, for which it was the duty of Parliament, as far as legislation could do so, to provide a remedy. By the Bill which he now held in his hand, the Lord Lieutenant was enabled to appoint a relief commission, or rather a relief committee, for the purpose of giving general directions for the relief of the misery and distress which at this time prevailed to a most alarming degree in many parts of Ireland. He was sure, when their Lordships looked at the constitution of that committee, and when they knew it was to include Sir J. Burgoyne, whose experience, skill, assiduity, and judgment, had been displayed in the conduct of most important affairs, they would admit that it was as well adapted to discharge the important functions connected with the administration of relief in Ireland, as any committee that could possibly be formed. This commission having
1326
been appointed, it was proposed that relief committees should be appointed in different parts of Ireland, under the authority of the Lord Lieutenant, and that these committees should provide, where it was necessary, for the relief of the destitute poor. The guardians of the poor were in all cases to be members of the relief committees; but to them were to be added, by the Lord Lieutenant, the names of other persons, including the names of the magistrates resident in each electoral division; and to these persons was to be committed the power of administering the provisions of this Bill. The Treasury was to be authorized to make advances to relief committees, and to grant loans for the purpose of administering relief; and, in order to provide funds for the purchase of food, rates were to be levied, and loans might be advanced upon those rates. The Treasury were to be authorized to make advances of sums in aid of rates and subscriptions; but they were not to be confined strictly to any exact proportion. Although it was intended that the sums granted by the Treasury should generally bear the proportion of one half to the amounts contributed in the several districts, it was provided by this measure that the Lords of the Treasury should have the power, in wealthy districts, where it was reasonable to suppose that large subscriptions and rates would be obtained, to give such a sum in aid as they might deem necessary, and which would be less than would be afforded in the case of poor and destitute districts; and, on the other hand, that in those parts of Ireland where unhappily poverty and destitution had extended to the middle classes, their Lordships should have the power to grant, in aid of the rates, larger loans than they would do in districts which were more favourably circumstanced. These were nearly all the propositions contained in the present Bill; and he must state to their Lordships, that the measure was introduced solely for the purpose of meeting what was supposed to be a temporary exigency, and that its provisions were not intended to be drawn into a precedent. The measure stood upon its own merits; and he could not doubt that its provisions would be brought into exercise, in many cases, with most beneficial results. It would have been more satisfactory to him (the Marquess of Lansdowne), had he been able, concurrently with this Bill, to present for their Lordships' consideration a measure, the effect of which would be to stimulate improvement, and to increase the amount of labour, by

1327
the advances which it was proposed to make for the encouragement of that new class of improvements which could alone create an effectual demand for labour, and provide sources of employment at this crisis. Their Lordships were, however, aware, that delays had occurred which had prevented other Bills from being sent up to that House; but, regarding this measure as one of pressing importance, he had not thought it right to postpone bringing it under their Lordships' consideration, and he trusted they would see the expediency of passing it without delay.
LORD BROUGHAMdid not anticipate that anything like party feeling was likely to prevail with regard to this question on either side of the House; and he must say that among the extremely painful and lamentable facts of which every post brought information from the sister kingdom, from Scotland, and even from some parts of England, the fact upon which the eye reposed with the least discomfort, and indeed with comparative satisfaction, was the good feeling so generally prevailing; the absence of all party or personal feelings; and the general calmness, deliberation, and candour with which the measures submitted to their consideration had been considered by the Members of both branches of the Legislature. This state of feeling was worthy of men placed in such a crisis, and honourable to the Members of either House. He (Lord Brougham) must, however, say a word as to the time at which they were now called upon to consider this question. He felt bound to state his opinion, which he had shadowed out at the beginning of the Session, that Parliament ought to have assembled earlier in the year. If there had been nothing that Parliament could do—if the matter had been one which was to be left to the private operation of individual interests and feelings, the interests of the sufferers, and the charitable feelings of those who could relieve them—if only the Government were to act—and if there was to be no legislation at all on the subject—he could perfectly well conceive that there would not only have been no use in assembling the Parliament, but that such a step would have been inexpedient. But in the actual circumstances of the case, he would ask, why was Parliament not called together in November? As the remedy was to be legislation, why not assemble the Legislature? The same necessity which now existed, existed equally in the month of October; to a certain degree, it had existed
1328
even in the month of August. They were now in the middle of February; five or six weeks must elapse before the Government measures could be got through, and this deplorable necessity for interference existed just as much in the middle of November. He contended that they ought, therefore, to have been there in the month of November. He knew it had been said that it was better not to bring over the Irish Members at that time. But so it was better not to bring them over now. If it were not good for Ireland to bring over the Irish Members in November, neither could it be desirable that they should come over in the middle of February. Parliament might have met; there was no necessity for a call of the House; and the desirableness of the Irish Members remaining in Ireland, might have been a very good argument against a call of the House. There were some things he could not help thinking that the Irish landlords could have done just as well by their agents, and among them were the 6,400 processes that had been lately served in one part of Ireland, 4,000 of which were for non-payment of rent. This was not the principle upon which a noble Friend of his had acted; his noble Friend had not thought it necessary to serve his tenants with notices to quit in the midst of one of the most severe winters that had ever been known, and by this means to add to the afflictions of the people; in the midst of the pestilence, too, which followed, as it generally did, in the train of famine. His noble Friend, who was in the receipt of property in Ireland to the amount of 9,000 l. a year, as well managed as any in Ireland, had from 4,000 to 5,000 tenants, and the average rent of each tenant was not more than 45 s. per acre, while many of them paid no more than 4s. or 5s. None of these 4,000 tenants had his noble Friend found it necessary to eject for the 5s. of rent unpaid, when the persons were in a state of dreadful and hopeless destitution; while other proprietors, in the exercise of an unquestioned and unquestionable, and undenied and undeniable right to appeal to the law if a 5s. rent was not paid, had thought fit, having regard to the state of the country, and the famine, and the fact that the 5s. rent could not be paid, because the tenant was in a state of absolute and hopeless destitution—these proprietors, he said, had thought it fitting and expedient, and also humane and charitable, perhaps, to turn out these wretched creatures, when there was no food in the country, and no

1329
money to buy it. He had ascertained that 702 of those paupers who now crowded the port of Liverpool, had been driven by process of ejectment from the district to which he had alluded. Perhaps some persons might be of opinion that there would be no harm in bringing over such proprietors, while there was a chance of the Bills Parliament might pass doing some good. He wished to record anew his objection to any measures of relief that proceeded on the assumption of the doctrine, that it was part of the duty of any Government whatever to feed the people of any country, or to provide food, wages, or labour for the people. The duty of the Government was to secure the rights of the people and the rights of property; never to interfere with either one right or the other; and to smooth away every obstacle, and remove every impediment, which either bad laws, the violence or the wickedness of men or of courts, might interpose in the way of every man dealing with his property as he listed, and disposing of his labour where and how he might think proper. It was never the duty of a Government to interfere, except in extraordinary and almost unparalleled circumstances; and the proof of that extraordinary necessity lay upon those who recommended interference. The proof of the excepted cases existing lay on those who departed from the rule, who would have to show that they might safely apply the funds of the people to the relief of such a necessity, and that they had the right to give the relief; because they had no right to give relief to one at the expense of another part of the community. It was easy to say, let us vote millions to relieve the distress in Ireland, or to attempt to relieve the distress; but there must first be shown such a pressure of overruling and overwhelming necessity as forced the Government to interfere, whether they would or not. He did not mean to blame the Government. Very probably if he were himself in their position he should be unable to resist the cries of distress that were ringing in their ear; but there were positions, both civil and military, in which it was more difficult to stand still than to move, even when one knew if he did move, he did so at his highest peril. There were cases when it was more difficult to do nothing than not to do something, although the trying to do something were almost certain mischief. His next position was that the Government must take most especial care, even now, that in this overwhelming weight, this cruel and harsh pressure, this almost unbearable
1330
pressure, what they were about to do should not make the thing worse—that they did not do harm instead of good—and that would depend upon the character of the mischief and the nature of the measures intended to remedy it. He hoped he should not be reckoned too speculative if he said that it appeared to him hardly possible to frame or devise a measure the tendency of which was not to create more harm than it relieved, or professed to relieve, in dealing with the existing distress. The expenditure of the Government money had already done some evil. No one doubted that under the Labour-rate Act some good had been done; but it was certain that also there had been a great deal of bad management, and great abuses, when the very money raised from the people had been employed in spoiling the roads, in making good roads perfectly impassable. Parliament having made one step into the ditch in the month of August last, that was enough to make them pause—to require all the light that was necessary—lest they should do what might produce the same bad consequences, and worse. That was the moral he drew from the failure of the measures proposed at the end of last Session. They were all agreed that a great amount of evil had been done; and one part of the plan now proposed was to wean the workmen from bad and unprofitable works. They found they had got into a lock, and now Parliament would willingly draw back; but they could not. A great number of roads had been reduced to so terrible a state by the improvements that had taken place in them, that it was necessary to throw good money after bad, with the hope of restoring the roads to their former state; there could not be a more reasonable request than that made by parties who demanded that they should have their former good roads restored to them, instead of their present bad ones being continued and extended. Would not their Lordships all say, that if they could they would recall the Bill of last August? It was a lamentable thing to think that 500,000 persons commanded by a staff of 11,000 check clerks should have been employed for little purpose but to do mischief instead of good: he would much rather that there had been 11,000 men employed, and only fifty clerks to look after them. But how had these 500,000 men been employed?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, the destroying of the roads was the exception. The general rule was, that good roads had been made.
LORD BROUGHAM: No doubt it would be so represented. But admit that no great harm had been done in destroying the roads, yet great harm, indeed, had been done in destroying farm labour. The tendency of the Government employment was to induce labourers to leave the farm, where they earned 1s. 2d. a day, and go to the roads, where they earned only 10 d. a day, because on the roads they did no work at all worthy of the name, and on the farm they were obliged to do a fair day's work for a fair day's wages. All these things ought to make them extremely cautious how they proceeded in the same course. Unhappily, their course was in a wrong direction, and they could not stop—matters must get daily worse. His fear was, that if Government went on as they were doing, they would habituate the people of Ireland, not to stand alone, but to run in leading-strings, and then they would be unable, without great difficulty, to withdraw the artificial guidance and support. The Irish labourer would look to other means of employment than the tilling of the ground. Now, the Government ought not to enter into the labour market to conflict with the landlord, the manufacturer, or whoever had capital and employed labour in Ireland, were he ever so small a holder. The consequence of so doing would be, that long after the famine the mischief of such a course would continue, and would scatter its baneful fruits over the land. He did not mean to give any opposition to the Bill; but he would merely request the Government to give their most careful attention to the points which he had suggested for their consideration. He had seen the letter from Sir George Grey to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which seemed to be the best exposition that could be given of the objects of the present measure. But there were some curious inconsistencies in it. In the first place, it said that relief should be given only in food, and that the food was required to be sold at not less than the cost price; but, in the next sentence, the letter said that the food might be given away if there was an urgent necessity for it. No provision seemed to have been made for any medium course, when a man might have some money, though not enough to purchase the food at cost price; to him, therefore, although he had some money, food was to be given for nothing, in pursuance of the instructions contained in the letter. Because he could not pay all, he was not to pay what he could pay!
1332
Again, the letter proclaimed that the relations between the landlord and the tenant and labourer should be by all means restored; but the whole system it recommended went to render that restoration impossible. And the evil was so much the worse in Ireland because the Irishman had not the Englishman's determination to work, or the Scotchman's pride, which would not let him beg—so much so, that the Highlanders would lie down and die by their hill sides (and they were doing so now) quietly and contentedly, rather than incur the odium of begging. But then again the letter said, that the gratuitous distribution of food was not to be made without proper inquiry. Could anything be more vague or bootless than such an instruction to the Committee? When a man was starving, or supposed to be starving, he would be sure to be relieved without inquiry. He very much regretted to have to adopt a line of observation which might look like harshness or an indifference to the sufferings of these poor persons; but at the same time, he was bound to consider also the sufferings of England and the state of England, and the effect of these measures on the condition of England as a nation. Nor could he shut his eyes to the probability that, even although the evil might be overcome this year, there might be worse years to look forward to, and that the convulsion we should have operated in the labour market in Ireland, would produce the most dire consequences—consequences which would not cease with the ceasing of the cause of our exertions. Enough had not been done by those who were on the spot, and were more immediately interested; yet there were admirable exceptions. For instance, in one district in Ireland, people belonging themselves to the poorer classes, and who were themselves the objects of pity and commiseration, had given their money and their labour, to them their chief property. In that district, 170 l. had been collected for the relief of the poor, and 130 l. of this sum had been contributed by the small farmers, the priests, and the policemen of the district. What, then, had the landlords done in the same district? They had subscribed 40 l. But there were honourable exceptions. The conduct of two ladies, whom he should name (the Misses Gascoyne), was deserving of the highest praise. These ladies, who were surrounded with the comforts bestowed by wealth, went over to their Irish estates for the sole purpose of relieving the distress which prevailed

1333
there, and had since been constantly engaged in distributing charity and assistance to those in their neighbourhood who were suffering from privations. He highly approved of such conduct. They wrote, however, most dreadful accounts of the manner in which the Government money was abused, being much squandered on those who had not the least claim to it. He greatly honoured these charitable women. Did any one suppose that he had ever made any observation with a view to oppose the application of private funds to the purposes of charity? There were many who had property in Ireland, and who had acted in the most generous manner in affording relief; and amongst them he could not avoid on that occasion alluding to Lady Carbery, who, although in the possession of large estates and a large income, had reduced her expenditure almost to the necessaries of life, in order to afford relief. The relief afforded by these humane persons to whom he had alluded, was given under the inspection of those who afforded the funds; and the result of such inspection of the distribution of relief was to show that a large portion of the Government relief was in some cases given to those who ought not to have it, whilst the poor and those really requiring such relief were deprived of it. He wished to avoid all irritating topics in reference to a subject like that which was before them; but such absurdities had been uttered on the other side of the Channel, attributing the present distress to the Union, that he could not help reading a letter descriptive of the state of Ireland long before the Act of Union passed—before the destruction of that most virtuous, pure, and patriotic body—that most patriotic of all assemblies ever known since the days of Sparta, the days of Lacedæmonian purity—an assembly which, whilst it extended its blessings over its own country, did honour to the Irish name all over the world. Of course, he meant the assembly that met before 1801, "not a bow-shot from the College." But he had that in his hand which told a very different story. It was a letter (written in 1741) from Lord Chancellor Jocelyn to Lord Chancellor Hardwicke, in which he said that—
"The people were at that time in a very melancholy way. Two hard winters had undone the lower sort, who being accustomed to softer seasons for many years had neglected to make provision for their families; that the potato, which was the food of nine in ten of the people, had failed, and the cattle were perishing for want of fodder; that in consequence fluxes and fevers ensued, and the number of prisoners was so great, that it
1334
had been necessary to send down three judges—(so that crime at least had not been invented since the Union) one of whom had died of gaol fever, and the Attorney General, who had been sent in his place, was not expected to survive."
The letter went on to say, that they were in hopes that Connaught would have escaped, but things were quite as bad there; and one of the Barons of the Cork circuit, he added—
"Wrote that they were grievously offended daily with miserable spectacles of expiring wretches and the most noisome smells."
Now, no doubt the Union had produced that irreparable loss to Ireland—the loss of the Irish Parliament. [Laughter.] Yes, irreparable; for he doubted whether any law could have the moral potency to create any body nearly approaching to what the Irish Parliament was. But at the same time it was clear from this letter that such a state of things as now existed could not be attributed to the Union. It was just as clear that the present distress was not without example. A worse case existed in 1741, and yet Parliament did not interpose. The question, however, now, was the remedy. The people of England were taught to look on the people of Ireland as thrown on them for support. It was true they were told that whatever they advanced should be repaid. All the Irish gentlemen say, "Oh, of course, we mean to repay you. Only give us your money as a loan—of course we mean and intend to repay you." So said they all in public. But when he had privately put the question to some of them, "But do you think you will repay?" that was a very different thing. He had never yet met one of them who seemed to have any kind of confidence that they would repay. Indeed, it was more usual with them to say, "We have all the will, but we don't think we shall be able." Some noble Lord had said, "Our repaying is out of the question, but we intend it." When we in England wanted money, however, we could not go into the money market, and get it at the current interest on such security. And those who held this language seemed to forget how their estates were mortgaged, and that yet they contrived to command all the luxuries of life, such as all men in the same rank in England could not command — they could have their servants, their carriages, and their French wines. These were some of the complaints we in England made against those who came to ask for money; and as they came to ask for money, it entitled us to make remarks which would otherwise be indelicate; and

1335
we also complained that in Ireland they did not pay the taxes we did; for instance, not the income tax, nor the assessed taxes, nor the land tax. Of this there could be no doubt, that something must be done to prevent the scenes which at the present moment were going on in the west of England. It was well known that now as many as 900 a day arrived in this country from Ireland, and they were not emigrants who were going out to the colonies; on the contrary, many of them were professional beggars, and most of them denied having any property, though a few pounds were secreted about their persons. Much had been said at different times of the exemption which Ireland enjoyed from the burden of assessed taxes. To him it appeared that it would have been much better if Ireland had been subjected to assessed taxes; for, in such a case, that part of the United Kingdom would have had all the benefit without the evils of sumptuary laws. In a discussion like the present, it was a fact not unworthy of attention, that in Ireland a larger proportion of the land was mortgaged, than in any other country whatever. Out of a rental of 14,000,000 l., the sums paid to mortgagees did not amount to less than from 5,000,000 l. to 6,000,000 l. Looking, then, at the state of the landlords, he could not help feeling for that class the greatest compassion; and he hoped that relief would be given to them by enabling tenants for life to obtain money under due precautions—under such precautions as would be fair to those in the remainder; and if loans were given to mortgagors, tenants in fee-simple, we should prevent them from obtaining money to-day to pay off mortgages, with the view to-morrow of negotiating fresh loans and creating new mortgages. It was the duty of the House to protect the remainderman against the lifeholder, and the mortgagor against a repetition of imprudence; and he hoped that duty would not be neglected. In doing a generous action, nothing was more painful, nothing more indelicate, than to reproach the object of one's bounty by saying that he had brought all the misery that he was suffering upon himself. But such an observation applied to the man, and not to the lawgiver. He stood there not in the character of one man who proposed to assist his fellow-man, but as a trustee for the public; and the public did not propose to help one, but many; therefore the rules of generosity and of delicate feeling which ought to govern individual
1336
intercourse must be put out of view in dealing with national funds to be applied to national relief. The Legislature was interposing between the labourer and his employer for the benefit of both. With these observations he should leave the Bill in the hands of their Lordships.
The EARL of LUCANrose to inquire from the noble and learned Lord near him, upon what authority he stated the number of ejectments which took place in Mayo as upwards of 6,000?
LORD BROUGHAMreplied, that the authority was an official return, quoted in the House of Commons by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The EARL of LUCANsaid, that there were a large number of processes returned at the sessions of Ballina; but these were not ejectments from land; and his noble and learned Friend did not appear to understand that circumstance. He (the Earl of Lucan) scarcely ever met an Englishman who understood anything about Ireland; and he believed that but few Englishmen knew so little about it as the noble and learned Lord. Every one acquainted with the condition of Ireland was aware that those processes were issued at the instance of the poor middleman against persons who held ground in that very minutely divided system called conacre. The noble and learned Lord expressed the great pleasure which he felt in witnessing the unanimity of good feeling that prevailed amongst all parties on the subject of the measures for the relief of Ireland; but he (the Earl of Lucan) would say, that he never heard a speech of a more acrimonious character, both as regarded Irish landlords and everything connected with Ireland, than the speech of the noble and learned Lord. He hoped that the House did not believe that these processes were ejectments — that 4,000 ejectments had been issued; and, for his part, he did not believe one word of it.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that of the number of processes, namely, 6,300, there were 4,000 for rent due; and one might naturally think that such were ejectments, when such a fact was stated as a cause of the influx of Irish paupers into Liverpool.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHremarked that if the proceedings had been undertaken by landlords, they would have been by civil bill process, so that the distinction was obvious.
LORD STANLEY: My Lords, it is not my intention to offer any objection to the passing of this Bill, which is but a temporary measure, of which, regarding it in

1337
that sense, I am bound to say that it violates many of the rules of political economy and of ordinary produce. A temporary measure it is; and if it were anything but a temporary measure, brought forward to meet the pressure of extreme necessity and severe calamity, such as prevents us from entertaining any consideration but that of providing for the present necessity, and preventing a large portion of the people of Ireland from perishing by famine—if under any other circumstances a Bill such as that which now lies upon your Lordships' Table were brought forward, so far from receiving the unanimous sanction of this or the other House of Parliament, it would be very difficult to find a Member of either House who would undertake the responsibility of supporting it. I beg now to call the attention of your Lordships to some of the provisions of the Bill, not in the shape of an objection to the Bill, which, as I have before remarked, is only temporary, but merely for the purpose of showing your Lordships—especially after the speech of my noble and learned Friend behind me (Lord Brougham), who dealt in too indiscriminate a censure on the character of Irish proprietors—the condition of those proprietors, and because I wish the country to understand the position which those landlords and proprietors occupy as regards the measures proposed for the relief of the disasters in Ireland, and the taxation which is to be imposed under the provisions of this Bill. Never, I believe, on any former occasion has such unlimited, unconstitutional, and absolute power been given over local taxation, as that which is to be given by the Bill before us—power of local taxation, and absolutely unrestricted power over the public Treasury—power without stint or control in the Executive Government. In the first instance, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is by this Bill authorized to appoint relief committees wherever he thinks proper, and the Commissioners are to have power of appointing officers and a staff as large as may be required by the emergency, including the appointment of inspectors. The first duty to be performed in carrying this Bill into operation, is the issue of an order by the Lord Lieutenant, to the effect that in any electoral district or division in which the Lord Lieutenant shall think that such a course may be necessary, a committee should be appointed, called a relief committee, that committee to consist, with the exception of the resident justices of the district, and the elected guardians, of persons
1338
nominated at the sole will and pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant. Thus this body may be formed in such a manner as to exclude the principal landed proprietors, and to consist mainly of those appointed, as I have already observed, at the will and pleasure of the Lord Lieutenant. Let the House now look at the power that is given to these bodies, from which the landlords are excluded. They are empowered to form a list of such and so many persons as may seem to them deserving and in want of aid from any fund whatever which may happen to be placed at the disposal of the Government; and such committees possess unbounded power in authorizing the application of money for immediate relief. Upon those proceedings it has been said that there is a check—that there is a check in the Finance Committee—a check in the local authorities; but it should be remembered that if the Lord Lieutenant possesses the power of altering the amounts granted, he of course possesses the power of increasing as well as that of diminishing; and, as I before said, the Lord Lieutenant is in no manner restricted with respect to the appointment of the relief committees. He may select whomsoever he chooses—he might select men who do not possess a shilling's worth of property in the district—he may select men who by their votes and proceedings in the committee will not be responsible for one farthing of the money to be expended; and yet a proposition so extraordinary has been unanimously consented to by the Irish representatives in the other House, and by the Irish Peers, merely on consideration of the present distress: so deep is their sense of the present emergency, that they agreed at once to invest the Government with unlimited powers. It has often been said that they are thoughtless and improvident. No one, however, can deny that they have now manifested an utter disregard of selfish considerations—that in a manner the most reckless they are willing to sacrifice their own interest to provide for the wants of the poor. My Lords, I say that the manner in which they have consented to place their whole property in the hands of an irresponsible tribunal, and to support the Government without distinction of party, giving it the whole control of and power of taxing their properties for the relief of the distress, not merely on their own properties, but in the immediate neighbourhood of the districts in which they hold property, ought to convince us that this a moment of all others when the Irish landlords

1339
do not deserve to have it imputed to them that they are indifferent to the sufferings of the people, or that they are unwilling to take upon themselves the full amount of the burdens for which they ought to be responsible. There is another extraordinary power in this Bill, which affects not only the Irish landlords but the British public, namely, giving to the Executive, for the first time, I believe, a power to dispose of the public money in the relief of the distress; for although the sum to be given by way of loan is limited to 300,000 l., there is no limit fixed to the extent to which the Commissioners of the Treasury may advance grants in aid of contributions.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEand EARL GREY interposed, observing, that the power of granting money was limited by the grants which, from time to time, Parliament might vote for that purpose.
LORD STANLEYresumed: It is true that in the 17th clause, the power given to the Treasury is to grant money according to the votes of Parliament, but no greater power could be given; so far I am in error in saying that the power of the Treasury is unlimited. This Bill I look upon to be not only of a most exceptional, but of a most exceptionable character; it violates the rules of political economy; and, to some extent agreeing in the observations of my noble and learned Friend, I may add, that it is possible it may leave behind all the old evils, notwithstanding all the good which it may do in relieving the present necessity. But all those considerations must be overlooked. Your Lordships are prepared to overlook them; and the other House has wisely made them yield before the paramount consideration that the people of Ireland must not be allowed to starve, if the responsibility of England and of Ireland can prevent it. And I say, my Lords, that that consideration, and none other, could have justified the introduction of this Bill. The powers granted by it are, with regard to the public purse, almost unlimited—with regard to the local taxation of Ireland, absolutely unlimited; and I say it is to the credit of the Irish proprietors that there has not been one word of complaint uttered by any one of them—so far, at least, as I have heard—of the extent to which their properties are likely to be incumbered by the irresponsible authority of the Executive conferred by this Bill. There is one provision of this Bill, however, which I should say is even more objectionable than any other.
1340
It is one which gives a power never before vested in any irresponsible body, not only of fixing the taxation for the relief of particular districts, but of declaring who are the persons that shall be called upon to pay. If it were said, "There shall be the power in the Lord Lieutenant to prescribe in such a manner as that every individual proprietor shall provide for all the destitute who shall be on his property, to the extent to which that property shall go," that provision, strong as it would be, would be infinitely less objectionable and less dangerous than that which gives to the Lord Lieutenant the power of saying, "A shall pay for A's poor, or B shall pay for B's poor, or A and B together shall pay for A and B's poor;" with the further power of saying, as he has, "A, B, and C being together, A, B, and C shall pay conjointly for the poor of that district in which C may not be responsible by the inhabitancy of one poor person." That is a great power for the law to exercise; but it is infinitely greater when it is placed in the hands of one person. I do not, from my knowledge of my noble Friend the present Lord Lieutenant, doubt that this power will be properly exercised: but it is an enormous power to vest in any officer. But, my Lords, objectionable in so many points as this Bill is, I had rather that the responsibility should be left altogether with Her Majesty's Government, than that your Lordships should attempt to alter or materially to amend this Bill. I would rather let it be said, "Those are the powers which the Government has asked for—those powers in a great national emergency Her Majesty's Government deem indispensable; they ask for our confidence—we give it them to the fullest and most unlimited extent." And, for my own part, whilst I do not say that many parts of the Bill might not be improved, I think that, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, and the Bill being only of temporary duration—being intended to last only for eight months to come—I do think, I say, it would be infinitely better that the Bill should pass in the form it is proposed by the Government, than that your Lordships should attempt to amend that, which in its whole essence, and in the whole of its provisions, is so exceptional, that it is difficult to say to what particulars your amendments should refer. What I principally rose for, however, was to express an urgent hope, that, in proportion to the readiness which Irish Members and Irish proprietors, and the two Houses of Parliament, have

1341
shown to meet the views of the Government in legislating for an immediate remedy for a temporary, but most formidable emergency, just in the same proportion will be the caution with which the Government will approach the subject of a more permanent provision for Ireland. The evil that may be done by improvident legislation for the next eight months, may not be inconsiderable; but the evil you will do will be far greater, if you introduce and try to press upon Ireland measures for the permanent relief of the people, which are at variance with the feelings, adverse to the opinions, and condemned by the judgment of those of the educated and intelligent classes who know most of Ireland, and on whom the burden of taxation is about to fall. Depend upon it, my Lords, nothing can be more fatal than the passing by the British Parliament of a measure of poor-law relief, condemned by the representatives of the people of Ireland. I trust that, although this question is not now before your Lordships, I may be permitted—in no spirit of hostility, but rather with the view of making suggestions on points with regard to which I think the greatest consideration will be required—to suggest three or four provisions, which, as I think, ought to be—but which, as it appears to me, are not—borne in mind in providing a permanent poor law for Ireland. My Lords, you are about, by the poor law you are seeking to introduce, for the first time to confer an absolute right of relief. [The Marquess of LANSDOWNE: No!] Pardon me, it is so, unless some alteration has been made in the first clause of the Bill. You are about to confer an absolute right to relief. [The Marquess of LANSDOWNE: No!] My noble Friend must misunderstand me. By the Bill as it at present stands, boards of guardians in the different unions of Ireland are not only "authorized and empowered," but they are "authorized and required" to make provision for all persons permanently disabled, infirm, and so forth, either within or without the workhouse, as may seem best. Now, the present law gives to boards of guardians permission to relieve, but within the workhouse only; but the Bill you are about to introduce requires the guardians to relieve either within or without the workhouse. I think, therefore, my Lords, I am not wrong when I state that with regard to the permanently disabled, aged, or infirm, you are about to confer a right to relief which they do not possess at present. For my own part, though I know how heavy a burden
1342
even in that case may be thrown upon Ireland, yet I think the provision a wise one, and one to which for a moment I should not seek to object. But you are going further, and by the present Bill you are authorizing provision to be made for the able-bodied either within, or in certain cases without, the doors of the workhouse—you are authorizing the Poor Law Commissioners to require the board of guardians in certain cases to provide for the able-bodied out of the workhouse. I am not arguing that provision now. It may be a necessary one; but it is one on which much is to be said—one that must be watched with the greatest possible caution—one that has a tendency more than any other to extend and increase indefinitely not only the pressure of the poor rate itself, but to encourage the unfortunate tendency on the part of the Irish people to prefer relief without labour, to an independent subsistence derived from labour. Now the point to which I wish to call your Lordships' attention is this. You are about to lay a very heavy burden upon the land of Ireland; you are about to require that the land of Ireland shall support the great body of its destitute poor. It is not unworthy of your Lordships, and I trust it will not be lost sight of by Her Majesty's Government, to consider whether those provisions which under the limited amount of relief now granted, may have been found wise, safe, and sufficient, with regard to the constitution of boards of guardians, may not be equally unwise and unsafe when we come to grant a much more extended aid, and impose so much heavier burdens; and I am sure your Lordships will see that whilst you are imposing upon Ireland the full amount, or nearly the full amount, of the burden which England is called upon to bear, you are bound in fairness and candour to give to Ireland the same protection against waste and abuse which has been given to England. There are two points in which the Irish poor law essentially differs from the English law with regard to the constitution of the boards of guardians. In the first place, the condition of things to start with is very different, because, unhappily, property in Ireland is divided much between the very high and the very low; and that class which in England forms the most important constituent in boards of guardians, namely, the middling and substantial farmer, is just the class in which Ireland is most deficient. Then, if the power devolves, as it does in Ireland in a great measure, on the lower and poorer

1343
classes—on a class little above the labourers themselves—it may be well for your Lordships to consider whether it is wise that there should be interposed, for the sake of prudence against waste and abuse, a less security than is offered in England by the presence of ex-officio guardians. And yet the law as it stands in Ireland limits the number of ex-officio guardians (who, from their position, must necessarily be men of some property), whilst in England the number is unlimited. Another point to be considered is, that the weight of the poor law in Ireland falls rather upon the landlord than upon the occupier. It has been said the landlord is the proper person on whom the burden should fall; and, ultimately indeed, lay it where you will, he is the person on whom it must fall. But when you are about to provide for the poor from the funds of the parish, above all it is most necessary that those who are to be most affected by the tax shall have a preponderating voice in the relief that is to be given; for if your boards of guardians consist of small farmers, those men paying not above one-third of the amount of taxation, whilst the remaining two-thirds fall upon the landlords, I am afraid in many cases there will be a greater temptation to profuse expenditure of the rates, and less inducement for the due and proper management of them, than there would be if the pressure fell more upon themselves, and that serious evils will be likely to result from it. The great object your Lordships should have in view in Ireland should be to raise a class of farmers who shall be themselves employers of labour. Inducements should be held out to the farmers to employ labour; for to say that the landlords can do it to the extent required if their land is portioned out amongst a large number of pauperised occupiers, is to say what is consistent neither with common sense nor experience. Just in proportion as you relieve the farmer from the pressure of the taxation which will be caused by throwing hands out of work, so do you hold out an inducement to him to throw hands out of work, and rather to trust to obtain labour at a cheap rate out of the poor rates. But if the pressure, in the first instance, of the rates which he has a voice in raising, fell directly on himself, that very pressure would be the most wholesome and the only safe check, in my judgment, to the improvident expenditure which a different system of poor law would induce in Ireland. Now, my Lords, whatever may be said against Irish landlords, I am sure there is more justice and good
1344
sense in England than to seek, under the pressure of a cry, or under the belief that they or their fathers may have neglected their proper duty, to impose on them burdens which under similar circumstances would not be borne in England, and to say, "You shall have no voice in assessing the rates—you, who pay them, shall have them laid on you by small farmers, nearly altogether exempt from payment of them—you shall not have the means of employing labour, and the farmer shall have no inducement to employ labour; but by the votes of those who will thereby be relieved from the burden which they impose on you, your estates may be to a great extent confiscated under the operation of this law." In England such a thing would lead to the most interminable waste; but to an infinitely greater degree would that be the case with a population who are accustomed to rely, not so much upon their own exertions, as upon any casual means for providing against the distress of the hour, utterly regardless of the future. There are two other points, my Lords, which I venture to suggest for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. The first is one which I consider all-important, if you mean really to have any check whatever against a profligate expenditure of the rates. That which Government proposes now to do, is to make the assessments, and to throw the burden of taxation upon whole unions. Now, my Lords, I know that, on the other hand, proposals have been made to throw the burdens of taxation upon the townlands. That, however, I consider impracticable, because they are infinitely too small—some of them, I know, do not contain above forty or fifty acres; and the idea of an assessment upon such townlands is ridiculous. On the other hand, I am inclined to think that electoral divisions are rather too large; I think they are too large to give a sufficient scope to individual responsibility for the management of the property within them. But I am sure of this, that if you still further extend the liability of the proprietors, and from the electoral divisions throw the burden of outdoor relief and of general taxation upon the unions of Ireland, from that moment there is an end of all inducement on the part of the landed proprietors to take the smallest concern in the management of their own property. I speak, my Lords, as an Irish proprietor — as one to some degree interested; you must take, therefore, my statement as coming from an interested person. But when I say, I speak

1345
as an Irish proprietor, notwithstanding all the advantages attendant upon that position, yet whether I should continue so, if this provision is introduced into this Bill, is a matter on which I should hesitate to pronounce any opinion before your Lordships. There is one more point I would urge upon your Lordships' consideration; and I think it is one of sufficient importance to require, rather that it should be noticed at this early period, than that it should be discussed when we come to consider the provisions of the more permanent measure. It is the insertion of a legislative declaration which in England would appear to be uncalled for, because I believe the public sense of every board of guardians would practically call it into effect—I mean a declaration to the effect, that no man shall be deemed destitute and entitled to relief, and that no board of guardians shall have the right of conferring relief upon any person who at the time is the occupier of, or is in possession of, land—I do not say land sufficient for a garden, or half an acre of land, or specify any amount; but I say—and I am sure I shall have the concurrence of nine out of every ten men practically acquainted with Ireland, that you will ruin the country if you once sanction the union in one person of the two characters of pauper and farmer. I do not deny that there are not many of the small occupiers in Ireland who are not in as great distress as any class of the people; but, I think, if you have no restriction with regard to the law, the board of guardians will say, "Oh, poor fellow, he is worse off than any of us;" and the consequence will be, that a great portion of the funds of the parish will be given during one half of the year to persons who during the other half are cultivating their two or three acres of ground. At the same time, can it be imagined that anything can be more mischievous—that anything could tend more to prevent and to retard the improvement of Ireland, to obstruct improved cultivation, and to interfere with the value of property, than an enactment which provides that persons with two, three, four, or five acres of land, should continue to hold that land, employing no labour, but themselves deriving assistance from the rates of that parish the value of whose land they are hourly diminishing? A return has been laid upon the Table of your Lordships' House which I have not yet seen, but which states that there are 883,000 occupiers of land in Ireland, and that of that number there are no
1346
less than 400,000 and upwards who occupy less than seven acres each. Now, that state of things is of itself a permanent obstacle to the improvement of land in Ireland, God forbid that I should recommend extensive clearances, whilst such pieces of land afford the sole subsistence of the persons who hold them; but when you make a provision by law for all the destitute—when you tax the country for their relief, it seems to me only reasonable, nay, only absolutely necessary, that those men should have the option tendered them, "Will you receive relief upon condition of surrendering the land which you hold, or no relief?" If the number of those holders could thus be diminished, and if they would fall into the class of labourers, subsisting on wages, and failing that, on parochial alms, I am satisfied that would be the first and a necessary stop to the improvement of Ireland and the maintenance of its people. And, unless some such rule be rigidly enforced, whilst I admit the principle that land and property ought to assist poverty and destitution, yet I say you cannot call upon property to discharge its duties, unless it has its rights; and among the rights of property is the right of the landlord to improve his own land, instead of seeing it permanently occupied by a tenantry incapable of improving the soil, or even of earning their own subsistence from it—unless, my Lords, I say, some such rights are enforced and secured to property, whatever you may do the result will be, not only immediate ruin to the landed proprietors, but the ultimate aggravation of those evils which at the present moment press so heavily upon the people of Ireland. I trust, my Lords, you will excuse me if I have upon this occasion, when the measure is not before the House, rather preferred to throw out a suggestion or two upon points which must come under consideration hereafter, than to wait till the Bill comes before us, to bring them before your Lordships in the shape of positive Amendments. I desire that the Government should take time to consider whether there is any weight in the observations I have made. I would not for a moment interfere with this temporary provision; but when you make this temporary provision—when, without the slightest hesitation, all you ask is conceded, to relieve the temporary distress—then, when a heavy additional burden is to be imposed, it is well we should look at the provisions which the Legislature has made to meet a different state

1347
of things—that we should see that the machinery which may have been safe for the one is safe for the other—that we should see that other provisions are introduced which are not called for by the present state of things, but which will be required if you are about to make so great a social revolution as is involved in the introduction of a new poor law into Ireland—and further, that we should see that the checks and prudential measures which are to be adopted for the purposes of humanity shall not be turned ultimately to the purpose, first, of the confiscation of landed property, and next, of aggravating the misery of the people of Ireland.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELdid not object to the Bill, but observed, that all the rates would fall upon little more than 500,000 occupiers. The noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) had spoken of the readiness with which the Irish poor took to begging; but the fact was, that the average earning of the peasantry of Ireland did not exceed from 2s. to 2s. 6d. per week, and the consequence was that they were never able to provide against scarcity. The Irish were not idle when they had English wages and English food. It had been given in evidence before the Poor Law Commissioners in 1836, that the wives and children of persons receiving these miserable wages were obliged to beg, but that they did so reluctantly and with great shame.
EARL FITZWILLIAMdid not rise to add anything to what had fallen from the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), but merely to express his concurrence in all that that noble Lord had said. He thought all their Lordships who were desirous that the question should be properly understood, must be grateful to the noble Lord; and he now rose to express his entire acquiescence in every opinion which the noble Lord had uttered relative to that other measure which they might shortly expect from the House of Commons. He wished to give an instance by way of exemplification of the danger to which the noble Lord had referred, of vesting absolutely the power of relief in the hands of persons such as the noble Lord had described as likely, unless some alteration were made, to form the boards of guardians. When he (Earl Fitzwilliam) was in Ireland, in autumn last, he attended what was called "a relief committee." The first person who applied to be put on the public works—which was, in point of fact, neither more nor less than applying for relief—was one who was then
1348
in the occupation of thirty or forty acres of land. He must do the committee the justice to say that there was a general concurrence in regarding the man as ineligible; but the decision was not come to without a very strong and touching appeal to them from the priest, who stated what no doubt was true enough, that that man was in very great distress, in as great distress as any of the numerous applicants for relief.
LORD MONTEAGLEwished, in common with his noble Friend, to return his most unfeigned and most earnest thanks to the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) for the observations and suggestions he had offered to the House. He wished to call the attention of their Lordships, however, to one or two points in the Bill then before the House. With the numerous calls upon their time, it was quite impossible that the heads of the poor-law department, and of the constabulary, could properly attend to the provisions of this Act as was intended; and he would suggest to Her Majesty's Government that they should make the Bill effective by the introduction of some other persons who could devote the whole of their time to it. He entirely concurred in the remarks of his noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) as to the constitution of boards of guardians, and he would throw out a suggestion relative to the constitution of relief committees. The letter of Sir George Grey recognized the fact, that very large contributions had been made independent of the relief committees; if, therefore, the Government wished to promote subscriptions, parties who had subscribed a given sum should be allowed to become the administrators or controllers of their own alms. And this would, he believed, very greatly increase its amount. He very much doubted, if the alternative of electoral or union rating were adopted, whether it would be found advantageous. Before sitting down, he wished to say he could never give his consent to this Bill, if it were not to be a strictly temporary measure. If out-door relief was to be introduced as a principle in the law of the land, it behoved Parliament to pause, and to review its legislation—to see the effect that principle had produced in England and Scotland, and to hesitate long before venturing upon the experiment of its introduction into Ireland. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had drawn a distinction between the people of Ireland and the people of Scotland, much to the advantage of the latter; but what had been the result the very first year of this principle being introduced into Scotland?

1349
for if the principle of out-door relief had failed in Scotland, it would fail much more certainly in Ireland. He referred to the opinions of Sir George Sinclair, a mutual Friend of the noble Lord's and himself, who had addressed the following letter to the Poor Law Commissioners in Scotland from the county of Caithness:—
"I am extremely sorry to be so often troublesome, but I have this day been desired by a meeting of the ratepayers of this parish, at which I presided to request the board of supervision to inform us, whether in the event of our uniting with one or two adjacent parishes to form a union and erect a workhouse, it will be in the option of the local board to determine in each case whether a pauper shall be maintained here, and, in the event of his refusing to comply, to withhold public assistance from him; or whether it shall be in the power of every pauper to decline going to the workhouse, and insist upon an out-door allowance. In the latter case, it would be quite useless, we believe, to have recourse to this expedient, however otherwise desirable, in order to prevent idleness, check insolence, and avert ruin. The rate here already exceeds 800 l. per annum, with every prospect of increase, especially as in this, and I believe every other parish, there are incendiaries at work to stir up the paupers against the payers, and lead them to imagine that none of them should take less than sixpence per day for each, being a larger amount than any of them ever earned by labour, if that sum were given to both the parents of every family, besides, extra allowance for children. In the course of a very few years, unless some plan be taken to prevent it, the greater part of the rental and means of this county will be absorbed in the maintenance of pauperism, as, besides new applications, there are very great numbers on the roll here who attend at every meeting to ask for an increase."
Now he contended that that which was dangerous in Scotland could not be safe in Ireland. He would throw no difficulty in the way of the present Bill passing; but if the Poor Law Bill were open to the objections to which his noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) had called attention, no power on earth ought to induce their Lordships not to give every opposition to the principle of it.
LORD BROUGHAMexplained. His great apprehension of the poor law was, that giving parties a claim of right to outdoor relief, destroyed the character of the people from the very foundation. A person who would be ashamed to beg, according to the common acceptation, was not at all ashamed to claim relief as a right.
LORD CAMPBELLwas afraid that all over the world people would be found who would rather be idle than work; and he was convinced that the offer of gratuitous relief was universally demoralizing. He had no apprehension, however, of any Bill
1350
being presented to their Lordships which would give the able-bodied a right to outdoor relief. He mentioned this to calm the fears of his noble Friend. The operation of the Bill was this—the funds out of which the electoral district was to receive assistance in the first instance were union funds; the union guardians would take care to have money in hand for purposes of this sort, to answer the warrant of the Lord Lieutenant; but there need not be more than one assessment upon the union for the year or six months. The Bill therefore was not liable to the objections which had been stated.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied: He entirely concurred with the view taken by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley); but their Lordships would remember that on introducing the Bill in the first instance, he stated in the strongest terms that, in itself, he conceived it to be most objectionable. This declaration could not be too often repeated, because he knew from experience that objectionable principles sometimes crept into legislation which afterwards became permanent, without those who made them being aware, in the first instance, of the magnitude of the evil. In the present case the objectionable principle was justifiable because it was necessary, and only because it was necessary. It was called for, for a short period, in consequence of the greatest pressure upon the whole nation; and the Government could not contemplate the rapid increase of destitution in Ireland without venturing to apply a temporary and partial, but he hoped, in some degree, an efficient remedy. Throughout the whole discussion on this subject, in that and the other House of Parliament, no one had denied the evil, and no one had suggested any other mode of diminishing a pressure which, unless relieved, would lead to the extinction of life in hundreds and thousands of instances. The Relief Act was said to have failed. Certainly there had been abuses arising from it; but he believed that if that Act had not been passed, half a million or a million of persons would, by the present time, have perished in Ireland for want of sustenance. In that event, both Houses of Parliament and Her Majesty's Government would have been responsible for not having endeavoured to procure some mitigation of the evil. The cases of abuse were exceptionable. He was in possession of letters which would show that the works executed under the Labour-rate Act had been useful

1351
and good—that many essential improvements were being made under it, leading to increased means for the employment of the people, and to permanent advantage. He therefore did not admit the unqualified condemnation which had been pronounced on that Act, though he did admit that it had been abused. With regard to the present Bill, it was felt impossible to define its limits strictly; but there were the greatest safeguards against abuses in cases where they could not be attempted by positive rules. He should not, however, have proposed it, had it not been accompanied by other measures for the purpose of stimulating a demand for labour, and for diminishing the pressure on charity. These measures must shortly be brought before their Lordships, and the noble Lord opposite had only done his duty to that House whilst he had rendered acceptable service to Her Majesty's Government, by throwing out the important suggestions he had. In many of those suggestions, he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) entirely concurred. More particularly he conceived, that any Bill for the introduction of a poor law into Ireland would require a reconsideration of the constitution of boards of guardians, and that greater security must be found for property in that institution if their Lordships expected the law to be carefully, property, and satisfactorily administered. This consideration was left open. With regard to the division of districts with the view of rating, he repeated there was no intention of committing Parliament on this question. He would by no means discourage the efforts of proprietors, upon which depended the restoration of due and wholesome labour in Ireland, and the execution of those great national improvements which the unhappy failure of the one sole article of subsistence, and the necessity of substituting others, required, before the country could be reclaimed. Out-door relief, which it was not intended to admit as a right, would be the subversion of all property. None, therefore, would be given, except under the greatest safeguards, which safeguards would receive the most mature consideration. The noble Lord suggested that parties in the possession of land should not be entitled to relief; and he had been reminded that relief would not be given in England or Scotland under such circumstances. He repeated it was intended to administer out-door relief only under such safeguards as Parliament might require. Caution, however, was essential in carrying
1352
out this provision. The tendency of all the Government measures would be to diminish by insensible means the number of small tenants, for if any number of small tenants could be induced to place themselves in the situation of labourers, a great benefit would be secured both to the class themselves and to the country. In conclusion, he could see no difficulty in inserting in the Bill some clause to this effect; and he would give the subject his best consideration, being firmly persuaded that, in practice, relief ought not to be given to those who possessed land.
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned at half-past Nine o'clock.
The following Protest against the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill was entered on the Journals:—
DISSENTIENT—

1. Because this Bill is based on the principle that it is the duty of a Government to provide food for the people, and I consider this principle false in theory, and as leading to injustice and disastrous consequences if attempted in practice. It is false in theory, as being, in the natural state of things, utterly impracticable, the Government having no store of food wherewith to supply the people, or funds for providing the same. In practice, it leads to injustice and disastrous consequences, because such funds can be obtained only by taxation; and if the taxes are levied (as they ought and profess to be) equally on all, the whole will be taxed to supply the wants of a part; the consequences of which must be, that some persons on the verge of destitution will be thus reduced to the same state as those whom they are taxed to relieve, and that those who by prudence and industry have raised themselves out of the reach of want, will be taxed for the relief of the improvident and idle.

2. Because it is dangerous for a Government to take any step which is calculated to instil into the minds of the people the belief that they need not rely on their own exertions for their well-being, and a hope that if they omit to take proper care of themselves, it will relieve their necessities, and gratuitously support them.

3. Because the Irish people are of a temperament peculiarly likely to be so misled.

4. Because experience, both in Ireland and in England, under the old administration of the poor law, proves that the attempt to provide gratuitously for the needy, is in its result dangerous to property and to the independence and well-being of the people, and injurious to none more than to those very persons whose benefit is thereby sought, by superseding the necessity, and thus repressing the energy, of their own exertions to help themselves—by diverting them from those resources which the pressure of want would disclose—and, above all, by teaching them to rely on external aid; which, as it cannot be efficient in extent, or permanent in duration, will finally leave them disappointed and discontented, and more destitute and helpless than before.

1353

5. Because I fear, if this measure be adopted, it will necessarily lead to other measures of a similar nature, and that though some present relief may be given to existing misery and destitution, it will lead hereafter to an alarming increase of the evils thus temporarily mitigated, and that therefore, though feelings of the most praiseworthy and benevolent character prompt its adoption, prudence, reason, and true wisdom would reject it.

6. Because charity is a proper motive for the private conduct of individuals, but justice the paramount duty of a Government; and because charity to some on the part of the latter, works out present injustice to others, and ultimately evil to all.

RADNOR.